Macca

Man City in allsortsa!

The only thing I saw were players unloading weights and then a bit of tag football

Yeah, tuned in for a bit ... WTF?? But the Yanks lap up that sort of stuff. I thought it was lame

Fixed it for you Gonzo 😁 And I agree with the premise of the rest of your post Upon analysing the VFA competion from 1877-1896 (pre those years the competition was too small and disjointed) I'd be more inclined to count the premierships from 1885 but they will probably recognise all or nothing A number of big footy names have got behind the idea/concept (Sheahan, Sheedy, Fitzpatrick et al) so I wouldn't be surprised to see a change of view (recognising premierships pre 1897) About a 15% - 20% chance right now but down the track (say 5 years time) the likelyhood could be more like 50%. Needs more weight of numbers for change. Especially from those within the Commission But right now you'd imagine the Blues, Cats & Dons voting in favour! Maybe the Demons too! (for the 3 extra Premierships) Footnote: Every footy season from at least 1870 has it's own Wiki page so people here can do their own analysis

Interesting that the MCG was our home ground only from 1890 onwards (not before) From 1858 until 1885 our home ground was the Metropolitan Ground situated between Wellington Rd & the MCG (nicknamed the 'Gravel Pit') and from 1885 to 1990 our home ground was where the Lexus centre is now And Carlton's* home ground from 1885 to 1990 was the MCG! Also, they played some home games at the MCG prior to 1885! Who knew? * Info courtesy of Blueseum

Not sure they can include any of the years prior to 1877. In all of those years only 3-5 teams were eligible to win the premiership. The counter argument is that up until 1924 the media of the day and the VFL & VFA were constantly counting the premierships as from 1870 (7 years prior to the advent of the VFA) But 1924 was the same year that the VFL were on the cusp of inviting 3 teams from the VFA to switch comps (Hawks, North & the Doggies) A hit and run mission? We'll take 3 of your teams and from here on in, we won't be recognising anything prior to 1897. There was a complete switch of thinking from that year (1924) An example of what happened prior to 1877 was in 1876 and the final game of the year that turned out to be a de facto premiership decider between Carlton & Melbourne. During the match the Carlton players abused the umpire who then duly stormed off in disgust (umpire abuse & player dissent goes back aways!) It took 15 minutes to find another umpire ('Mr Bride') but the result was disputed by both sides anyway! The match was played on an oval now occupied by the Newman College (Melb Uni) The Demons were awarded the premiership 1977 onwards there's a reasonably strong case to recognise the premierships but a stronger case can be put forward when the competion starts to really hot-up from 1885 (when 8 of the current AFL teams competed ... ongoing) Doggies & Saints joined in 1886 so that year represents an even stronger case ... then later on the Pies (1892) Hawthorn joined up early in the 20th century 12 years on from 1885, the breakaway VFL was formed

Our ratio of GF appearances converted to wins takes a hammering if those forgotten* years end up being counted 3 premierships but 9 times runners-up! And the 1900 flag was seen as a drought breaker ... 24 long, tortuous years since our previous premiership in 1876! *50 pages into Colin Carter's book and he's already made a compelling argument many times over So if you're interested in this sort of historical revision, it's a great way to spend 30 bucks Available at all good book stores! (and online of course) Footnote: Upon analysing the first 8 years, there is a strong case made that the oldest rivalry all-time is the one between Melbourne & Carlton ... closely followed by Geelong & South in the following 10 seasons

I just purchased a signed copy from Dymocks in Hawthorn! Apparently Colin Carter was in the store yesterday and signed the copies that the store had in stock Can't wait to read it! So where we are on the same page Gonzo is our interest in historical happenings

The following is a hypothetical situation only and not something that I would want or wish for So would we recognise the flags won in the AFL/VFL if there happened to be a breakaway league happening in the near future? 12 teams only where all the teams play each other twice Clubs to be discarded ... GWS, Gold Coast, Freo, Crows, North & Saints So do the flags prior count? ... Including that extra long 57 year wait for the 2021 premiership? It would look very much like what happened at the end of 1896 going into 1897 Footnote: The above scenario is highly unlikely but it wasn't so long ago that Rupert (with all his millions) decided to have his own Australia-wide Rugby League competition (Super League)

You make some very good points but I'm of the firm belief that it all started in 1877 SANFL & WAFL have cases but the best competition was always based out of Victoria. It's just a question of from which year You know what, if we'd always counted the lost years (1877-1896) then I reckon those years would be readily accepted by all and sundry And one of the main reasons those years aren't counted (or recognised) is that the new comp (1897 onwards) was in fierce competition with it's former home. VFL vs VFA So much so that players who switched from the VFL to the VFA were banned for 5 years A champion Full Forward in Ron Todd was one such case. Switched from the Pies at the age of 23 to Williamstown for very big money And as stated earlier, this new book at least alerts people to what once was. And our Demon history was a big part of it too It's where we came from ... an example of that is the 1900 Premiership team. Many of those players would have played in the earlier, VFA competion

I reckon it's only fascinating for a very small minority ... a broken fingernail to Clarrie would gain more traction on these boards! But for those few who are interested, it is fascinating

