Ted Lasso

alright Deespicable, if Wagner plays say 7 or more games i will publicly admit i am wrong on this and change my picture to Josh Wagner for 2018 by the way i do rate Wagner as a player, i just don't rate this particular decision, and can't with my limited knowledge of the motivations behind it, fully see the value of it, given he'd have been on the list and able to play if required, either way.

I reckon Jetta spent plenty of time on key forwards this year with the zone set up, but i see your point, even having this conversation is a great sign of how far the club has come.

I would argue that Stratton who is extremly highly rated within the Hawks is quite similar to Jetta, he's steady, shuts down his opponent and plays within his limitations offensively. they have some real run off half back through other players but have a great balance of offense and defense in the backline, but as you say, if Wagner or Smith was close to as good as Jetta defensively they become a much better option. other examples being Nick Smith at the Swans, Dale Morris at the dogs, they're really strong defenders and steady players who don't try and do things they aren't capable offensively, and having this balance allows others to be a little bit more attacking at times. So we definitely should be aiming to improve all the time, but i think Jetta offers something the others just don't, and something that seems to be present in very good teams that go deep into finals.

I think the biggest factor with regards to selection is going to be who fits into the zone the best of the players on the list, i am not sold on Frost just yet, i think he has some tools but i am not convinced he's going to make it right at this point. I think we rate both Jetta and Wagner a bit differently, i quite like that Jetta is steady and plays within his limits, i think you need those players in the modern game and his experience and composure in the backline may be important in big finals games moving forward, i liken him a bit to Matty Boyd and Dale Morris at the Dogs who can be attacking weapons but they're very steady and play within their limits and do that extremely well. I think you're right in your point that if either can defend as well as Jetta they will play ahead of him, but given i see Jetta as our best pure defender it would be a huge effort, if either can jump that much in their development this off season they absolutely deserve a place in the side, regardless of who goes out for them. I reckon the player most at risk from Wagner is Melksham, i really don't rate him as highly as some others and if the plan is still to rotate him off half back/the wing i think Wagner will be keeping the pressure right on his spot.

Offensively he plays within his limits, but i still think he's an effective user of the ball, but he's also potentially one of our best 1 on 1 defenders so in terms of being a two way player he's a real asset down back, especially given next year we'll have Hunt and Hibberd there who do have serious weapons off half back, it's important to have steady players as well.

I reckon that's a pretty big call with regards to Jetta, he's one of our most reliable players down back, any particular reason you feel he might be overtaken or his spot might be at risk?

Random, but was Jordan Lewis a Dees fan growing up? i seem to recall hearing that somewhere.

Given Wagner has been upgraded, does that mean we will now have a rookie spot to fill?

I am forming an opinion based on a limited view, as is virtually everyone on Demonland, i see a half back who has been re-signed despite being linked to the club for next year already, and one who is clearly behind in my opinion, 6 others who will play the same position. clearly though he's rated highly internally and they're backing him in so i wish him well and hope to be eating humble pie in 12 months. i am just a little unsure about this decision, but happy to be proven wrong.

No Stuie, not missing the point at all, here is a quote from post number 24 "I get that you have 40 odd players on the list so not everyone you recruit is going to be best 22 on paper or whatever and i understand this is the club saying he's more likely to play than the player we would have grabbed at pick 84 or whatever" please read my posts before you accuse me of missing the point. i am saying i don't see the need to promote someone that is going to struggle to play senior footy, he'd have been ready and able to play if required anyway, and pick 84 while speculative could have been used to address a need, for example a mature age ruckman from the state leagues to provide some depth in that area, and we'd have still had Wagner. but in any case my point has been well and truely argued, so i am out, have a good night guys.

See his aim is to play senior footy, and to be upgraded suggests that's what the club wants from him, as a mature age player. he's currently battling with Hibberd, Salem, Stretch, Melksham, Jetta, Hunt and Vince, and any mids who rotate through that position, and that's not including guys like Lumumba who i'd consider good enough to take a spot if they find form, so he's up against it. but time will tell, and i obviously very much welcome being proven wrong in this case.

Absolutely, and if you read my posts you will see that i am not questioning his place on the list, but rather the need to re-sign him right now. He'd still be on the list and able to play if required, but it has to be acknowledged that he's a long way down the pecking order and no certainty to play much if at all in those two years, and given he is a mature age player and not an 18 year old, time isn't on his side quite as much.

every list management decision has risk attached to it Stuie, i don't think it's unrealistic to suggest Josh may really struggle to get regular games, and if he does it begs the question if he was just as much value on the rookie list for another year, rather than re-signing him for 2 years now, we'd still have had him for another year as very handy depth and able to play if required, now we have taken the "risk" that we may have to carry him for 2 years if as i suggested he can't crack a regular game, potentially taking the valuable list spot away from someone else who might have been able to press more strongly more senior selection in the 2018 season. I just feel that he's behind a large group of players so unless we get decimated by injuries or his form is amazing he isn't going to be a regular in the AFL side, if at all, so keeping him as a rookie and re-assessing next year to me seemed more sensible, i wouldn't have been bothered if he was upgraded on a 1 year contract rather than 2 but as i said i am extremely happy for Josh and trust the club to make the right call, i just don't agree with this particular one.

