54 minutes ago, Jara said:

At Post 100, where you dragged up a list of terrible things done by fundamentalist Jihadis as if all Muslims were responsible.

 

You couldn't even bring yourself to spare a comma on the fact that there are hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens who were born into the Muslim faith and who are just going about their daily lives trying to get by. I was joking about my nephew - but unless we reach out with friendship and understanding towards the overwhelming majority, things will only get worse.

 

I can't be bothered reading over this whole thread, but you do give the occasional indication that you are well-read - if you are, it puzzles me that you can make such simplistic generalizations.   

I acknowledge there are are around 400,000 muslims in Australia,the majority of which have low paid jobs,if they do work,and who want nothing to do with politics.

You must also realize there are plenty sitting around smoking the Shisha ,breeding away on centrelink, then complaining about our foreign affairs.Their money should be cut.

I know a few Muslims myself and I don't seek to demonise those here .

Having said that,how on earth that mate of Eddies from Broady gets $5.6 mill to run the Postal Service is something I cannot fathom.

25 minutes ago, Biffen said:

The Geneva convention is worthless as evidenced by the fact that it gets re-written every 25 years or so.

The treatment of spies and prisoners of war is the business of the nation holding them.

Whatever conventions signed before hand get tossed out the window during.

Why fight with one hand behind your back ?

Western civilization gets a little squeamish about it because we are the only decent chaps that consider decency toward the enemy.

Thanks for answering my question Biff................. not.  So what about Apartheid,  Ceausescu and Milosovic, the final independence of East Timor, initiated under a UN sponsored agreement in 1999 and Indonesia's involvement, the previous support by the US of Saddam Hussain during the Iran/Iraq war?  Remember Ollie North?

20 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Thanks for answering my question Biff................. not.  So what about Apartheid,  Ceausescu and Milosovic, the final independence of East Timor, initiated under a UN sponsored agreement in 1999 and Indonesia's involvement, the previous support by the US of Saddam Hussain during the Iran/Iraq war?  Remember Ollie North?

Do you think if these people had signed a bit of paper it would change the way they operated?

You bring up many issues at once as though they are my fault, or the fault of those that hold a similar opinion on Muslim immigration,when you are not throwing in every available "ism" in a blind array of accusations.

There is a popular international movement to stop immigration into Western,civilized,secular,decent society, except in Canada,where they have a 2nd generation political parasite as Prime Minister.

There are around 51 majority Muslim nations across the world Muslims can immigrate to.

History has shown Islam doesn't fit in with us drinking,dancing,thinking types.

Why you bring up these other things I'll never understand.

We start off talking about say Lawn Bowls, then you'll drag in Nick Kyrgios (what a legend) and we move on to the electric chair and the Watts riots.

There is no logic left in much of what you have to say on this ONE issue .

 

 

10 minutes ago, Biffen said:

Do you think if these people had signed a bit of paper it would change the way they operated?

You bring up many issues at once as though they are my fault, or the fault of those that hold a similar opinion on Muslim immigration,when you are not throwing in every available "ism" in a blind array of accusations.

There is a popular international movement to stop immigration into Western,civilized,secular,decent society, except in Canada,where they have a 2nd generation political parasite as Prime Minister.

There are around 51 majority Muslim nations across the world Muslims can immigrate to.

History has shown Islam doesn't fit in with us drinking,dancing,thinking types.

Why you bring up these other things I'll never understand.

We start off talking about say Lawn Bowls, then you'll drag in Nick Kyrgios (what a legend) and we move on to the electric chair and the Watts riots.

There is no logic left in much of what you have to say on this ONE issue .

 

 

Amazing quantum leap right there. Islam does not fit in.  If what you said weren't so egregious, it would almost be funny.  So the mosques which have existed in the northern suburbs of Melbourne since the 60' s have always been a source of unrest and disharmony?  So the likes of Ahmed Fahour - despite his inflated salary - , MP, Ed Husic, sports agent, Khoder Nasser, the late John Ilhan - founder of Crazy John's, Australian Navy Captain Mona Shindy, Bachar Houli, refugee and cricketer Fawad Ahmed, Usman Khawaja, Waleed Aly, comedian Nazeem Hussain and our own Adem Yze are all raving and ranting radical Muslims are they?

