Macca

The one who we can probably rely on is Melksham. When he gets back, he could end up as a plug in and play. He's a bit of a fitness freak You might be right on Petty but I'm holding out hope that he recovers. If Petty doesn't get back at all then all bets are off. But I don't want to think in those terms. Who does? I don't know anything about Oliver's circumstances but on purely football terms, he could play every game once his fitness gets up to speed ... and that could be sooner rather than later I would not be at all surprised if Tomlinson is added to the forward line. Certainly over Schache who I don't think the coach has much faith in Hore or Howes can play back as the 3rd tallish defender And as the year progresses, Jefferson might come into the reckoning. As might Fullarton

Anyway, he's got roughly 3 years to make a contribution then He's not in my best forward line, all the same HF Fritsch JVR ANB/ Petracca F Kozzie Petty Melksham Chandler as a 7th forward rotating in McAdam next in line I'd give that forward line above at least a B+ Our current forward line C- There's lies the difference between being a genuine premiership chance or maybe just as a finalist So we need Petty & Melksham back in, in order to have a great chance to contend (providing we don't get a rash of injuries elsewhere) But neither have to be available right now in order for the team to win more games than it loses In 2021, we won our first 9 games but we were at full strength from the get-go This year, we have to be patient in terms of having a close on full list to choose from

Yeah I am, we just need to go better than break even until our forward line woes are fixed. Petty & Melksham will be back as will Oliver So if we can be 5 & 3 after 8 rounds (Dogs, Port, Crows, Tigers, Cats & Hawks are no world beaters) we can then get on a roll when at full strength Melk won't be back until late in the season but he'll be a bonus player when he does return. In the meantime, McAdam will have his chance to shine So we don't have to start the season in a dynamic fashion, we just need to eke out wins and hold firm We have new info as in the last week, T-Mac, McAdam & Fullarton have been added to the injury list so we're going to have to find a way I'm still bullish that we can get into contention because we have a tremendous defence and a fabulous midfield But if you want to give up all hope, that's your choice. Maybe you've been out in the sun too much? Perhaps you need to get into the shade 😁

Yeah, may be, re Clarrie & Trac Maybe a bit of both, mix and match. One thing is for sure, we need a bit of class up forward Billings can add to our midfield mix but he's not noted for his goalkicking prowess McAdam has just turned 29 and could be the one if he can get himself reasonably fit ... in his 50 games he has kicked 2-4 goals on 21 occasions. So every other week (in rough terms) he impacts the scoreboard I don't watch enough football to know what McAdam's 'assist' rate might be

Schache was the no.2 pick in his draft year so players picked that high nearly always get longer to prove themselves or get 2 or 3 chances at different clubs (unless they live up to the no.2 pick and the expectations) Schache getting picked as the 2nd KPF may well happen but my expections wouldn't be high However, if he comes into the side and does well, I'll be the first to congratulate him

It is going to be tough and Petty is one of the vital cogs (in terms of the team being able to win 3 finals) I'm not sure we can win 3 finals with T-Mac or Brown as a KPF. Not impossible if surrounded by class but nonetheless, a big ask given their injury history. We can always use one as a decoy leading a defender away from the contest But if we can get Petty back at some stage, we're a chance. The X-factor players are Melksham and maybe McAdam We just need to be slightly better than break even in the W/L stakes until we get somewhere close to full strength in the forward line And we need Clarrie to play more games than he misses and definitely be available at the business end The forward line below allows us to be a proper contender HF Fritsch JVR ANB/Petracca F Kozzie Petty Melksham Chandler as the 7th forward rotating Petracca & ANB to share the role on one HFF But that forward line can't happen until Melksham returns And Melksham had found his niche as a defensive forward type and by the looks of it, is very determined to get back I'll back him in to get back to his best even though age is also a factor with Jake. He was a revelation late last season before he did his knee ... and as the 5th or 6th forward, he can be very dangerous. In his absence, it's probably McAdam

Yes, we need our starting forwards back as we could drop any given game until at least a few return We can still win any of the games as well as we might be able to cover their loss (our lack of forwards) I'd take a 5 & 3 start to the season right now as our class elsewhere is going to help us win games. But that could end up being 4 & 4 or even as good as 7 & 1 if augers well. Right now a long shot (7 & 1) but you never know And if our forward line is fit & firing from that point, we can go on a run For the record, here are our first 8 games (A) Sydney (H) Bulldogs (A) Hawthorn (MCG) (A) Port Adelaide (A) Crows (H) Brisbane) (A) Richmond (MCG) (H) Geelong But you'd imagine our forward line will start getting stronger by the Port game at least ... maybe earlier but maybe later We just don't know about what the state of forward line is going to look like (game to game) Compare that to the backline & midfield where things are quite stable

