Future Forward Line Structure

[deanox 10,045]

We have, for the first time in a long time, a number of key forwards, capable of playing, if not dominating at afl level.

Robbo, Miller, Bate, Watts, Jurrah, Newton are all playing this weekend for one grade or another. While Robbo is on his last legs over the next couple of years, the other 5 are all possible future fixtures.

My questions are, which players playing styles can combine best? which players play in the same spaces on the ground? are some players more flexible than others in terms of positions (ie CHF, FF, flanker, 3rd tall)? Is there room for 3 talls permanently? I don't really think any of them are flexible enough to play back or ruck which means imo we would probably struggle playing more than 3. Bate being the exception as he may be able to play a bit smaller.

Even assuming all these players come on, will any of them cancel each other out?

[angryfijian 25]

From what I have seen of Watts and Jurrah they are natural footballers who are also excellent below their knees. I think they will be able to able drift up the ground and get their own ball or play the link man. Miller has shown he can be an excellent defender. I think Newton can play a Shaun Smith role in our forward line - sneak up on the opposition as the third forward.

From memory I think Bate was an all Australian midfielder in the U18's.

Robbo is alwys going to be Robbo and will finish his career in the same mode as Yze and White - in and out of the Ones.

[jabberwocky 2,301]

We have, for the first time in a long time, a number of key forwards, capable of playing, if not dominating at afl level.

Robbo, Miller, Bate, Watts, Jurrah, Newton are all playing this weekend for one grade or another. While Robbo is on his last legs over the next couple of years, the other 5 are all possible future fixtures.

My questions are, which players playing styles can combine best? which players play in the same spaces on the ground? are some players more flexible than others in terms of positions (ie CHF, FF, flanker, 3rd tall)? Is there room for 3 talls permanently? I don't really think any of them are flexible enough to play back or ruck which means imo we would probably struggle playing more than 3. Bate being the exception as he may be able to play a bit smaller.

Even assuming all these players come on, will any of them cancel each other out?

Robbo continues to play while Watts and Jurrah develop. My feeling is that Watts and Jurrah will be more than capable with the ball on the floor and I don't believe we will lose a lot at ground level by playing these blokes with two other talls. Bate also is pretty handy on the ground in close with his bullocking work but does lack agility. I think when Watts and Jurrah develop they will line up comfortably with Miller and Bate. I suppose we need to suck it and see if Watts and Jurrah have the agility and pace to do it all. I think they can. It would probably mean that the resting ruckman would go to the bench.

The other option is to play Jurrah or Watts as an attacking wingman.

[Roost It 1,434]

Watts Miller Davey

Maric Bate Jurrah/Robbo

or something like that. The beauty of that forward line is that it is flexible depending on match ups etc. Miller could work his way up the ground and away from goal leaving Watts playing at true CHF.

Maric Watts Bate

Jurrah Butcher Miller

[jacey 333]

We have, for the first time in a long time, a number of key forwards, capable of playing, if not dominating at afl level.

Easy there big fella.

There's still a long road but Jurrah and Watts do look exciting. We still need another strong stay at home type forward. Could that be Butcher or Miller, time will tell. Unsure about Newton.

I would still have Aussie in my 18 and Maric too. Aussies a bit out of sight, out of mind atm but he'll be a player. Bate will be more effective and take advantage of matchups when better players come aboard.

[deanox 10,045]

...

lol don't worry im not geting to carried away. i realise we are a long way away, but 3 years ago we had neitz and robbo who were on the way out. holland who was never gonna to be a star, miller who was struggling and playing in the back line as a result, and newton kicking goals in the vfl reserves

9but ven then we knew he was speculative at best).

for once we have kpp developing and performing at vfl level, not stuck behind other vfl players. in previous years we havnt had anything to look forward too, and we have lamented the fact that we had developing defenders and mids but not forwards.

[Al`s DEMONS 0]

aussie butcher maric

jurrah watts sylvia, two talls, mid, two smalls, sylia can rotate through the midfield, miller forced out of side , bate ? newton?

[Jarka 767]

Out of the forwards that Deanox listed Robbo, Miller and Bate are only short term prospects, they're ok but all have serious deficiencies. Realistically they'r future depth players.

Newton won't get another contract extension.

Obviously Watts and Jurrah are the two to build the forwardline around going forward.

As others have already suggested Wona & Maric will also feature heavily.

Sylvia & Morton will most likely rotate through the area and I'd like to see Bailey use Green up there in his twilight years, his experience will be invaluable for a young, developing group of kids.