4 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Amazing quantum leap right there. Islam does not fit in.  If what you said weren't so egregious, it would almost be funny.  So the mosques which have existed in the northern suburbs of Melbourne since the 60' s have always been a source of unrest and disharmony?  So the likes of Ahmed Fahour - despite his inflated salary - , MP, Ed Husic, sports agent, Khoder Nasser, the late John Ilhan - founder of Crazy John's, Australian Navy Captain Mona Shindy, Bachar Houli, refugee and cricketer Fawad Ahmed, Usman Khawaja, Waleed Aly, comedian Nazeem Hussain and our own Adem Yze are all raving and ranting radical Muslims are they?

The short answer to that is no they are not.

Waleed aside,whom i consider a duplicitous and populist ,smarmy little twit.

The rest were/are trying to make an honest buck, or $5.6 million per year .

Crazy John made his money from trailing commissions on handsets and telephony contracts, which was within the law back then and isn't now.Those stupid enough to purchase a sparkling new phone from him would know that.I don't begrudge him his millions although he ain't around to spend it.

Your second sentence was correct.

It's the only sentence you've written with any clarity.

Oh and on Mosques-they all preach the hateful,vengeful,outdated doctrine that seeks to destroy and replace us.

I urge you to flip through the text it preaches and consider if it fits in to your thinking.

16 minutes ago, Biffen said:

The short answer to that is no they are not.

Waleed aside,whom i consider a duplicitous and populist ,smarmy little twit.

The rest were/are trying to make an honest buck, or $5.6 million per year .

Crazy John made his money from trailing commissions on handsets and telephony contracts, which was within the law back then and isn't now.Those stupid enough to purchase a sparkling new phone from him would know that.I don't begrudge him his millions although he ain't around to spend it.

Your second sentence was correct.

It's the only sentence you've written with any clarity.

Oh and on Mosques-they all preach the hateful,vengeful,outdated doctrine that seeks to destroy and replace us.

I urge you to flip through the text it preaches and consider if it fits in to your thinking.

That is simply factually false.  You're losing the plot I fear Biff and you are overtly showing your innate prejudice.

21 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

That is simply factually false.  You're losing the plot I fear Biff and you are overtly showing your innate prejudice.

Read the Hadiths.

 

1 minute ago, Biffen said:

Read the Hadiths.

 

The Hadiths are not empirical and there is no overall agreement on them.  Different groups and different individual scholars may classify Hadith differently.  To cite particular religious texts and then attempt to infer that they apply with universality is simply spurious.  It is analogous to asserting that the Old Testament edict of an eye for an eye, is the core of Christianity, when it is clearly not.

i think the argument would make more sense if it wasn't just a flat no/yes muslim immigration discussion

i think an appreciable % of people would be satisfied with a smaller more targeted figure allowing for a easier and smoother integration path. after all successful integration is the end goal. we don't want to create societies, you see elsewhere, where we have ethnic ghettos because we overstress the system too rapidly

if the argument stays a black and white one we just argue in circles. immigration has been very successful in australia embracing many cultures with a high level of integration over a number of generations. that doesn't mean that you can just keep cranking it up (either in total or by ethnic group) without affecting the social fabric  at some point. each migrating ethnic group has their own difficulties settling in, adapting and ultimately integrating. there is no one size fits all process for all ethnicities. that's why a slowly, slowly approach can have merit.

but what would i know

27 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i think the argument would make more sense if it wasn't just a flat no/yes muslim immigration discussion

i think an appreciable % of people would be satisfied with a smaller more targeted figure allowing for a easier and smoother integration path. after all successful integration is the end goal. we don't want to create societies, you see elsewhere, where we have ethnic ghettos because we overstress the system too rapidly

if the argument stays a black and white one we just argue in circles. immigration has been very successful in australia embracing many cultures with a high level of integration over a number of generations. that doesn't mean that you can just keep cranking it up (either in total or by ethnic group) without affecting the social fabric  at some point. each migrating ethnic group has their own difficulties settling in, adapting and ultimately integrating. there is no one size fits all process for all ethnicities. that's why a slowly, slowly approach can have merit.

