This entire discussion hinges on each individual's definition of the word "mediocrity" (or mediocre) in regards to football.

When talking about 'no longer accepting mediocrity' we are talking about different things.

accepting losing is accepting mediocrity IMO and that's what jim is doing to an extent

I have no doubt that the club has a plan in place to win a premiership but we are so early in its implementation that there are no real expectations/timelines as yet. The club isnt going to come out and make a call that they are going to win X amount of games next year or a premiership in 2011 and rightly so .

I do see that there is a plan and this is what gives me hope. I see that this plan bears resemblance to the successful Geelong and Hawthorn teams in buliding on a team of youngsters.

I agree thought that the team needs to get to point where losing hurts, really f%&*#ing hurts. Losing hurts most when you expect to win. This expectation only comes when you have a confident and able group of players who truly believe it. We don't have this yet but it is no fault of the club at this point. We had a core group of young players who didn't know if they belonged out there.

I don't know what more that the coaching staff could do other than publicly berate individuals. This may appease the members but it won't help the players or the team.

Since when is honesty and realism mediocrity. So if Stynes and co came out and said MFC was going to play finals in 09 and the whole football world laughed (at us, out loud) that would make you happy?

Fact: Expect pain but expect the teams that beat us to feel some of our pain in every tackle, bump and chase down. They never said the club would accept poor efforts

Since when is honesty and realism mediocrity. So if Stynes and co came out and said MFC was going to play finals in 09 and the whole football world laughed (at us, out loud) that would make you happy?

Re-read the opening post.

Re-read the opening post.

which part? and why?

which part? and why?

All of it, because you've misinterpreted it.

All of it, because you've misinterpreted it.

which part have I misinterpreted

The bit on bold a few posts up.

The bit on bold a few posts up.

I know what he said, that we won't play finals in 09. Had he said we will we would have been laughed at. That is what I'm saying. That honesty is not mediocrity.

Telling us members, sponsors, supporters etc, that we will not play finals in 2009, is not something the club should say, realistic in their minds, or not. In my whole lifetime I've never been associated with a club with a defeatist attitude in regard to the playing group. Was it not Tom Hafey who coached a Collingwood side from wooden spooners one year to grand finalists the next? I'm sure you bubbleheads would have other examples if you wish to delve.

Don't sit back on your pragmatic, business planned statistical curves, and tell me what a warm body or 22 can or can't achieve!

Or, if you're that sure the club you associate with cannot achieve on the field, then stand aside, or better still become a Collingwood member.

Telling us members, sponsors, supporters etc, that we will not play finals in 2009, is not something the club should say, realistic in their minds, or not. In my whole lifetime I've never been associated with a club with a defeatist attitude in regard to the playing group. Was it not Tom Hafey who coached a Collingwood side from wooden spooners one year to grand finalists the next? I'm sure you bubbleheads would have other examples if you wish to delve.

Don't sit back on your pragmatic, business planned statistical curves, and tell me what a warm body or 22 can or can't achieve!

Or, if you're that sure the club you associate with cannot achieve on the field, then stand aside, or better still become a Collingwood member.

The days of Tom Hafey and his ranting outbursts inspiring players is over. The game has moved on from a bunch of amateurs getting revved up by inspired coaches. It now takes many coaches, years of planning, first rate facilities and honesty and insight into where the playing group is at (which is why ND failed)

Stynes has not made a mistake in telling us like it is. What this club is after is effort and I'll bet you that is what everyone associated with the club is giving at the moment. Now for the players. Are they good enough to make the finals in 09. NO. Will they be beyond that. YES. This is what he is saying. THE TRUTH. I know it hurts but not as much as mediocrity, because we all know how that feels. Finally things start to look like they're going somewhere and you guys rabbit on about the club telling it like it is. Get over it.

Like your posts CB, especially because you're prepared to view something without being influenced by the masses.

My opinion about next year is that winning games is almost irrelevant, we have a very inexperienced team that needs to be rebuilt all over the ground. A victory will be getting games into the right kids and building for the future.