I'd like to see us get one more genuine key forward, however I'm undecided on whether we need a classy midfielder instead. If we end up with a pp pick it would still be very, very tempting to take two great mids.

[Yencks 8]

From what I have seen of Watts and Jurrah they are natural footballers who are also excellent below their knees. I think they will be able to able drift up the ground and get their own ball or play the link man. Miller has shown he can be an excellent defender. I think Newton can play a Shaun Smith role in our forward line - sneak up on the opposition as the third forward.

From memory I think Bate was an all Australian midfielder in the U18's.

Robbo is alwys going to be Robbo and will finish his career in the same mode as Yze and White - in and out of the Ones.

there is no way miller is going back into defense...he played well against sydney on barry hall a couple of times, but we have much better defenders now.

Newton doesnt deserve to play if you ask me

[deanox 10,045]

rather than just writing players off, i was hoping this thread would evolve into a discussion of "can miller, watts and jurrah play in the same forward line or are they all to mobile?" or "Do we ultimately want 2-3 tall forwards, and "does one of them have to be a "3rd tall" ie more mobile player than genuine tall?".

[Jarka 767]

rather than just writing players off, i was hoping this thread would evolve into a discussion of "can miller, watts and jurrah play in the same forward line or are they all to mobile?" or "Do we ultimately want 2-3 tall forwards, and "does one of them have to be a "3rd tall" ie more mobile player than genuine tall?".

Miller is a special case through, the question will always be 'Can we afford a key forward like him who doesn't kick goals'?

[deanox 10,045]

Miller is a special case through, the question will always be 'Can we afford a key forward like him who doesn't kick goals'?

good question. my take on it, is that given watts athleticism, will he play the miller role up field and still manage to kick the 3 goals a week that miller should kick?

can miller pay closer to goal? he hasn't had heaps of success there but he is a good mark on the lead. he doesn't have the leap or the pack mark ability of robbo.

it looks to me like jurrah, watts, miller and bate are all roaming forwards in a way. jurrah may be able to play more as a one out forward, but not sure what his strength would be like at afl level. i always felt like newton was a better full forward prospect, but he doesn't seem to have the body strength one on one, has a good leap and after watching him today seemed to much prefer being in some space. that being said he took a good mark in the square, and kicked his other 'goal' off a pack.

[Jaded No More 68,975]

it looks to me like jurrah, watts, miller and bate are all roaming forwards in a way.

The only gaping hole we have is at FF, and this is where I think we need to groom Martin.

He is big, already is a good size but can obviously do with some muscle definition and strength. He has a good leap and can take a mark. Kicking is so-so, but the closer he plays to goal, the easier it will be to teach him a goal-kicking technique. He can surely learn to kick from 30m out!

Having him develop into a FF, playing out of the square, virtually solves all of our forward issues (if it comes off that is).

FF: Aussie Martin Jurrah

CHF: Miller Watts Bate

I would play Maric further up field personally, especially since Jurrah and Watts would be just as handy off the deck as they would be on the lead.

In reality, we have a number of medium/small forward options available. I didn't even consider Green or Sylvia but both can play up forward (and will push Bate and Miller out of the side if they are struggling), and there is always Morton who, assuming he puts on a kilo or two (but hopefully 15) could certainly play a key attacking role.

[Adam The God 30,614]

My questions are, which players playing styles can combine best? which players play in the same spaces on the ground? are some players more flexible than others in terms of positions (ie CHF, FF, flanker, 3rd tall)? Is there room for 3 talls permanently? I don't really think any of them are flexible enough to play back or ruck which means imo we would probably struggle playing more than 3. Bate being the exception as he may be able to play a bit smaller.

I think Bate is best suited to the flanks or a wing, rather than a key position. He's simply not tall enough for key position, then again I suppose he wouldn't be any bigger or smaller than Fevola.

[MelbournePassion 7]

I think Bate can play up on the half forward line when we get to key forwards and be the 3rd tall and drop deep sometimes.

Wonaeamirri Butcher Maric

Bate Watts Jurrah

[LIFT 0]

I think Bate is best suited to the flanks or a wing, rather than a key position. He's simply not tall enough for key position, then again I suppose he wouldn't be any bigger or smaller than Fevola.

F: Woenamarri Butcher Jurrah

HF: Maric Watts Bate

Maybe Newton, Dunn or Martin at Full Forward if no priority Pick.

Green and Sylvia to swing through there for sure during games.

Robbo and Miller are GAWN and will not be in this forward line when we are a contender.

