The Premiership Ruckman

[The Chazz 4,077]

I mentioned this in a different thread, but believe it's worth of it's own discussion.

We have one of the best Ruckman in the league. Regardless of our clearance stats, we are generally winning the hit out count, which means Jamar is getting first touch. If he can find the tap work that crippled Sydney in Round 1, he could again find himself as an AA.

So, with that in mind, who will be our Premiership Ruckman?

Obviously we drafted Big Max 2 years ago, and have also been developing Spencer. My concern is that when I think we are going to start to push for top 4, which will be most likely 2013+, Jamar is starting to get on a bit in age. In 2014, when we are hopefully a genuine contender, Russian will be 31 years old. This year he will play his 100th game, so roughly at the start of his AA year, he had racked up approx 80 games. Injuries have hindered his career at various stages.

My question is who is going to be our premiership ruckman? Obviously if we were to win it in 2014, Jamar at 31 will probably be it. But what if it takes a couple more years than that? Collingwood traded for Jolly last year, was quite dominant, and turned 29. You would expect that they picked him up with the hope that they would get 3 years out of him (meaning he will be 32-ish at the end of his career).

Also, the fact that we don't have a big bodied full forward that most, including myself, think we need, is it time that we unleash Maxy, Spencer or whoever puts their hand up, with the view that they will one day be our Premiership Ruckman, but in the mean time, provide that bigger body up forward that we dearly lack?

Let's say we try Maxy. Plays his first game this year, by the time 2014 comes around, he'll have around 80 games to his name (same amount as Jamar started with last year). In this time, opposition coaches will have to use one of their taller defenders on a 208cm giant. If they don't pay him any respect (ie put a taller defender on him, which is generally their better defender), regardless of his age, he will punsih them in a one on one. To make it easier for some of us to understand, using our defenders, who would you line up on a forward line consisting of Gawn, Jurrah, Watts, Petterd, Dunn and a small (let's say Aussie for the arguement)? In 2014, Max will be 23 years old.

I look at opposition teams that have gone through similar rebuilds that we have, and the obvious one is Carlton. They played Kreuzer virtually the year after he was drafted. They also paid very big dollars to get Warnock. I question why? What structure are they going to have in place to warrant having both Kreuzer and Warnock playing in the same team? 2 designated ruckman, both on big dollars. The answer is quite simple, especially with the sub rule this year - one will play full forward. Warnock is still developing, but has about 40 games to his credit, and is 24 years old. Suffered injuries most of last year, and also come from Fremantle where he was developing in Sandilands shadow. Kreuzer is 21 and has played 50+ games. When he comes back from injury, he will be in the team along with Warnock.

So, am I a year too early with my thinking that we need to blood a new ruckman this year? What harm is there in playing a Gawn or Spencer this year at Full Forward, that can have exposure to the ruck work when Jamar has a rest at Full Forward? The Gold Coast have no option but to play their first/second year ruck stocks this year, but if anyone saw their game on the weekend, you can quite easily tell that they will only get better and better, and in 3 years, they look like they will have a couple of handy talls.

Spencer is 22 and has played 8 games. Is it time to put him in for the rest of the year and give him every opportunity to develop as an AFL footballer?

As much as we hate to admit it, 2011 still is a development year for the Club. We do have expecations that we will win more games this year than last. Would it be a step backwards by introducing this type of position now, with an eye on the future beyond 2013? What's the worst that can happen? If we go with Max, maybe his body isn't quite up for it, however it's not like he's playing no football at all. With that in mind, do we go for Spencer - his old enough and big enough, so why can't he? I'm not a fan of his, I think his skills are terrible, but if he knew he had 20 games where he had immunity, would he grow? I'd bloody hope so. If not, again, what have we lost?

I am a big fan of Martin, but am unsure if he has the ability to play as our Premiership Ruckman. If he continues to improve, hell, he might just be our Premiership Full Forward while Gawn/Spencer are our Premiership Ruck.

[e25 5]

Martin is almost the perfect 2nd ruck, with the current substitute rule.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Martin is almost the perfect 2nd ruck, with the current substitute rule.

Absolutely agree, and has made a cracking start to the season, good on him.

So do we sit and wait until Jamar is 30-ish, then find a true, full time replacement? Which would mean we are going in to the post-Russian era with a rukman that's played 20 senior games?

Martin can become our Goodes-type player, if he's half as good as him that would be great! Sydney still generally play with 2 rucks + Goodes.