The days of Tom Hafey and his ranting outbursts inspiring players is over. The game has moved on from a bunch of amateurs getting revved up by inspired coaches. It now takes many coaches, years of planning, first rate facilities and honesty and insight into where the playing group is at (which is why ND failed)

Stynes has not made a mistake in telling us like it is. What this club is after is effort and I'll bet you that is what everyone associated with the club is giving at the moment. Now for the players. Are they good enough to make the finals in 09. NO. Will they be beyond that. YES. This is what he is saying. THE TRUTH. I know it hurts but not as much as mediocrity, because we all know how that feels. Finally things start to look like they're going somewhere and you guys rabbit on about the club telling it like it is. Get over it.

i appreciate what you are saying,

but i dont think it is necessary to accept the fact that we will not do well this year

we should still strive and believe that we can achieve

our aim should be to win quarters, and win matches in the short term with whatever team is on the park

-our aim should not be "lets not care if we win or lose cos we are gonna get better in two years time anyway"

--Losing should hurt so much every single week, that the players do whatever it takes every single week to fight it out for the fans

-If the President comes out and says basically "it doesnt matter if we lose this year, we know it will happen, we are young and learning etc, and we wont make finals".........no one (including the players themselves) will have any belief in the players

if we as fans, go to the game knowing that they are going to lose, condoning the fact that our president has stated that we will lose, we are losing all sense of culture and dignity

im not a fan of these statements:

-not because they may hurt

-not because they may be brutally honest

but because they are condoning the wrong attitude

--An attitude of "mediocrity" that i do not want to see at my football club

and when i say "mediocrity," i mean a losing culture where we do not strive to do the very best every day because it has been condoned

and no, i dont believe he should say "we will win the premiership"

but bailey says "our aim is to win quarters, and if you win enough quarters you win games of football, it's not complicated"

that is better

Just because a couple of officials have come out and said their not expecting much over the next couple of years dosent mean we're mediocre,it just means we're facing truths. Do you think the players are goiing to think " Aw,crap! The board have written us off already, whats the point in even playing?" No. The players will still be giving it their all. If anything,it may spur them on a bit.

I never said that it's about saying the team is a chance. It's about making the club's intentions clear that no matter crap things seem, their aim each and every year is to win the Premiership. Behind closed doors they know and we know that the chance is tiny, but it's still a chance.

Why should I go and watch a team run around if the club itself has stated that they are essentially just making up the numbers? I want to see a team go out and no matter what play as if there's five minutes to go in the Grand Final and they are two goals down. I don't want to see the complete and utter crap that we have been given over the past two seasons.

OK, so you just want a bit of 'spin' ? Some pyschological claptrap from the club will make you feel better.

Maybe you and Mo can shout from the stands "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore !!"

Just because a couple of officials have come out and said their not expecting much over the next couple of years dosent mean we're mediocre,it just means we're facing truths. Do you think the players are goiing to think " Aw,crap! The board have written us off already, whats the point in even playing?" No. The players will still be giving it their all. If anything,it may spur them on a bit.

i dont believe it will "spur them on" as such

-i believe in honesty

but stating our aims is a better way to approach this than just blatantly saying we are no good this year

we cant let this club fall into any traps and basically condoning that it is ok if we lose, is not alright

we should aim to win every bloody quarter of football

we cant let this club fall into any traps and basically condoning that it is ok if we lose, is not alright

we should aim to win every bloody quarter of football

I find it laughable that some of you people think that Bailey and Co will let the players off the hook after unacceptable performances. Yes, he's a teaching coach and he'll put performances in perspective, but I've no doubt that every player will be left under no illusion as to how they're going and what is expected of them. Because the club is taking a pragmatic approach doesn't mean that the coaching staff and players aren't expecting to win each and every time they take the field.