Any chance of a Hogan return was snuffled when GWS gave him another 2 years late last season But I reckon that ship had sailed anyway (on reflection) But we couldn't have predicted all these injuries to all our talls anyway Fair enough with Brown or T-Mac but both? As well as Petty out and the possible forward/ruck in Fullarton out as well And the other 3rd or 4th forwards in Melksham & McAdam are unavailable as well. Kozzie out suspended. Smith out for however long? That's 8 forwards out for round 1 and having that many forwards out is going to affect our W/L record unless we start getting them fit & firing again And the above is not designed to take away anyone's hope as Kozzie will be back in round 2 and Petty will present fit sooner or later. As will McAdam for a bit of X-factor And Fullarton might be the answer to our 2nd ruck issues when his body is good to go As Neale Daniher said around round 5 or 6 in 2007 ... "Yeah, we're a bit banged up right now" (or words to that effect)

I reckon we'll need to see a fair sample size of Schache as a forward before we start proclaiming him as the 2nd coming of Jono Brown I genuinely wish him well if picked but I don't have high expectations. Maybe we can use him as a decoy Remembering that we had numerous chances to play him last year but he kept getting overlooked. Not sure the coach has him in his plans (at least as a forward) In my view, we extended his contract by 1 year so as he could be a back up ruckman (of sorts) i.e. if Gawn can't play for whatever reason, we need back up and with Fullarton not being available right now, Schache is next in line (before Verrall & Farris-White)

And Melksham will be back towards the end of the season. As you said, Kozzie out for the first game only But 7 out is umprecedented, all the same Which leaves us with this ... If Clarrie is in the side we can use Petracca more forward but without Oliver, it might be a risk using Petracca away from the midfield If all goes well, the forward line we're left with might be able to help us win the game but a lot might rest with Fritsch. Chandler & JVR are 2 others who can impact the scoreboard

If you were able to look at things in a calm, considered & rational manner, you'd be able to see the logic in us not using Schache (who was the reserve ruck for Gawn) T-Mac was also the 2nd ruck so he had to play. Every other KPF was unavailable And even a 3/4 fit T-Mac is a better bet than Schache. And we couldn't take T-Mac off as Gawn might have had to come off soon after Gawn was carrying a broken toe so Schache was the sub in reserve Schache up until now hasn't proven himself to be a contested beast and that includes how he is as a ruckman (non physical) And lose all that anger, calm down I've heard everything now You and Wyl make a good pair as both your football knowledge is highly questionable You and he won't accept that we had a forward line that was decimated But maybe the result will miraculously change with the avalanche of complaining In my view, bringing Schache on wouldn't have made much difference at all And if we did bring Schache on for T-Mac, we ran the risk of not being able to replace Gawn if he broke down Has anyone here ever played high level sport with a lot of running, clashes & jumping involved with a broken toe? For a month long period? So, we did need Schache as the sub if Gawn had to pull the pin We just used the sub in a different way to how a sub is often used So in reply, can you at least try and be calm & rational? A question for you Do you believe Neale Daniher was making excuses when he referenced all our injuries early in 2007? (Neitz & Robbo amongst others were out injured at the time)

Memory is fading but I know I was at Vic Park in '76 but probably a couple of times in the early 70's It was great seeing Big Max Walker but he was up against a good player in Thommo A number of Demon premiership players though and you could still see the Smith influence with the attack on the ball and the ability to get to the front position (Beckwith had taken over in '68) As for the Duke (Windsor), he's got big wraps on him and we know how good Jason Taylor is in identifying talent. Both he & the Kolt will debut early you'd imagine as there is often a flow-on effect when so many players are injured in one part of the ground (in our case, the forward line) With Caleb, I like his first 2 or 3 steps and with the Kolt, it's his awareness and head over the ball Both could be rippers!

In September, the pressure is immense and when the ball is rushed forward under pressure, you need big bodied forwards who can compete, take a grab and bring the ball to ground Look at Ben Brown's role in the 2021 GF. He continually worked his way to the front position even though he knew he wasn't going to take a mark every time. He played the percentages and played a mighty role for his team In the Carlton game I'd have gone with T-Mac (but deep forward) and tried someone like Tomlinson at CHF (Turner could have taken Tomlinson's spot down back) And no Schache at all as Tomlinson, Turner or T-Mac can cover for 15% of ruck time However, It's important to note that I'm using hindsight as my friend and that's not keeping it real

Ok but as far back as can be remembered, we go in with at least 2 KPF's (and sometimes with the 2nd ruck deep forward) To only go with a player like Schache who is yet to prove himself as a KPF is going to leave us short (no pun intended) Have you got another KPF to combine with Schache? Need 2, not 1

Hey P-man, when are you going to put forward your predictions thread? Right now, it could make for some interesting reading!!

