Demon Dynasty

Rucks then were allowed to grab the ball too without penalty if tackled. I don't think this counted as a hitout but there were a lot of grabs and if I remember Stynes was quite adept at grabs.

Spot on Daisy. I recall Jimmy doing this on a number of occasions. Scored a number of goals doing so too. Almost a ruck rover type in terms of his following role. He played alongside Strawbs O'dwyer for a time and would sometimes scout the pack for the crumb when he wasn't in the main rucking dual and off he'd go. I'm probably spouting stuff that most peeps know already i realise.

I always believed he had the mind of a classic ruck rover/utility type from that era in the body of a ruckman lol.

I recall heading into the rooms after a match at Waverley park where we'd smashed the Hawks (one of the rare occasions out there ...i think we smashed em. We won anyway lol) on a pretty wet day (what day wasn't pretty wet and windy out there!?). I spotted him amongst the boys having their drinks etc and yelled out at the top of my lungs "Hey Jimmy! Great roving mate!". Suffice to say he looked around a little non-plussed wondering what the hec i was on about lol. Believe me when i say i was on plenty ....again ...HIC!

For me Simon Madden and maybe Paul Salmon for their ability to turn a match on it's head. Lenny Thompson was also pretty steadfast and had to be up there winning a brownlow. And John Nichols for his man mountain marking, opponents inability to move him in a ruck contest and (what i thought at the time as i was a little tacker) were amazingly long torpedoes lol! And maybe they were! So many others from past years (Polly Farmer etc). How could you possibly say how he ranks versus all of them.

I just recall Madden turned so many games for the Bombers (from memory), especially out at Windy Hill. Seem to recall us almost putting them to the sword on a few occasions out there, only to have him star in the final quarters (among others who starred for the Bombers) and they'd turn the game. Me and bro walking home with long faces on most occasions. I only recall one win out there (and even that's vague now...actually it was probably all a little vague after half time lol) in all my years trudging out there.

Stynes was a stalwart rock of a player though and IMO different to the more traditional style of ruckman produced up till then. As someone said in a post, can't grab ball out of ruck today which would hinder his style somewhat. I'm sure he'd adapt though. Not sure where i'd rate Cox and Sandilands in comparison.

Personally i think people forget how relatively good (or maybe not so depending on where you sit) these historic players are unless one sees some extensive old video to jog the memory before trying to compare to latter day players.

I'm sure there's many many great/quality ruckman i've missed and didn't have the fortune of seeing that others will remember.

As you said, his stats sure hold up against these two though (in most areas).

I'd just like to see his defensive side back or close to where it once was. Offensively i think he's almost there, with the exception that he short passes way too often IMO. Like him to look up the ground a little more and spot out the longer option for passing too (if the option is on that is). Otherwise i'm happy with short side if he has to (attempted 10 metre pass to Moloney in heavy traffic last week an exception....grrr lol).

But defensively, as an example, I recall going back a year or so he was one of only a few players at the club with the speed,desire,effort required to chase down opponents from behind and cause valuable turnovers. Maybe i've missed it, but he doesn't seem to do this much of late.

Better tell that to Dougy too WYL lol. Anyone hear him on S.E.N. this morning?

Fev has much to prove, mostly to himself. A nice fairytale if he can come out and prove that he's not as washed up/carrying unplayable baggage & scars as is being suggested by all his doomsayers. Be a shame if he wastes all that talent from here.

It's not like he's bashed someone silly etc. Just got a problem with the jolly juice. Aint the first and wont be the last in the AFL to have had that. 25 - 30 years ago his misdemeanors off field wouldn't have rated much.

I for one hopes he can overcome his addiction to the pale ale and whatever other vice/s he might be having problems with, if any, and comes out playing some great AFL footy once again, regardless of the club.

Good luck to him.

He might even kick arse out there IF he makes it back. (As long as it's not ours and he doesn't put a filth/hawks/bombers/crows jumper on lol)

B)

No one can deny that a Brendan Fevola with a perfect attitude and more intelligence would be EXACTLY the type of player we could use right now.