Just because a couple of officials have come out and said their not expecting much over the next couple of years dosent mean we're mediocre,it just means we're facing truths. Do you think the players are goiing to think " Aw,crap! The board have written us off already, whats the point in even playing?" No. The players will still be giving it their all. If anything,it may spur them on a bit.

It sends a message to the football dept. and players that it's ok to lose. It gives both groups an "out" when they're not performing. Our performances this year were beyond a case of being beaten because we had lesser talent than our opposition. In games we were smashed by equally poor performing sides.

I'll give you 3 recent examples of sporting teams that made meteoric rises after being a basket case:

2007/8 - A-League. in 2006, Newcastle Jets sacked their coach during the season when they hadn't won a game. The assistant coach takes over the same group of players, makes the finals that season, and win the A-League the following season.

2008 - Major League Baseball. Tampa Bay Rays had the worst record in MLB in 2007, and have been a basket case most of their history. This year they made the World Series with predominently the same roster.

2008 - NFL. Miami Dolphins didn't win a game in 2007. They hire Bill Parcells to be in charge of football operations. Parcells has a history of being a "winner" in the NFL, and changing the fortunes at clubs he's been at. He sacked the coach, and brought in a couple of recycled players without big reputations. This season they're a big chance of making the play-offs.

In each case, the club didn't accept they couldn't achieve because they had lesser talent. We need a Bill Parcells figure at the MFC. Someone who doesn't accept losing, regardless of the situation.

I'll give you 3 recent examples of sporting teams that made meteoric rises after being a basket case:

2007/8 - A-League. in 2006, Newcastle Jets sacked their coach during the season when they hadn't won a game. The assistant coach takes over the same group of players, makes the finals that season, and win the A-League the following season.

2008 - Major League Baseball. Tampa Bay Rays had the worst record in MLB in 2007, and have been a basket case most of their history. This year they made the World Series with predominently the same roster.

2008 - NFL. Miami Dolphins didn't win a game in 2007. They hire Bill Parcells to be in charge of football operations. Parcells has a history of being a "winner" in the NFL, and changing the fortunes at clubs he's been at. He sacked the coach, and brought in a couple of recycled players without big reputations. This season they're a big chance of making the play-offs.

We 'won' the spoon in 97 and played in a prelim in 1998. We had many players come back from injury and an injection of youth through trading and the draft. There are reasons for everything. And no doubt there are reasons for each example you've used.

There's nothing definitive to be gained by a few examples of teams turning their fortunes around.

I find it laughable that some of you people think that Bailey and Co will let the players off the hook after unacceptable performances. Yes, he's a teaching coach and he'll put performances in perspective, but I've no doubt that every player will be left under no illusion as to how they're going and what is expected of them. Because the club is taking a pragmatic approach doesn't mean that the coaching staff and players aren't expecting to win each and every time they take the field.

if you've misunderstood the message i am trying to get accross then i apologise

we are not saying that "bailey and co will let the players off the hook"

-but as mo says, it sends a message to everyone that it is alright if we lose because no one expects us to

the guilt that a player should feel if they let the team down will not be as great if the president has said it's ok to lose

It sends a message to the football dept. and players that it's ok to lose. It gives both groups an "out" when they're not performing. Our performances this year were beyond a case of being beaten because we had lesser talent than our opposition.

We 'won' the spoon in 97 and played in a prelim in 1998. We had many players come back from injury and an injection of youth through trading and the draft. There are reasons for everything. And no doubt there are reasons for each example you've used.

There's nothing definitive to be gained by a few examples of teams turning their fortunes around.

You're right, but in each case, nobody expected such a meteoric turaround. The clubs could have written off another season because they had perceived lesser talent, and been pragmatic as you say. They didn't.