but what would i know

You make very good points DC.  I remember in the 60's my conservative parents saying things like, they come here and live in their own communities.  They refuse to learn English. They smell of garlic and they bring their troubles here.  These are the Italian, Greeks and Slavs.  Such ignorance still exists today,  which is quite evident, so nothing much has changed in that regard.  However, any reasonable reading of the Government's own and published statistics on Immigration clearly show that net migration has gone down in this country over the last 15 years and has an inverse relationship to the employment rate.  Interestingly though, Governments of all colours struggle to balance budgets, due to an ageing population, an erosion of the tax base and a decline in productivity.  Despite the urban myths, migration has made a huge contribution in this country to GDP and they manage to find work and pay tax.  Go figure. 

25 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

You make very good points DC.  I remember in the 60's my conservative parents saying things like, they come here and live in their own communities.  They refuse to learn English. They smell of garlic and they bring their troubles here.  These are the Italian, Greeks and Slavs.  Such ignorance still exists today,  which is quite evident, so nothing much has changed in that regard.  However, any reasonable reading of the Government's own and published statistics on Immigration clearly show that net migration has gone down in this country over the last 15 years and has an inverse relationship to the employment rate.  Interestingly though, Governments of all colours struggle to balance budgets, due to an ageing population, an erosion of the tax base and a decline in productivity.  Despite the urban myths, migration has made a huge contribution in this country to GDP and they manage to find work and pay tax.  Go figure. 

are these stats inclusive of refugee numbers or just normal immigration?

 

 

26 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

are these stats inclusive of refugee numbers or just normal immigration?

All Migration.  Net Migration Numbers.

48 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

 

 

All Migration.  Net Migration Numbers.

i suppose however this is somewhat mitigated by an increase in working visas and illegal stayovers (since 15 years ago)

26 minutes ago, daisycutter said:

i suppose however this is somewhat mitigated by an increase in working visas and illegal stayovers (since 15 years ago)

Illegal stay overs have always been an issue and by default are not migrants.  Most overstayers coming from the UK and Europe.  Working visas are only temporary visas in any event

21 minutes ago, iv'a worn smith said:

Illegal stay overs have always been an issue and by default are not migrants.  Most overstayers coming from the UK and Europe.  Working visas are only temporary visas in any event

i only mentioned it in the context of how it impacts/skews on the employed figures and your previous comment of nett migration and the "inverse relationship to the employment rate

statistics are not all what they seem

of course, too we also know that the way they measure emmployed/unemployed has changed (deceitfully) since 15 years ago

at the end of the day we often end up with apples and oranges as it suits our political masters

I mean I can get behind strict border protection as an unfortunate byproduct of 9/11, but I think vetting shouldn't target any one people(s). But having said that, the vetting should be vigorous, as it clearly is, and I don't think there should be restrictions on anyone who wants to settle peacefully. 

I'm not sure about numbers for an adequate target, but it should be based on identifiable evidence. We're not in a situation like Europe, fortunately, so we have no excuse not to have higher targets than many European countries. 

The most important thing when talking about resettlement is the potential for jobs and community. Jobs for livelihoods and community to keep one grounded, accountable and their mental health in check.

Lastly, the processing conditions on which asylum seekers and anyone awaiting entry to the country for permanent residence experience, should be humane, access to proper health and care should be provided and it should most certainly be based on shore.

We have a long way to go with our foreign policy and relations in particular with Indonesia, who we should be working with rigorously, to ensure we cut off the people smugglers before they even step foot inside a boat. That may require a joint financial contribution by both nations to programs and education that will deter, but in the long run, it will help stop the boats. Don't just tell them that they're taking the asylum seekers. That's arrogant and not good enough. Not only that, if our processing is humane, it decreases the chances of desperate people trying to get in boats and risking their lives because the alternative is potentially worse.

 

DC - always sensible

AF- coming around from luvvy culture and starting to think seriously.

IWS- lost in a reaction to his parental racism.

ME- happy you are all questioning your own tired thought processes .

7 hours ago, iv'a worn smith said:

The Hadiths are not empirical and there is no overall agreement on them.  Different groups and different individual scholars may classify Hadith differently.  To cite particular religious texts and then attempt to infer that they apply with universality is simply spurious.  It is analogous to asserting that the Old Testament edict of an eye for an eye, is the core of Christianity, when it is clearly not.