Robbo has been a great servant but age is against him.

Miller just does not have the nouse, football brain and skills to be effective. I think good centre half forwards like Carey, Pavlich, Brown, Tredrea and S. Lucas were long penertrating kicks, who kicked goals and wanted the ball in their hands. Miller simply does not.

I think Watts will.

[Ryan Dee 140]

I think Bate is best suited to the flanks or a wing,

Wing

Give him a run on the wing for a few quaters and let him use his pace.

[Doggo 32]

Miller just does not have the nous, football brain and skills to be effective. I think good centre half forwards like Carey, Pavlich, Brown, Tredrea and S. Lucas were long penertrating kicks, who kicked goals and wanted the ball in their hands. Miller simply does not.

I agree. As hard as he works, Miller is average at best at CHF and will not be our CHF when we are in our next flag tilt. Provided Butcher ends up at Melbourne, then Miller's days are numbered, as I see a developed Jack Watts as our genuine CHF, with Buthcer at FF.

Miller needs to learn to play deep if he wants ultimate longevity for his career. With Watts to be our superstar CHF, and Butcher touted as a real power FF, if Miller can't learn to play FF and kick goals, as well as his lead-up role, then i just can't see him being anything more than a depth player in years to come.

Our forwardline from 2011 onwards hopefully looks a bit like this:

HF: Bate, Watts, Wonaeamirri

F: Maric, Butcher (Miller), Jurrah

With Green (who'll be nearing the end of his career by then) spending a lot of time in there as another marking option, and Sylvia, Morton, and Jetta all rotating from the midfield thru there. And should there be injuries to key talls, guys like Garland and Martin capable of playing as 'swing-men'.

I see Bate as the lead-up flanker, playing the role Miller plays now, Jurrah playing the role Robbo played a bit earlier in his career, as a slightly undersized tall, who starts deep and can take a pack mark, yet has the mobility to find the ball on wing/flank, Butcher/Miller the traditional deep FF, Watts the mobile, pack-marking CHF ala Riewoldt, and Maric, Wona, Jetta, as well as Green and Sylvia, as ground level players.

The key to having this forward setup is being able to play Miller and/or Butcher deep. If Butcher can come in and hold that spot down, it makes it hard for Miller in the long term. However, as is quite likely, should Butcher be drafted but take some time developing at Casey, as all young KP's generally do, then Miller has to step up and be able to play deep. I don't see Watts becoming a full-time FF until much later in his career, so a lot rests on Miller being able to become the no.1 go-to man deep inside 50, and kick REGULAR goals. Something he has yet to show at AFL level, ever. If he can develop this part of his game, or someone else like Garland or Martin can hold that FF spot down, then we'll get the balance right.

[Doggo 32]

The only gaping hole we have is at FF, and this is where I think we need to groom Martin.

He is big, already is a good size but can obviously do with some muscle definition and strength. He has a good leap and can take a mark. Kicking is so-so, but the closer he plays to goal, the easier it will be to teach him a goal-kicking technique. He can surely learn to kick from 30m out!

Having him develop into a FF, playing out of the square, virtually solves all of our forward issues (if it comes off that is).

FF: Aussie Martin Jurrah

CHF: Miller Watts Bate

I would play Maric further up field personally, especially since Jurrah and Watts would be just as handy off the deck as they would be on the lead.

In reality, we have a number of medium/small forward options available. I didn't even consider Green or Sylvia but both can play up forward (and will push Bate and Miller out of the side if they are struggling), and there is always Morton who, assuming he puts on a kilo or two (but hopefully 15) could certainly play a key attacking role.

Jaded, i think your forward line may be just a little too tall? Four of your forwards, including Jurrah and not Bate, are all tall enough to be considered genuine marking forwards. I understand Watts and Jurrah are pretty handy off the deck, but considering they'll also be contesting the ball in the air most of the time, your forward structure is lacking sufficient ground level crumbers, besides Wona. Bate and Miller are handy, but forwardline pressure isn't their specialty, and Jurrah and Wona can only do so much at ground level. I think you'll find the ball rebounding out of that forwardline far too easily.

[deanox 10,045]

im not sure we should really be counting butcher. even if we draft him, and if he comes on to be a good player, he will be at least 4 years away from having a constant impact. similar to newton taking a while to have any impact, watts will probably be 3-4 years away from being a dominate KPP as well. by then miller will be 28-29 so there won't be heaps of overlap there.