[e25 5]

Goodes-type player? what are you talking about??!?

Stef Martin is our best 2nd ruck right now.

He looks good enough to keep developing into one that is good enough for a premiership side.

Gawn & Spencer seem to be developing nicely for life post-Jamar.

What is it that you want?

Players don't need to be pigeon-holed as a "XXXXXX-type player".

His role is backup ruck, and he is well suited to it.

[deanox 9,901]

Interesting topic, something I was talking about recently. With the sub rule, no team can afford to play a genuine 2nd ruck. The 2nd ruck in all teams needs to be a versatile mobile tall who can be a forward/ruck or a defender/ruck. You simply cannot afford to carry a formative developing no. 1 ruck, like we did we jamar while white was playing, or spencer in his 8 games.

Effectively, the no.1 ruck, and the versatile tall, are very different, specialised positions.

If this means that no club can afford to carry a developing 2nd ruck as well as their number one ruck, where are these second rucks going to develop? If the sub rule persists for 5 years will the current no. 1 rucks retire and leave a void that isn't filled?

Maybe in a year or two some teams will have to start carrying second rucks for development, limiting their run.

Not sure how this will play out.

[Disco Demons 92]

i'm a little worried...Martin comes out of contract this year...we could be forced to pay a lot for him.

there is no rush to play spencer and gawn at the moment. both can use the VFL to develop. Injury may give them a chance...

[The Chazz 4,077]

Goodes-type player? what are you talking about??!?

Stef Martin is our best 2nd ruck right now.

He looks good enough to keep developing into one that is good enough for a premiership side.

Gawn & Spencer seem to be developing nicely for life post-Jamar.

What is it that you want?

Players don't need to be pigeon-holed as a "XXXXXX-type player".

His role is backup ruck, and he is well suited to it.

Sorry E, thought I made my opinion of Martin clear. I don't think Martin will be the player that will be our first preference ruckman. As you said, a great back up, but I think he is of more benefit in other roles.

So you believe that Martin will be Number 1 ruck, and Gawn/Spencer will play the back-up ruck when Jamar is gone? More than happy to take your opinion on board.

What is it that I want? People's opinions, so you've made my day, thanks! In terms of the team, I personally want Gawn playing full forward for the rest of the year, Martin to play CHF (or defense depending on match ups), Watts on a wing, Jurrah in a pocket, Aussie in the other pocket, Dunn on a flank and Petterd on the other flank. Gawn can play 2nd ruck with Jamar resting at FF. Do this over the next 2 or 3 seasons, so then when we are a chance to challenge, we have 2 strong ruck options in Jamar and Gawn (with Gawn having 80 odd games played), Martin to make a KPF his prime spot, and Watts has provided us with run, especially while he still lighter and can do it with more ease. Jurrah will still kick our goals, and Aussie will crumb off Gawn all day.

We targeted Hale in the trade period for a specific reason, but didn't get him. So does that mean we have to change our structure becuase we didn't get a certain player?

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

We have Jamar atm.

We have Spencer, Gawn, Martin and Fitzpatrick waiting in the wings.

At the end of this year I would probably rookie another young ruckman.

Otherwise, I would not be doing much else for the moment on this one.

We have bigger issues elsewhere

[The Chazz 4,077]

Interesting topic, something I was talking about recently. With the sub rule, no team can afford to play a genuine 2nd ruck. The 2nd ruck in all teams needs to be a versatile mobile tall who can be a forward/ruck or a defender/ruck. You simply cannot afford to carry a formative developing no. 1 ruck, like we did we jamar while white was playing, or spencer in his 8 games.

Effectively, the no.1 ruck, and the versatile tall, are very different, specialised positions.

If this means that no club can afford to carry a developing 2nd ruck as well as their number one ruck, where are these second rucks going to develop? If the sub rule persists for 5 years will the current no. 1 rucks retire and leave a void that isn't filled?

Maybe in a year or two some teams will have to start carrying second rucks for development, limiting their run.

Not sure how this will play out.

Yeah, the sub rule is a pain in the ass for this exact reason. That's my concern - go in thinking we can get away with playing Jamar until he retires, which will be 2014-2016 one would think, but then that is right when our window will be at its most extended. what do we do then - trade for a ready-made ruckman, or start from scratch?

With all the talk of still needing a big forward, it makes reasonable sense that we look at this now, especially with the sub rule. I'd like to think that Gawn (or similar) can do a job at FF, while Jamar plays out his next 5 years. Then, they can slot straight in to the ruck after the Russian exits, and during that time, it's up to Fitzy or Lucas Cook to show that they are the real deal, and could play that bigger forward/2nd ruck role.