It's a shame that he's got an IQ of 4

Nicely put Sylvin. Oh btw, you aren't a Silvagni fan are you?

Lol at WYL. Yep. Lookin forward to that. I'd suggest you duck O.D!

Rhino i'm dissapointed mate. You didn't take that stiff drink before answering

SOLD! Dunn, Bater, Juice and 1st round pick for Patton lol!

Paul does have something here. Not saying he's right or wrong. However.....

Fev is such an emotional viewpoint for most followers of the AFL. He's an enigma for sure and what's happened to him (to himself) has been somewhat tragic....so far.

I also believe he wouldn't be playing again if there wasn't something there in terms of him turning this around for himself. Then again, he's had many chances. I realise where he's at, and that most have given up on him and the reasons why etc.

However, hypothetically speaking .... (Rhino...go take a hard shot of somethin off the top shelf before you read this...and go off!! ) ....

Surely a winning culture within ANY club has to be better for a group of younger developing players than a perpetual losing one. And by that i mean losing more than you win ratio wise (eg., only wining 30% to 40% of games on average over a development cycle).

Lets just say Fev comes in. Everything clicks (Fairytale i know). Lets say we were to improve our win/loss ratio to something like 50% in the next 12 - 18 months as a result of his inclusion and our younger brigade coming on nicely, with a further improvement thereafter. And cutting our losses from abysmal (as many are at the moment) to something more along the lines of being what you would expect from an improving AFL team vying for a position in the top 8 and climbing the ladder (like the cream is coming to the top whether we win or lose is what i'm trying to say). Surely that has to be a better feeling/culture for the newbies as they develop? To offer them an improved environment/culture moving forward to 2013/2014 when we aim for the big one.

BTW I hate dialing up years like that. If someone can predict the year in which we'll win the big one can they please let me know lol?

And no, I don't think Fev IS the answer medium to long term either (gettin a bit long in the tooth anyway lol). However, wouldn't it be somewhat foolish of the FD/MFC to dismiss it outright, without giving him at least some consideration?

Now, again hypothetically speaking. Lets say he has an amazing remainder of the year at Casey kicking bags and starring (this includes putting massive forward pressure on opponents inside 50 like he was able to at times when he was in great form). And you take a look at him and think...hmmm...maybe he's turned this around. He's on track again.

IF you were gonna take a punt with Fev. Is there any possibility we could sign him as a rookie/veteran (for next year) and have him on a rolling VERY short term STRICT performance contract? Maybe 3 or 6 months. That way he could be axed without much notice if he does end up going back to his old habits or we have a problem with him re: other SEVERE team discipline issues etc etc. He will also then know he has to perform and that we want results on the field....otherwise

Big risk for sure. But....i guess what i'm saying is....there just maybe...some potential significant upside going into the 2nd half of this year were he to star at Casey. And just maybe, if we protect our butts with a short term rolling performance contract.

Afterall, it's not every day a proven power forward is floating around who can (potentially, if all goes right... and yeh alot would have to go right lol!) kick a bag of goals for us over the next 2 -3 years and help us win more games and maybe, just maybe, help push us into the finals. Finals experience is what our boys would need and crave at some stage in the next few years if they're going to take the next step up i would have thought. And with that experience and development, with or without Fev, bring home our 13th Flag shortly thereafter.

Not saying you don't have good points either Rhino re: 5 goals is not much in the Magoos and should be performing better regardless etc. But like anyone coming off a downer, he may need a little more time to assist with fitness, confidence and just game time on the park to get things right. And if he does? .....just putting this out there.

Impressive on youtube. Must go down to Casey and take a peak.

Reminds me more of Jack Reiwoldt with a bigger leap.

Out Dunn....In Howe. Like it was meant to be!

G. Lyon was about his build (skinny wise) when he first started seniors.

Go GO GO! Don't waste him in the Magoos. Nothing to lose. Time to get some senior games into him. Rotate off the bench with Juice/Jurrah/Petterd as required. Ease him into it. Oh, not including Watts in there. Half back for me for a while. Learn how to crash packs etc..BANG...WATTS!

