Macca

And Melksham will be back towards the end of the season. As you said, Kozzie out for the first game only But 7 out is umprecedented, all the same Which leaves us with this ... If Clarrie is in the side we can use Petracca more forward but without Oliver, it might be a risk using Petracca away from the midfield If all goes well, the forward line we're left with might be able to help us win the game but a lot might rest with Fritsch. Chandler & JVR are 2 others who can impact the scoreboard

If you were able to look at things in a calm, considered & rational manner, you'd be able to see the logic in us not using Schache (who was the reserve ruck for Gawn) T-Mac was also the 2nd ruck so he had to play. Every other KPF was unavailable And even a 3/4 fit T-Mac is a better bet than Schache. And we couldn't take T-Mac off as Gawn might have had to come off soon after Gawn was carrying a broken toe so Schache was the sub in reserve Schache up until now hasn't proven himself to be a contested beast and that includes how he is as a ruckman (non physical) And lose all that anger, calm down I've heard everything now You and Wyl make a good pair as both your football knowledge is highly questionable You and he won't accept that we had a forward line that was decimated But maybe the result will miraculously change with the avalanche of complaining In my view, bringing Schache on wouldn't have made much difference at all And if we did bring Schache on for T-Mac, we ran the risk of not being able to replace Gawn if he broke down Has anyone here ever played high level sport with a lot of running, clashes & jumping involved with a broken toe? For a month long period? So, we did need Schache as the sub if Gawn had to pull the pin We just used the sub in a different way to how a sub is often used So in reply, can you at least try and be calm & rational? A question for you Do you believe Neale Daniher was making excuses when he referenced all our injuries early in 2007? (Neitz & Robbo amongst others were out injured at the time)

Memory is fading but I know I was at Vic Park in '76 but probably a couple of times in the early 70's It was great seeing Big Max Walker but he was up against a good player in Thommo A number of Demon premiership players though and you could still see the Smith influence with the attack on the ball and the ability to get to the front position (Beckwith had taken over in '68) As for the Duke (Windsor), he's got big wraps on him and we know how good Jason Taylor is in identifying talent. Both he & the Kolt will debut early you'd imagine as there is often a flow-on effect when so many players are injured in one part of the ground (in our case, the forward line) With Caleb, I like his first 2 or 3 steps and with the Kolt, it's his awareness and head over the ball Both could be rippers!

In September, the pressure is immense and when the ball is rushed forward under pressure, you need big bodied forwards who can compete, take a grab and bring the ball to ground Look at Ben Brown's role in the 2021 GF. He continually worked his way to the front position even though he knew he wasn't going to take a mark every time. He played the percentages and played a mighty role for his team In the Carlton game I'd have gone with T-Mac (but deep forward) and tried someone like Tomlinson at CHF (Turner could have taken Tomlinson's spot down back) And no Schache at all as Tomlinson, Turner or T-Mac can cover for 15% of ruck time However, It's important to note that I'm using hindsight as my friend and that's not keeping it real

Ok but as far back as can be remembered, we go in with at least 2 KPF's (and sometimes with the 2nd ruck deep forward) To only go with a player like Schache who is yet to prove himself as a KPF is going to leave us short (no pun intended) Have you got another KPF to combine with Schache? Need 2, not 1

Hey P-man, when are you going to put forward your predictions thread? Right now, it could make for some interesting reading!!