There is nothing "definitive" in sport, which is why you play for the moment, because nobody can predict what will happen in 2-3 years time. This is why I object to comments from Stynes and Connolly that we're 2-3 years away from being a contender.

if you've misunderstood the message i am trying to get accross then i apologise

we are not saying that "bailey and co will let the players off the hook"

-but as mo says, it sends a message to everyone that it is alright if we lose because no one expects us to

the guilt that a player should feel if they let the team down will not be as great if the president has said it's ok to lose

http://forums.demonland.com/index.php?show...=12980&st=0

Post #40

accepting losing is accepting mediocrity IMO and that's what jim is doing to an extent

Well i don't readily accept losing matches & being uncompetitive

I do accept that, whilst it'd be preferable to avoid it, losing in the short-term is a likely outcome of developing a young list.

The way I see it, its kinda like no matter what, you have a quota of losses. You can pretty much choose when you have these.

You can average them out over 6 years, keeping them at an 'acceptable' level at all times.

This involves playing guys like Yze & White, or even Bizzel, Brown & Ward in an effort to get more wins, leaving your young players on the longer route to development through the VFL. And you will have less young players to develop.

The older players stay on for another year or 2 beyond where you would've let them go, but this is not sustainable as they retire or lose form with age anyway.

As they retire the few younger players on the list have developed a bit & can come into the side. They take a while to adjust but eventually are a good replacement for the players that are gone & the club manages to hover around the same spot year after year. Unfortunately never good enough to take the next step (or next few steps).

THIS in my eyes is mediocrity. This is ACCEPTING mediocrity, effectively saying "I am happy to sit around the middle of the ladder for the next decade because I am not willing/able to weather some short-term pain".

It is often brought about by a short-term view of needing to be as competitive as is possible at that exact moment, & is often born out of a coach's own job insecurity.

A case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.

OR

You can accept that you will have a lot of losses early on, & know that each year that number will get smaller & smaller until it is almost inverse.

This involves biting the bullet & being honest that your list is not good enough. This is, as I see it, NOT ACCEPTING MEDIOCRITY. The mediocrity of sitting around the middle of the ladder for the next decade.

This is about being honest of where the club as a whole is, and where individual players are, and making the HARD decisions that will bring another chance at a premiership, even if it means some short term pain.

In essence, delisting/retiring old players that have long ago reached their potential & have little or nothing left to give. Discarding list cloggers. Whilst still trying to remain competitive, getting as many young players with lots of potential to the club, & fast-tracking their development where possible by playing them in senior AFL games. This is NOT TANKING to get better draft picks. It is about making space on your list & then filling it with quality youth, then developing that youth to get an improved list. Some will make it, some won't. But by the numbers, you will be increasing the efficiency at which the club uses players & increasing the output you get from them.

This type of thinking requires a pragmatic view of players as commodities, but it is one that works, in my view.

And it is the one that in today's climate will get a team back to contention, rather than fighting for 9th spot.

Obviously other factors come into play, but with a list like ours you have no choice. You have to disregard all those romantic notions of football & accept that we really had no choice given the stage we were at. A team like Sydney DOES have the luxury of staying in contention while introducing young players, as it is has the strength of star players to still carry the team. We don't.

This is the way I see things. I'm open to other ideas, but no one has put together an argument yet to convince me otherwise.

I hope someone can.

OK, Hawthorn said they did not expect to win a premiership until 2010 - did that give them a defeatist attitude and hinder their path to success this past season?

To say that the club will accept sub-standard performances from our players is wrong.

And to say that 'having this attitude' will give our players the idea that losing is acceptable is to not give them enough credit.

Without a strong positive mindset & competitive spirit the player in question will never make it, no matter what the President, CEO, Coach or Football Operations Manager might say.

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Post #40

"OK, so you just want a bit of 'spin' ? Some pyschological claptrap from the club will make you feel better.

Maybe you and Mo can shout from the stands "I'm as mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore !!"

-this is what u said

i see what u r getting accross, but why did jim stynes have to say "we wont make finals" rather than, "it may be a difficult year on and off the field, that is why we need everyone from the fans to the captain to believe in us and be proud and passionate in supporting our cub. our aim is to win matches and we will accept nothing less"

i suppose that is a bit of "pyschological claptrap" but i think that's better than basically saying we suck