Nb. When I say Gawn can do a job, the job I have for him in our team is to kick 15 goals for the year, learn the way the seniors play it, and relive the ruck while learning from playing against some of the best in the business.

[The Chazz 4,077]

We have Jamar atm.

We have Spencer, Gawn, Martin and Fitzpatrick waiting in the wings.

At the end of this year I would probably rookie another young ruckman.

Otherwise, I would not be doing much else for the moment on this one.

We have bigger issues elsewhere

This is my point! At what stage do YOU think we should introduce them and how should we go about it? Martin is in there now, but is he going to be our number 1 ruck when Jamar isn't?

What are they waiting for? If Jamar is AA for the next 4 years, he will stay as our 1st choice. Problem is that he is going to see 1 or 2 seasons where we all will be expecting success, but then he will be gone. Do you expect a 100 game Scorpion player to come in and make an impact?

Just being proactive!

Where are our bigger issues? Our inexperienced midfield? Our senior players that played stood up the week before, but had a shocker yesterday? The fact we don't have a strong, tall forward? Our inability to break a defensive zone (see "inexperienced midfield" and "senior players having a shocker" points earlier)?

Edited April 4, 2011 by billy2803

[e25 5]

Sorry E, thought I made my opinion of Martin clear. I don't think Martin will be the player that will be our first preference ruckman. As you said, a great back up, but I think he is of more benefit in other roles.

So you believe that Martin will be Number 1 ruck, and Gawn/Spencer will play the back-up ruck when Jamar is gone? More than happy to take your opinion on board.

What is it that I want? People's opinions, so you've made my day, thanks! In terms of the team, I personally want Gawn playing full forward for the rest of the year, Martin to play CHF (or defense depending on match ups), Watts on a wing, Jurrah in a pocket, Aussie in the other pocket, Dunn on a flank and Petterd on the other flank. Gawn can play 2nd ruck with Jamar resting at FF. Do this over the next 2 or 3 seasons, so then when we are a chance to challenge, we have 2 strong ruck options in Jamar and Gawn (with Gawn having 80 odd games played), Martin to make a KPF his prime spot, and Watts has provided us with run, especially while he still lighter and can do it with more ease. Jurrah will still kick our goals, and Aussie will crumb off Gawn all day.

We targeted Hale in the trade period for a specific reason, but didn't get him. So does that mean we have to change our structure becuase we didn't get a certain player?

No.

I said he is the best 2nd ruck we have, not that he is the 2nd best ruck we have.

He is a perfect back-up, not a perfect no. 1 ruckman.

Just as Spencer and Gawn will both be suited to the no. 1 role, but not the back-up role.

[The Chazz 4,077]

No.

I said he is the best 2nd ruck we have, not that he is the 2nd best ruck we have.

He is a perfect back-up, not a perfect no. 1 ruckman.

Just as Spencer and Gawn will both be suited to the no. 1 role, but not the back-up role.

So, we have to wait for Jamar to lose form (not gunna happen for a while), get injured (see previous) or retire (2015) until we get to see Max or Jake again?

[e25 5]

Possibly.

I don't think they are suited to the back-up role, and Stef is.

Are you really complaining that we might, in the future, be in the 'unfortunate' position of having more capable ruckmen than we can find spots for..?

[The Chazz 4,077]

No, just trying to understand how you can expect a ruckman that has spent 5 years in the reserves, to come in to a team that is having a crack at a premiership, that has played minimal AFL games if any, and expect him to be capable of carrying us to win a flag as our first preference ruck.

[Rogue 585]

For this season I think we should, in the main, stick with Jamar as #1 ruck and a second ruck (ie. Martin) alongside him. Spencer is best served by playing for Casey as #1 ruck at the moment.

Perhaps next season, or the following, we might look at playing Jamar forward for longer so we can give another potential #1 ruck game time. However, we'd want at least one of the two - and preferably both - to be able to play forward competently.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

This is my point! At what stage do YOU think we should introduce them and how should we go about it? Martin is in there now, but is he going to be our number 1 ruck when Jamar isn't?

What are they waiting for? If Jamar is AA for the next 4 years, he will stay as our 1st choice. Problem is that he is going to see 1 or 2 seasons where we all will be expecting success, but then he will be gone. Do you expect a 100 game Scorpion player to come in and make an impact?