Thanks Civ but mine is still just a guess based on the initial dropping of Grundy (you probably know more, haha) I can't recall the last player dispensed with who was actually doing well at his stock-in-trade (rucking) The circumstances were absolutely unique Normally I'd be proclaiming for Brodie to act like a professional but we as a club contributed to his undoing. It's a 2-way street And I don't believe the relationship ended in a bad way so there ends up being bad blood ... more so that we tried something and it didn't work Brodie gets to be a starter at another club and still gets all the money. We save all that money and continue our search for another forward-ruck And that ruckman may well be Fullarton as all the lad might need is an opportunity

Sure, but who are the other 2 experienced key forwards that we could have picked? Brown & Petty were both out injured and JVR was suspended Come up with 2 names, Wyl You can't just talk about the problem without offering up alternates I'll help you out though, we had no other experienced KPF's so we would have had to play 2 novice KF's Give us 2 names

@WalkingCivilWar Let's not put aside the ego factor with a player who is on a $Million a year running around at Casey And he didn't get dropped because of any other reason that he wasn't a forward and we needed to get Gawn back into the ruck And that was our choice and our directive, not Brodie's (playing as a forward) At the same time, Gawn was really struggling up forward Something had to give So he gets dumped and then Gawn remarks, "He took it like a man" ... that sounds like a statement that finalises things (in my view) His manager then starts shopping Grundy around 'before' the end of the season seemingly with our blessing (the elephant in the room being the $3Million contract that we now need to offload) So given all that, as well as both party's (Swans & Demons) not really wanting him to get injured, it's any wonder he wasn't under consideration And if he was under consideration, he's an infinitely better option as a back up ruckman, than Schache Again, does ego play a part for someone like Grundy if the only option is as the sub? It's not like we were going to use him up forward ... that ship had sailed

I can see why they took a chance on T-Mac but we probably needed to play some sort of other big-bodied key forward as well But if that other KPF was needed to play in front, put his body on the line and take the punishment, I'm not sure it would have been Schache We could have thrown Tomlinson forward and brought Turner into the 22 (in the backline) I'm a big believer in having 2 KPF's who can do the hard yards (especially in finals) Even Collingwood were prepared to bring in a big body like Frampton even though he's a fairly ordinary footballer But big bodied forwards require match-ups and attention. If you don't play them close they can take grabs and become more than nuisance value And if they can take the front position and bring the ball to ground, the smalls can capitalise 3rd & 4th forwards such as Fritsch & Smith can't be expected to play that sort of role. They haven't got the body strength to carry out such a task

So you've got Schache as a key forward against Sydney (assuming Fullarton doesn't come up) It may happen but I don't believe Goodwin sees Schache as a KPF ... we had numerous chances to play him forward last year but he kept getting overlooked despite the losses of our key forwards He wasn't even a break-glass-in-emergency reserve as we thought he might have been However, we're down to the bones now, so if T-Mac & McAdam don't come up, we might have to play Schache forward

It wasn't a subtle dig, there was no subtlety about it! Those loading conversations were monstrous and I'm not sure that we ever came to any sort on consensus on the subject matter Just a whole lot of back & forth Actually, the conversations on loading didn't particularly bother me because if we shut down debate, we may as well close the site I will defend the rights of those who I disagree with

It won't be me but numerous others are going to bring up the non use of the sub (in the Carlton SF) in various threads in the future. More so those who were dissatisfied with the outcome Same as there is still the odd reference to perceived draft choice blunders (Toumpas/Wines) or even umpiring decisions (for instance, the last minute non decision against Adelaide in 2021 still gets brought up from time to time) Besides which, the SF loss and why we lost is related to those here who are saying we will drop down the ladder The back and forth happens because no one wants to give ground. The arguments end up like how the 2 sides of politics argue Like all those hundreds of player 'Loading' conversations ... in numerous threads back and forth and it seemed to go on forever (months) At least this conversation on the non use of the sub has only been going for a couple of days

We lost the game by 2 points, not 10 goals. One kick in it You'll be complaining about the SF loss to Carlton for the next 10 years by the sounds of it Pardon me for not beating myself up over a loss If it were the Bailey & Neeld years you'd be making a good point. But back then we really were crud My attitude is that we've still got a very good list with good coaching and the future is bright We just need a bit of luck with injuries and we'll be right in it And getting into contention doesn't guarantee success. To win multiple flags requires getting into contention a heap of times You're not always going to win it. Flags are hard to win