Not sure about counting anything before 1877 (when the new (back then) VFA comp was quite well organised and structured) So that would rule out the 3 extra flags for us (as well as taking 3 flags off Carlton) ... applicable from 1870 to 1876 Google will lead people to each particular year (via Wiki) so 1870 itself seems to be more about games organised on the go! No real structure and an uneven amount of games played by the competing clubs But I'm highly doubtful that anything will change with regards to the premiership count. I'd change it but I'm part of s small minority However, it's good that this past history has been brought to life and it will get people thinking. There's lots of people interested in historical data especially when the newspapers of the day verify that data

I see the 1897 breakaway league as a new league that discarded the teams that didn't fit their criteria In effect the same league minus 4 or 5 teams. It's not like there were any new teams included. They were teams that already existed in the prior league The VFA continued on but it was obviously not a patch on the 1877-1896 league And this is where people judge in an incorrect way (I believe) ... we associate the VFA as a lesser competion with teams like Brunswick or Caulfield when in reality, the VFA prior to 1897 was the premier league All the best teams played in that league or derived from that league and that is indisputable Put away any bias or prejudice and it should be recognised as such (the Premier football competition) We can agree to disagree Gonzo but I'm probably as passionate about this revelation as Carter is In fact, I've been banging on about it with mates for over 30 years. One of my pet hates is ignoring history. I've spent hours and days pouring over old archive newspapers in the State library from that era. Trust me, footy was huge back in the 19th century ... with big crowds considering only about 650,000 people lived in Melbourne at that time

Kozzie (or his management) has probably received a decent offer elsewhere but I reckon we'll find the money to match that offer I can't see us letting him go on top of Jackson going. It's one thing replacing Jackson with Grundy but who is going to replace a talent like Kozzie? Remembering that with the new broadcast rights kicking in, our salary cap will have more space (in theory) I'm betting that he'll re-sign. When? Might be sometime in the 2nd half of the season

You've got me on a technicality The point is still quite valid for those not afraid to embrace history Those against might have a hidden agenda ... they don't want Carlton, Essendon & Geelong getting all those extra flags

Our 3 extra flags is something that I'll have a look at too. Whilst I know about the overall flag winners in the VFA (1877 - 1896) I don't know a great deal about 1870 - 1876 It's also fascination that all the teams that competed in 1896 are all still around today and doing ok (even Port & Willy)

I'd say virtually nothing is know in the mainstream ... it's a bit like the era prior to the SuperBowl era in the NFL. As the years roll on the SuperBowl era dominates the talk and what happened prior gets more and more ignored As for the footy, there would be a large percentage of people who probably think that the first game of footy was played in 1897 The other part is what was so different from 1 year to the next? (1896 to 1897) It was the same league with less teams. One could argue that 1896 was stronger and more competitive as Willy, Port & North were reasonably competitive in 1896 (ironically the Cats & Blues were at the base of the ladder in 1896) So it wasn't necessarily a stronger comp in 1897 Anyway, I'm going to buy the book and I'll lend it to you if we catch up at the local. haha

For those who don't know, the Tigers and North were excluded from the new league as they were regarded as thugs, and Port, Willy & the 'Scrays were not included because their grounds were deemed too far away to travel to (on muddy roads in the horse & cart days) Ironically Richmond, Footscray & North all rejoined the VFL later on And Essendon played at East Melbourne for logistical reasons as well (?) The Cats were included at the last moment I believe but I don't know why The book is a must read for myself as I've been fascinated by the era prior to 1897 Per capita, the crowds were huge and footy was just as big a talking point as it is now

Ming Dynasty was a long time ago layz, but you're happy to recognise it in all its form (?)

An emphatic yes from me! Why ignore history and footy was huge before 1897 The breakaway league formed in 1897 was effectively the same league minus a few teams Similar to how the AFL was formed back in 1991 (was it?)

Years ago when the team (Demons) was crud I once made mention here that if the team was as competitive as many of the posters, we'd never lose a game!! Hard luck on your 49ers layz, but you needed a fit and fiting QB just to have a sporting chance ... especially in the Eagles house And it's always an achievement to at least compete in the championship game. 28 teams didn't make it that far

Ha ha! The current leaderboard resembles the 2003 Brownlow ... if I recall, 3 won on 22 that year, another 3 had 21 votes and yet another 3 had 19 votes. 2 more on 18? With us it's who blinks first or we all hold off as long as possible! We're a competitive bunch

Well, there's been some real movement in the tipping comp! Leaderboard Post Season Tipping Comp* 21 - JV7, DeeSpencer 20 - Go the Biff, Clintosaurus, Gorgoroth 19 - Dr.Gonzo, Macca 16 - Dee Zephyr 15 - layzie 13 - DemonDave In theory, anyone can still win with a rotal of 10 points to play for next week *Subject to a proof-read

Yeah you're right ... good pick up I was bound to make an error sooner or later!!

Leaderboard Post Season Tipping Comp 20 - Gorgoroth (KC 1-6) 19 - Dr.Gonzo (Cinci 1-6) 17 - Clintosuarus (KC 7-12) 16 - Dee Zephyr (Cinci 7-12) Macca (KC 7-12) 15 - layzie (Cinci 7-12) DeeSpencer (KC 1-6) JV7 (KC 1-6) 14 - Go the Biff (KC 1-6) 13 - DemonDave (Cinci 13+)