Many have seen our 0-9 start as proof that we are far way away from a premiership or atleast a top 4 position...

i don't necessarily think this is true. this year is shot...no doubt about that...however i strongly believe next season we could easily go straight from bottom 4 into top 4.

i think we are not too far away, and the deficiencies we have, we are in the process of strengthening. with a top 4 draft pick next season, and another season of experience into a stack of young players, and we could fly back up the ladder next year.

remember that we didn't make finals in 1999, and in 2000 we made a GF! it can happen!

1) next season we will have another year of experience into Bate, Pettard, Frawley, Sylvia, Bell, Bartram, N.Jones, Dunn and P.Johnson. It is very possible that all these 9 players will be in our starting 18 next season, how exciting does that sound. All these players are capable of being great, not just good...in the long run, players like Ward, Brown, Holland and Wheatley won't even be a shade of these players. all these youngsters are improving each week, and this season will be important for their development so they can be solid contributers every week next season

2) players like Carrol, Whelan, Mclean, Bruce, Green, Johnstone, Robertson, Rivers and Davey will all officially be strong senior players (no longer considered young, or inexperienced or weak) All these players have shown strong improvement this year despite our terrible start. i am particularly happy with Carrol, Bruce and davey this year, Green and johnstone have been pretty good and are important to our team and the others can be let off due to injury, but will be stronger and fitter next season with preseasons under their belt. don't forget Moloney could be another addition if he can get his body right and Miller if he can get his game under control.

3) our older players are still strong enough to make very solid contribution, however they are no longer the be all and end all. next season they will offer experience, leadership and guidence, without the pressure that it all falls onto them. These players include Neitz, McDonald, Yze, Pickett, Holland and Bizzel.

4) our dead wood will be delisted and to replace them will be a number of high draft picks (there could be 4 picks in the top 35 next year!) Ward, Brown, Wheatley, Ferguson and Jamar all all ggaawwwnnnn and Neville has been a low draft pick that hasn't come off.

5) we will still have a number of youngsters that will push into the team putting pressure for spots. Newton, C.Johnson, Kruiser!!! and Warnock will be pushing strongly to play...plus there will always be godfrey to come into the team and do a solid job for us when required. I love the guy despite all his deficiencies

i reckon we are the one club that can definitely say...'there's always next year.' We definitely still have a chance to go for the premiership in the next 3 years imo despite this disaster of a season. We can take this season as an abberation, use it to develop our players, and pick up a 199cm Ruckman/Key position future champion in the draft

remember 98, went from the wooden spoon to almost grand finalists, it can happen

Yeah, Geelong was terrible last year and they are powering along at the moment, and 1998 - we even beat the eventual premiers during the finals.

A lot of football just depends on luck. Injuries, close games (with a touch luck we could have been 3 and 6 and not out of it), the umpire's whistle. Most of the time you make your own luck, but sometimes it is simply luck. We have had none this year.

If we return to the last year's aggressive tackling and direct style of play I think we can go straight to the top 4. Even though a few of our senior players are letting us down at the moment, you'd be amazed what confidence can do. When the team is losing, it doesn't matter how your own form is, your confidence drops. The team I currently play with hasn't won a game this season either and everyone's confidence is down, even our best players each week feel like they have played so much better in the past. I've feel like I've never played worse in my life.

I'm confident we will be back with a vengence next year.

i think it is a massive possibility

Let's face it, we can't play a lot worse or have as bad a run with injuries next year!

There is only one way to go from where we are now.

rather be on the bottom than 15th, but what can you do

the question is, do we want to continue the crapness for the year, or win more games than we lose from here on in and finish high in the bottom eight?

I'd rather keep winning games & finish as high as we can. I don't know if I can take anymore of this crap football.

I reckon our future HAS TO BE bright. Taking injuries out of it, anyone can see the massive error we made in the pre-season leading into Round 1. Lets hope we take a different attitude into next season.

Maybe have a look at last years tapes!!!!

i think we are not too far away, and the deficiencies we have, we are in the process of strengthening.

Are we?

We still lack a key defender and I imagine that next year Holland will be less effective than he is now (should he be retained). I don't see Warnock of Frawley able to step into a bona fide key defender role in 2008 and imagine Ferguson will be old news.