There is the Hadith/s, One text ,already argued over then set in stone after the prophets death for two centuries.

It is without a doubt a doctrine for war and conquest.

it is not  nearly as nice as the main text I'll grant you, but it is the way of the great prophet, who cannot be cartooned.

5 hours ago, iv'a worn smith said:

You make very good points DC.  I remember in the 60's my conservative parents saying things like, they come here and live in their own communities.  They refuse to learn English. They smell of garlic and they bring their troubles here.  These are the Italian, Greeks and Slavs.  Such ignorance still exists today,  which is quite evident, so nothing much has changed in that regard.  However, any reasonable reading of the Government's own and published statistics on Immigration clearly show that net migration has gone down in this country over the last 15 years and has an inverse relationship to the employment rate.  Interestingly though, Governments of all colours struggle to balance budgets, due to an ageing population, an erosion of the tax base and a decline in productivity.  Despite the urban myths, migration has made a huge contribution in this country to GDP and they manage to find work and pay tax.  Go figure. 

Bulldust.

Do you think people want to retire in their mid 50's or they are forced to?

Migration contributes very little to the bottom line of our tax base.

Particularly non-english speakers with zero skills.

What stats , where and by whom?

Think before you spout.

Who sold you the myths and why?

Do we need more unskilled peoples believing an irrelevant doctrine from a 7th Century Bedouin?

Do you swallow govt stats as  true?

Where are the crime stats, the wife beating stats, the rape stats and the racial stats of the offenders?

Hidden .

 

4 hours ago, Biffen said:

DC - always sensible

AF- coming around from luvvy culture and starting to think seriously.

IWS- lost in a reaction to his parental racism.

ME- happy you are all questioning your own tired thought processes .

I haven't changed my stance here at all. I actually believe in the Third Way, but I put people first. If the leaders of the Third Way abandon people, I'll continue to put other human beings first and back further Left parties like the Greens or the Sex Party.

The other thing I want to make clear if it was missed in my last post, is that border protection should never be against a certain group of people. You clearly think it should be, so not sure we're on the same ground here.

4 hours ago, Biffen said:

Bulldust.

Do you think people want to retire in their mid 50's or they are forced to?

Migration contributes very little to the bottom line of our tax base.

Particularly non-english speakers with zero skills.

What stats , where and by whom?

Think before you spout.

Who sold you the myths and why?

Do we need more unskilled peoples believing an irrelevant doctrine from a 7th Century Bedouin?

Do you swallow govt stats as  true?

Where are the crime stats, the wife beating stats, the rape stats and the racial stats of the offenders?

Hidden .

 

Haha, Biffen asking for stats, sources and facts? Never thought I'd see the day. I don't think I've seen you cite a single source in any of your rantings thus far.

1 hour ago, A F said:

Haha, Biffen asking for stats, sources and facts? Never thought I'd see the day. I don't think I've seen you cite a single source in any of your rantings thus far.

You can't get the official and increased rape stats in Europe because they might offend a particular group.

 

12 hours ago, Biffen said:

Bulldust.

Do you think people want to retire in their mid 50's or they are forced to?

Migration contributes very little to the bottom line of our tax base.

Particularly non-english speakers with zero skills.

What stats , where and by whom?

Think before you spout.

Who sold you the myths and why?

Do we need more unskilled peoples believing an irrelevant doctrine from a 7th Century Bedouin?

Do you swallow govt stats as  true?

Where are the crime stats, the wife beating stats, the rape stats and the racial stats of the offenders?

Hidden .

 

Rofl.

My grandfather came here without knowing the language or any skills.

He has paid significant taxes over the last 70 years, given the income and assets he was able to build. He now pays almost none, but that's a function of our generous superannuation/pension system, not his status as an immigrant.

My wife and her entire family (5 people) came here not knowing the language, her father had rudimentary english skills but that's it. They all have good jobs, one in particular is a very high income earner, and pays significant amounts of tax.

A friend I went to high school with is the son of African immigrants. He now has a PhD in mathematics and earns a big money as an actuary for an insurance firm. Paying tax, to the benefit of us all.