Just being proactive!

Where are our bigger issues? Our inexperienced midfield? Our senior players that played stood up the week before, but had a shocker yesterday? The fact we don't have a strong, tall forward? Our inability to break a defensive zone (see "inexperienced midfield" and "senior players having a shocker" points earlier)?

I think we are well placed with the rucks.

Our aenior midfield is limited and inconsistent. Our midfield needs to evolve to a maturing talented midfield hopefully lead by Scully and Trengove. This will take some years. The forward is coming in Watts. I hope he is still developing into his body atm.

[Rogue 585]

I think we are well placed with the rucks.

Our aenior midfield is limited and inconsistent. Our midfield needs to evolve to a maturing talented midfield hopefully lead by Scully and Trengove. This will take some years. The forward is coming in Watts. I hope he is still developing into his body atm.

I think the OP makes a fair point regarding timing of introducing the numero uno ruck replacement for Jamar though; it's a pretty interesting question given the new interchange/sub rule has made it even less likely to play two bona fide rucks in the one side.

[Triple Jack 13]

I am happy with the Jamar Stef combo at the moment. But i wouldn't mind seeing Jamar rested occasionally, to keep him fresh and improve his longevity. This will also give goes to the less experienced ruckmen (Gawn, Spencer, Fitz).

But one thing this post got me thinking is that out of any position the VFL is probs best at developing Ruckmen, now because of the sub rule. There are now alot of teams with quality ruckmen dropping down into the seconds. For example one of Hampson or Warnock will be playing when Kreizer comes back. Mark Blake is another quality ruckmen in the VFL. The list goes on, so i feel that our ruckmen will get enough stiff opposition in the ruck contests to develop. I think it is in general play, with the quickness of the game, where it takes AFL games to develop and adapt to.

[leucopogon 1,519]

This is a fair concern by the OP and I don't understand the short-sighted nature of those who are shooting him down and saying lets stick with Stef and Russian for now. What purpose will that serve our premiership chances in 4 or five years time? We need to forget about finals this year and get games into what will be our core group for the flag tilt in 2014-2016.

I don't know anything about our developing rucks cause I'm in Perth and never get to training or casey games. Do any of them look like they'll become premiership ruckmen? I have a feeling the precedent for premiership ruckmen might have been set with how Collingwood traded for Jolly as a ready-made. Hopefully we can do the same if Russian fades out too badly in a few years time. As much as it pains me to say it, Russian would have to be the perfect ready made ruck for a team coming into their window next year or the year after as it looks like he'll miss out with us. We could probably get something fairly decent for him (either trade or draft picks) at the end of his current contract.

[Guest DeesPower]

Our ruckmen when we win the flag in 2014 I predict will be Max Gawn supported by Martin.

To have someone of Max's size and agility will be a huge plus and if Martin keeps developing at his current rate he may well fulfill both a second ruck and key position either forward or back.

[The Chazz 4,077]

Our ruckmen when we win the flag in 2014 I predict will be Max Gawn supported by Martin.

To have someone of Max's size and agility will be a huge plus and if Martin keeps developing at his current rate he may well fulfill both a second ruck and key position either forward or back.

This is my point Power, but so many that have replied are failing to see (not saying you are)!

I, too, predict Max will be our premiership ruckman in life after 2014. But, until then, a lot of our success over the coming 3+ years depends on Jamar. He is in AA form again, and is in the prime of his career, so we can't replace him.

But at what stage do we get games in to his replacement, and how do we go about doing it? The premiership sides of every year generally have a ruckman that would be in the top 5 ruck of the league for that year. I realise that every player is different, but it too Jamar 80 games or so to start playing consistently well. If we work on that theory, we need to start pumping games in to his potential replacement now, so that by the time 2015+ comes around, and Jamar is approaching the end, we will have an experienced replacement.

So, how do we get senior games in to say Max Gawn now, so that he is around that 80-game mark in 2014ish? With the new sub rule, I think we have to seriously look at playing him at deep Full Forward. I know that totally contradicts what I said in the Stef Martin thread, so maybe I readjust my thinking with Stef and get him playing at CHF this year. I still think Watts would benefit from the next 2 years on the wing, just so he learns to be more accountable, and it will also get him playing/learning the defencesive part of his game.

We wil lnot win the flag this year, and we will not win the flag next year. If we fasttrack some of development in the way I suggested above, there is no reason that 2013 can't be a year where we might snag one earlier than expected.