Our ruck stocks are still dire and even if we draft a young gun ruck there's no guarantee that a young tall can come in and play AFL footy straight up. White will also be another year older and the alternatives are Jamar (will he be listed?), PJ, and Neaves.

While I quite like our midfield it lacks leg speed, and while our young mids look really promising none of them are that quick - Moloney, McLean, Jones, etc.

Our young players will still be prone to inconsistency by virtue of their age and inexperience, and a conservative estimate puts them at about half our 'best 22' right now - and more next year I'd imagine.

Considering the potential decline or retirements due to old age and the upside of our inexperienced players, and taking into account the horrific injury run we've had, I do think we'll be a better team in '08. However, we were too optimistic before this year and it seems we might be once again

Are we?

We still lack a key defender and I imagine that next year Holland will be less effective than he is now (should he be retained). I don't see Warnock of Frawley able to step into a bona fide key defender role in 2008 and imagine Ferguson will be old news.

Our ruck stocks are still dire and even if we draft a young gun ruck there's no guarantee that a young tall can come in and play AFL footy straight up. White will also be another year older and the alternatives are Jamar (will he be listed?), PJ, and Neaves.

While I quite like our midfield it lacks leg speed, and while our young mids look really promising none of them are that quick - Moloney, McLean, Jones, etc.

Our young players will still be prone to inconsistency by virtue of their age and inexperience, and a conservative estimate puts them at about half our 'best 22' right now - and more next year I'd imagine.

Considering the potential decline or retirements due to old age and the upside of our inexperienced players, and taking into account the horrific injury run we've had, I do think we'll be a better team in '08. However, we were too optimistic before this year and it seems we might be once again

in terms of key defenders, i am confident we have found a player in Frawley. other than him we already have 2 quality key backs in rivers and carrol. (i am becoming a big fan of carrol). as i see it now our main problem is the 3rd defender. at the moment holland, bizzel or warnock are capable of filing the role, and long term it will be Frawley or maybe even Warnock

it terms of rucks, i agree we have a problem post white, however while white is around i believe P.Johnson is a very capable 2nd ruckman... it terms of finding a future replacement number 1 ruckman in 3 years time for when white retires, i believe we will recruit a ruckamn next year (Kruiser possibly) and neaves could be long term...but the point is that if we're talking about next couple of years, then while White is still around, then P.J is quickl improving to becoming a very good second ruckman.

about leg speed in the midfield, i think you'll find that our lack of midfield speed looks worse because we are losing. jones, mclean, and green are not slow players, they just look ordinary in terms of speed when we lose every week. when we start winning i dont think leg speed will be such a problem...

i honestly dont think leg speed is something we have to worry about...i think were more likely to win games of football if we winn the overall clearences for a match and have relatively fast players...we lost clearences 36-22 against the kangaroos...id argue that was more a reason we lost than leg speed

If you're talking short-term then Frawley is probably neither here nor there when it comes to key defenders, and whether he'll have a big impact in the short-term as a 'third tall' type is also arguable although I'm optimistic. When it comes to other defenders you've mentioned, I'm not sure what the output of Bizzell and Holland will be in two years time...I'd be mildly surprised if they were both on the list for 2008 tbh, and more surprised if either was around in 2009.

It's fine to assert that I'm commenting on leg speed simply because we're being beaten, but I said the same thing at the end of last year (after we made the second round of finals) too Green, McLean, and Jones might not be slow but they're not the quickest guys going around either, and neither are the likes of McDonald, Bruce, Bartram, Godfrey, TJ, Moloney, and even Bate & Sylvia if you swing that way. I imagine Ward's run was a prime factor in him playing so many games in '06, and Davey's pace would also be a factor in why we're pushing him up the ground (something I seem to recall ND has mentioned in the past).

While White may go for another 3 years it's just as possible age will increase the speed of a decline that started when the ruck rules were changed. We're then left in all sorts of trouble short-term when you look at our current ruck stocks. Even factoring in some quality young talls being recruited the next two years they're not the kind of players that tend to dominate at 18 or 19.

we lost clearences 36-22 against the kangaroos...id argue that was more a reason we lost than leg speed

You're arguing a point I never made - I never said leg speed was more important than getting clearances.