Well, after analysing all the data, I believe the MC made the right decision to have Schache as the sub Without Schache in reserve we'd have 1 ruckman in Gawn (with a broken toe) and 1 key position forward (T-Mac) who also had to act as the 2nd ruck Let's say that we had Woewodin as the sub instead and then Gawn can't go on Who rucks? Or if T-Mac couldn't go on, who's our KPF? Anyone, I'm not posting this up to change your mind. That's a futile exercise But others might be able to see my point and hopefully, make sense of it

If Gawn had to come off after T-Mac is already off we'd be down to 3 on the interchange And if Schache is the first ruck we'd have no KPF You haven't thought this through as you've convinced yourself that we wasted the sub Anyway, sleep on it and see if what I'm saying makes sense in the morning If you get your head around Schache being the replacement for Gawn (primarily) then it follows that Schache might not get on the ground And guess what? That's what happened

So Schache is a KPF & First ruck at the same time? Remembering that T-Mac was subbed off at half time according to your judgement (so he can't come back on) And if Gawn has to come off because of the broken toe he's probably off for good as well We'd only have 3 on the interchange

Good luck to the 49ers supporters on this thread ... @layzie @DemonDave @titan_uranus @Go the Biff & @Whispering_Jack You'll have to beat a great team to win but if you do beat the Chiefs, you'll be worthy winners A fair bit rests with Purdy but all the areas surrounding the QB are strong But I reckon if you do win, it will be your defence that will win it for you. It's been your strength all season

T-Mac can be useful for selected games if he can get his body right. And the reason why T-Mac still has to be in the conversation is that Petty has to get over his foot issues And Brown is in the reckoning as well because in an ideal world, the MC would prefer 2 bona-fide key forwards So it's JVR & Petty or JVR and ???? Many are envisaging JVR to CHF so the 3 aforementioned players can play deep forward The tricky part is the 2nd ruck and whether Schache or Fullarton get into the 22. If Max is 100% fit, then it's doubtful we'd use the 2nd ruck as the sub again If so, then maybe JVR has to spend limited time rucking (forward line only?) And someone else down back to cover a few ruck duals. If Tomlinson is the 3rd tall backman, maybe him The over-riding question is whether T-Mac & Brown can get their bodies right at all So if all 3 don't come up, who is the 2nd key forward, DS? (I put forward Tomlinsin but with no confidence)

Yes, the issue of Grundy possibly getting injured was a 2 way factor For our club, we've got a player who we don't really need anymore on a deal worth close on $3Million for another 4 years And we knew he was off to a club of his own choice so we needed to get him there without any hiccups Plus, the other factors that have been raised ... for instance, if it only came down to a choice between Grundy & Schache as the reserve ruckman only, I'vd got no doubt that we would have chosen Grundy under normal circumstances (but would he have been happy as the sub?) But the circumstances were complicated The red herring was Gawn's broken toe which many had forgotten about (of course, at the time, we were largely pre-occupied with the Maynard tribunal hearing) Max Gawn Broken Toe (carried for a number weeks)

I prefer posters who keep it real And again, if we'd taken T-Mac off what happens if we then needed to take Gawn off (broken toe)

@58er If we'd taken T-Mac off for Schache, what might we have done if Gawn then needed to come off with his brokren toe?

Yes, there are better and far more mature ways of critiquing your team or players without resorting to using terms such as weak, insipid, soft underbelly and wetting the bed etc etc And as @Slartibartfast mentioned, even a banged up T-Mac is better value than Schache And if he was only a reserve for Max, he wasn't needed Main issue ... the lack of quality forwards and we're confronted with the same issue this year (so far)

You ask a lot of questions but most of them look like the questions of someone who needs to be educated about how we went about it in the SF

No it's not that We took a chance on T-Mac and it didn't work. We had no other KPF's other than Schache and as a KPF, Schache has done virtually nothing So even a banged up T-Mac is better than Schache