But he'd have a spot either way, he'd either be a rookie or on the senior list, so he'd be on the list. to me the risk is re-signing him for two years because though he's rated highly internally i am fairly confident he's not rated more highly than Vince, Jetta, Hibberd, Hunt, Melksham and Salem who right off the bat play that position, so the risk being we might have re-contracted a guy who isn't going to get a game when we really didn't need to take any action and he could have been in the same position, at Casey putting pressure on and providing good depth. I get that you have 40 odd players on the list so not everyone you recruit is going to be best 22 on paper or whatever and i understand this is the club saying he's more likely to play than the player we would have grabbed at pick 84 or whatever, i guess i am just a little surprised, given we would have had him either way, and where i rate him personally within that group of half back/wing players all this is irrelevant now though because the decision has been made and i am very happy for him.

See i don't see it as a risk either way, we'd keep Wagner and he'd still be able to play, i just feel he's fallen down the pecking order quite a bit and would be behind 6-7 players for that position right at this moment. not sure the promotion & 2 years was really needed, i mean if he doesn't get a game next year or only plays 3-4 games it probably hasn't worked in my opinion. obviously the club rates him differently though so that's fine, happy to back them in.

Not sure it's that Black and White "Stuie" pick 84 has potential, there have been some very good players come out of later picks in the draft, but also some flops, so it's a question of what does Wagner offer vs another crack at the lucky dip. in my opinion Wagner is depth at best given Hibberd and Melksham come in, we already have Hunt, Jetta, Salem, Vince who can play that role and others who will rotate through there. i'd almost rather have another bite of the cherry and keep Wagner as a rookie.

Must admit i didn't see this coming, he is behind a few guys for that half back position and already a mature age player, didn't see him playing in the 1's unless there were injuries. is the 2 year deal a minimum to upgrade a player? i would have thought 1 year was a better fit under the circumstances.

Stretch: Great work habits, pace and skills and should be a member of the side for a long period of time. Salem : super talented and hard at the contest, my only minor concern is injuries Bugg: solid role player but i think with our depth now he might find himself on the fringe of selection and need to go to a new level to get a consistent game. Kennedy: similar to Bugg, offers some AFL level weapons but inconsistent, time is on his side. Harmes: I really like Harmes, should improve again and be a regular AFL player AVB: just needs an injury free run at things and he should be a very handy addition to the side ANB: a long way back in the pecking order so he is up against it, but it's not impossible Trengrove: make or break year, i am backing him in to regain his early career form and play a role for the Dees, but odds would be against him JKH : rated internally, will be interesting to see if he can get an injury free run Wagner: good mature age pick, but falling further down the half back pecking order.

Word on the street is Trenners has been working with a sprint coach and the plan is for that to continue through a large chunk of the pre season, giving himself every chance.

there are a few pretty handy players in that group, i suspect at least 10 will get new homes which is insane when you consider they've been delisted. if we were to go for one i wouldn't mind Barlow but i don't think we'd bother now.

This was the biggest indication for me, we wouldn't have played our best defender up forward if we saw him as a defender long term

i wonder where Garland sits, because clearly Oscar and Tom are ahead in the pecking order and Frost seems to bring some things to the table that Garland doesn't. i wouldn't be bringing in RIchards but Garland has surprised me, i thought he'd be a very reliable 3rd defender for us last year and he barely got a look in

Rd1 Saints Etihad 50/50 Rd2 Carlton MCG win Rd3 Geelong Etihad loss Rd4 Freo MCG win Rd5 Rich MCG win Rd6 Essendon Etihad win Rd 7 Hawks MCG win Rd8 Adel AO 50/50 Rd9 North MCG win Rd10 Gold Coast Tregar big win Rd11 Bye Rd12 Queens Bday win Rd13 Bulldogs Etihad loss Rd14 West Coast Away 50/50 Rd15 Swans MCG loss Rd16 Carlton MCG win Rd17 Adel Darwin 50/50 Rd18 Port MCG win Rd19 North Tassy win Rd20 GWS Manuka 50/50 Rd21 StKilda MCG 50/50 Rd22 Brisbane MCG win Rd23 Collingwood MCG win feeling 12 wins and a few that are 50/50 so the 2 games against the Saints in my opinion will decided if we play finals or not.

Saty the thing you're missing in this case is the AFL tipped the bombers off that an investigation was coming, if they didn't know and couldn't destroy evidence imagine the things they would have uncovered, i suspect the biggest challenge they faced was the lack of material evidence that was left, Doc Reid was absolutely looked at, it says so in the findings, seemingly he was bypassed, which should be alarm bells for the innocent "duped" players in my opinion.

I have no idea what happened, but i think the Essendon Saga showed that at least one club has no issue with lying to ASADA so it's not impossible more than one has done so, it's very difficult to do an effective job if people are lying and hiding things for you. i think a lot of the Whitfield story is not public, so difficult to judge anyone involved at this point.