[Jaded No More 68,975]

Jaded, i think your forward line may be just a little too tall? Four of your forwards, including Jurrah and not Bate, are all tall enough to be considered genuine marking forwards. I understand Watts and Jurrah are pretty handy off the deck, but considering they'll also be contesting the ball in the air most of the time, your forward structure is lacking sufficient ground level crumbers, besides Wona. Bate and Miller are handy, but forwardline pressure isn't their specialty, and Jurrah and Wona can only do so much at ground level. I think you'll find the ball rebounding out of that forwardline far too easily.

I disagree.

The beauty of that forwardline is that both Watts and Jurrah can push up onto the wing (as can Bate), and have an impact, so you can always rotate someone like Maric through there or rest Davey, for more crumbing options.

If you start to have more than one specialist crumber, you become too predictable. Crumbing is very much an opportunistic role, and you can't waste two or three spots on that sort of position on a permanent basis.

Line them up as I suggested, and tell Maric, Davey etc... to push forward when we win possession (when Blease and Struss are ready to go they will become the play makers off half-back, meaning Davey can play true midfield/HF).

If you've watched a bit of vision of Watts though, you'd realise that he is equally as good off the deck, so I reckon in years to come if someone like Martin creates a spillage, Watts will be there to swoop and kick one off the ground. He is just that awesome

[Doggo 32]

It's hard to predict a future structure because changes occur. Players improve and decline, players are traded to/from clubs, players get injured, etc etc.

At this stage we look likely to get Butcher, but i agree with you deanox, in that he's no certainty and if he is drafted, he will take some time to develop.

Even without Butcher, i still stand by my future forward structure.

[deanox 10,045]

i think we are on the same page RE miller. I think as watts starts to kick on, he ill have to reinvent himself closer to goal because watts will play the half forward role much more effectively than miller i.e. he will take the marks upfield but still manage to kick goals.

i cant see why miller cant ply his lead and mark trade out of the square, but im not sure how he will go in the one out situation.

[Doggo 32]

i think we are on the same page RE miller. I think as watts starts to kick on, he ill have to reinvent himself closer to goal because watts will play the half forward role much more effectively than miller i.e. he will take the marks upfield but still manage to kick goals.

i cant see why miller cant ply his lead and mark trade out of the square, but im not sure how he will go in the one out situation.

Agree. Essentially Miller has all the qualities to make it as a FF, except for his dodgy kicking/lack of penetration by foot. Last year he showed he can kick straight, but his confidence in his own kicking is really down at the moment.

His leap and pack marking is also one of his percieved weaknesses, but he has shown he can do it. Unfortunately he hasn't done it anywhere near enough, and that's what makes him so frustrating. He's played 100 games and has always shown glimpses of ability, but as yet, has not nailed his position. He's always been our "CHF, until somone better comes along". With the departure of Neitz and the end of Robbo coming sooner rather than later, and with Watts our potential CHF, as a leader amongst the players, Miller just has to step up as the go-to man. One-out he definitiely has the body strength to be effective in those contested situations, and to be fair to him, our delivery has rarely been to his advantage, when he has played deep in recent years. But to be effective at FF on a weekly basis he needs to work thru that and still manage to kick goals. Much in the way that Robbo somehow always manages to snag 1 or 2, regardless of how the delivery is to him.

In the second half of this year i really hope he can kick another 20+ goals and establish himself as a deep forward, to compliment his long-leading game. It will make things so much easier in our climb back up the ladder over the next few years if he does. Even if we draft Butcher.

[Jarka 767]

I disagree.

The beauty of that forwardline is that both Watts and Jurrah can push up onto the wing (as can Bate), and have an impact, so you can always rotate someone like Maric through there or rest Davey, for more crumbing options.

If you start to have more than one specialist crumber, you become too predictable. Crumbing is very much an opportunistic role, and you can't waste two or three spots on that sort of position on a permanent basis.

Line them up as I suggested, and tell Maric, Davey etc... to push forward when we win possession (when Blease and Struss are ready to go they will become the play makers off half-back, meaning Davey can play true midfield/HF).

If you've watched a bit of vision of Watts though, you'd realise that he is equally as good off the deck, so I reckon in years to come if someone like Martin creates a spillage, Watts will be there to swoop and kick one off the ground. He is just that awesome

I agree with Doggo, for too top heavy and unless any of Miller, Martin or Bate improve drastically then they'll just be depth players in the future. This will also be compounded if we get Butcher at the end of the year

Also, why would you want your (potentially) two best forwards in terms of goal kicking ability pushing up to the wing away from the goals?