Thanks Civ but mine is still just a guess based on the initial dropping of Grundy (you probably know more, haha) I can't recall the last player dispensed with who was actually doing well at his stock-in-trade (rucking) The circumstances were absolutely unique Normally I'd be proclaiming for Brodie to act like a professional but we as a club contributed to his undoing. It's a 2-way street And I don't believe the relationship ended in a bad way so there ends up being bad blood ... more so that we tried something and it didn't work Brodie gets to be a starter at another club and still gets all the money. We save all that money and continue our search for another forward-ruck And that ruckman may well be Fullarton as all the lad might need is an opportunity

Sure, but who are the other 2 experienced key forwards that we could have picked? Brown & Petty were both out injured and JVR was suspended Come up with 2 names, Wyl You can't just talk about the problem without offering up alternates I'll help you out though, we had no other experienced KPF's so we would have had to play 2 novice KF's Give us 2 names

@WalkingCivilWar Let's not put aside the ego factor with a player who is on a $Million a year running around at Casey And he didn't get dropped because of any other reason that he wasn't a forward and we needed to get Gawn back into the ruck And that was our choice and our directive, not Brodie's (playing as a forward) At the same time, Gawn was really struggling up forward Something had to give So he gets dumped and then Gawn remarks, "He took it like a man" ... that sounds like a statement that finalises things (in my view) His manager then starts shopping Grundy around 'before' the end of the season seemingly with our blessing (the elephant in the room being the $3Million contract that we now need to offload) So given all that, as well as both party's (Swans & Demons) not really wanting him to get injured, it's any wonder he wasn't under consideration And if he was under consideration, he's an infinitely better option as a back up ruckman, than Schache Again, does ego play a part for someone like Grundy if the only option is as the sub? It's not like we were going to use him up forward ... that ship had sailed

I can see why they took a chance on T-Mac but we probably needed to play some sort of other big-bodied key forward as well But if that other KPF was needed to play in front, put his body on the line and take the punishment, I'm not sure it would have been Schache We could have thrown Tomlinson forward and brought Turner into the 22 (in the backline) I'm a big believer in having 2 KPF's who can do the hard yards (especially in finals) Even Collingwood were prepared to bring in a big body like Frampton even though he's a fairly ordinary footballer But big bodied forwards require match-ups and attention. If you don't play them close they can take grabs and become more than nuisance value And if they can take the front position and bring the ball to ground, the smalls can capitalise 3rd & 4th forwards such as Fritsch & Smith can't be expected to play that sort of role. They haven't got the body strength to carry out such a task

So you've got Schache as a key forward against Sydney (assuming Fullarton doesn't come up) It may happen but I don't believe Goodwin sees Schache as a KPF ... we had numerous chances to play him forward last year but he kept getting overlooked despite the losses of our key forwards He wasn't even a break-glass-in-emergency reserve as we thought he might have been However, we're down to the bones now, so if T-Mac & McAdam don't come up, we might have to play Schache forward

It wasn't a subtle dig, there was no subtlety about it! Those loading conversations were monstrous and I'm not sure that we ever came to any sort on consensus on the subject matter Just a whole lot of back & forth Actually, the conversations on loading didn't particularly bother me because if we shut down debate, we may as well close the site I will defend the rights of those who I disagree with

It won't be me but numerous others are going to bring up the non use of the sub (in the Carlton SF) in various threads in the future. More so those who were dissatisfied with the outcome Same as there is still the odd reference to perceived draft choice blunders (Toumpas/Wines) or even umpiring decisions (for instance, the last minute non decision against Adelaide in 2021 still gets brought up from time to time) Besides which, the SF loss and why we lost is related to those here who are saying we will drop down the ladder The back and forth happens because no one wants to give ground. The arguments end up like how the 2 sides of politics argue Like all those hundreds of player 'Loading' conversations ... in numerous threads back and forth and it seemed to go on forever (months) At least this conversation on the non use of the sub has only been going for a couple of days

We lost the game by 2 points, not 10 goals. One kick in it You'll be complaining about the SF loss to Carlton for the next 10 years by the sounds of it Pardon me for not beating myself up over a loss If it were the Bailey & Neeld years you'd be making a good point. But back then we really were crud My attitude is that we've still got a very good list with good coaching and the future is bright We just need a bit of luck with injuries and we'll be right in it And getting into contention doesn't guarantee success. To win multiple flags requires getting into contention a heap of times You're not always going to win it. Flags are hard to win

Well, after analysing all the data, I believe the MC made the right decision to have Schache as the sub Without Schache in reserve we'd have 1 ruckman in Gawn (with a broken toe) and 1 key position forward (T-Mac) who also had to act as the 2nd ruck Let's say that we had Woewodin as the sub instead and then Gawn can't go on Who rucks? Or if T-Mac couldn't go on, who's our KPF? Anyone, I'm not posting this up to change your mind. That's a futile exercise But others might be able to see my point and hopefully, make sense of it

If Gawn had to come off after T-Mac is already off we'd be down to 3 on the interchange And if Schache is the first ruck we'd have no KPF You haven't thought this through as you've convinced yourself that we wasted the sub Anyway, sleep on it and see if what I'm saying makes sense in the morning If you get your head around Schache being the replacement for Gawn (primarily) then it follows that Schache might not get on the ground And guess what? That's what happened