 

But those are anecdotal. I had a look at the ABS to see if they had anything. Unfortunately the latest data I could find was from 09-10:

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/[email protected]/0/BBB9748FE6BD1FF6CA257EB50011C95E?OpenDocument

Average weekly earnings for migrants - $903.60 ($46,987.20 p/a)
Average weekly earnings for non-migrants - $977.10 ($50,809.20 p/a)

Now I don't know about you, but I reckon $70 per week off the average without knowing the language is pretty damn good.

It also indicates that they are paying their share of tax:

Estimated tax payable on above figure (migrants) - $7,462 p/a
Estimated tax payable on above figure (non-migrants) - $8,838 p/a

 

So there you go. The average migrant pays roughly $1,300 less tax than the average non-migrant.

Hardly adding "very little to our bottom line" as you say.

 

Think before you spout.

2 minutes ago, Choke said:

Rofl.

My grandfather came here without knowing the language or any skills.

He has paid significant taxes over the last 70 years, given the income and assets he was able to build. He now pays almost none, but that's a function of our generous superannuation/pension system, not his status as an immigrant.

My wife and her entire family (5 people) came here not knowing the language, her father had rudimentary english skills but that's it. They all have good jobs, one in particular is a very high income earner, and pays significant amounts of tax.

A friend I went to high school with is the son of African immigrants. He now has a PhD in mathematics and earns a big money as an actuary for an insurance firm. Paying tax, to the benefit of us all.

 

But those are anecdotal. I had a look at the ABS to see if they had anything. Unfortunately the latest data I could find was from 09-10:

http://www.abs.gov.au/Ausstats/[email protected]/0/BBB9748FE6BD1FF6CA257EB50011C95E?OpenDocument

Average weekly earnings for migrants - $903.60 ($46,987.20 p/a)
Average weekly earnings for non-migrants - $977.10 ($50,809.20 p/a)

Now I don't know about you, but I reckon $70 per week off the average without knowing the language is pretty damn good.

It also indicates that they are paying their share of tax:

Estimated tax payable on above figure (migrants) - $7,462 p/a
Estimated tax payable on above figure (non-migrants) - $8,838 p/a

 

So there you go. The average migrant pays roughly $1,300 less tax than the average non-migrant.

Hardly adding "very little to our bottom line" as you say.

 

Think before you spout.

Why here?

Were they Muslim?

Also consider this, 

If I want to migrate to Paris and enjoy the lifestyle there under Le Pen,Sarkozy or Kermit the Frog, do you think they'd just rubber stamp it?

Were your grandparents Muslim because thats the subject under discussion.

I'm not arguing about stopping all migration either Choker.

Stop conflating your mate in Africa with a discussion on Islamist values.

Most of Europe want Muslim immigration halted 

It's 71% in Poland down to about 48% in England who ticked the "strongly agree"column .The sample was 10,000 people.Survey /stats by Chatham House.

It's not a rare, bigoted,homophobic,KKK,anti-feminist,racist,hysterical or Xenophobic idea.

It's now a majority opinion.

Biff, you said:

Migration contributes very little to the bottom line of our tax base.

Particularly non-english speakers with zero skills.

 

 

I provided anecdotes and data contrary to that.

 

To answer your questions:

- I can't speak for the other examples, but my grandfather came here because the bloke he bribed in his village in Italy stuffed up. He was supposed to go to the USA, but the guy sent him here.

- My grandfather and and wife's family are not Muslum. The son of the African immigrants is - at least his parents are. He himself has no strong faith, this seems pretty common with first generation offspring. My grandfather and grandmother were Italian Catholics and raised their kids in that faith, but none of them are believers to the same level as their parents.

- No one is arguing against unfettered migration

- I note you are also not arguing the contrary, ie stopping all migration. My post was in response to your ignorant and patently untrue statement that migration contributes little to our tax bottom line.

- Mate from Africa was a relevant example as he is Muslim.

- Majority opinion can be wrong. I think you yourself used the flat earth example a few weeks ago? Might have been a different poster. I never said your opinion was rare or any of the other words you've used in your list - except racist. That's the one thing I did accuse you of (albeit a while back) and I haven't seen anything in your posts since that indicate to me that I was incorrect. A majority can be racist. As a history buff, I'm sure you at least concur with that. That doesn't make it right.