Something to look forward to. He gonna be a lil ripper!!! YAHOOOO!!

Apologies fellow Deminions. Couldn't scan the entire page and the 2nd image wld have needed inverting in photoshop making it too large to attach. The missing part of the image shows John "Swooper" Northey handing the cup to RF who was injured (one of many) and missed the match. Full image may be on the web somewhere if you wish to look.

Ok it's not the real cup but still a great example of what a severely undermanned team can achieve when the chips are down! Attitude, aggression, effort and a willingness to put it all on the line for the club and each other!

Hope you can read the commentary.

Note Stuey Spencer's comments post match lol!

Loved Bobby.

Best part of the 2007 GF watching him handover the cup!

Some great years on League teams (3 wise monkeys) and The Sunday footy show on 7 as well.

From memory (ie.,my dad) he was one of, if not the last VFL player to use the place kick!

R.I.P.

The term "Pinch hitting" has no place in Aussie rules football! A ridiculous saying coined by Dermott Brereton! Apart from that good post, I'd like to see Max Gawn have a run with Stef back up and leave Juice down forward for 2-3 weeks. should give enough time to see if he ever has a future at MFC

Yeh. Noice. Gawn/Martin (rotating) and Juice forward. Structure for 2 - 3 weeks. Nothing to lose. Not like we got a bunch of "outstanding alternatives" in these positions hangin around eh

Not sure about the censure bit tho. Who the hec introduced that term into this post anyway! ~cough

Whilst I essentially concur with this...it is interesting to note that very much the same barbs were slung Essendons way last year....'nuff said

I like Rpfc's idea re handing over the baton to the younger brigade and allowing them to take us forward into a new year. Baby Demons!!?

And Belze, your first post here (top of this page) in response to Rpfc re schoolboy attitude (not all players but cultural/club wise until now) is spot on mate.

Also i want to make a few points. I believe this club is weighed down as a result of past "acceptance of mediocrity" culture (apologies to Northey group and the few years thereafter under Balme). It will continue to carry this weight until or unless we somehow find a way to cut it out. I guess that's what we're discussing here.

1. By allowing this culture to sustain itself over so many decades now, we have created a rod for our back in 2 ways (some would say countless ways lol). I'm excluding the $ side here as that's another effect altogether.

A: The tangible. Our performances in off/down years (which unfortunately are numerous) are SO bad, and we break so many "worst" results and negative records versus other teams, that for us to beat our Vic rivals away from home (where there's a tangible history) and/or interstate clubs (away from home where there's a tangible history other than GCS for now) it takes a herculeon type of effort. One that's acheivable if everything's in place player/coach/attitude/effort wise. But, if we have a few pieces/players/weaknesses missing....

What i'm alluding to is that most other teams see us (because of our lowly history against them/others) as easy beats away from home. Hence no matter how well we are playing during the game (unless we blitz them out of the blocks and leading by 60 at half time say)....opponents always feel they're in with a chance and they play as if they can win at any stage. Like they have our measure...arrogance, belief.

Whatever you want to call it, IMO our effort required to win and overcome "their belief" that if they put the hard yards/pressure us enough etc and we'll roll over/ our history proves it etc, is fairly massive now in a relative sense. If we have the team/coach/practices/attitude in place we can overcome their belief ....with our belief and play. But at this point we don't....obviously.

IMHO, we need a great team...not just a good team, to overcome even just this aspect of our club going forward. let alone to win a premiership. To win a premiership we will need an AWESOME team full of 2 - 3 super stars and a good mix of big time/big game players.

B: To build a great team, a club needs to attract the best of the best players (obviously) and or recruits and coach. We've done so recently through tanking out (recruiting/rookie wise). But, aside from ending up on our bum again for a few years running (arrghh...wont help for next few years haha), unless we break the cycle and create a new era eg., Cats, then we'll always struggle to attract the type of trades/recruits required to fill the 3, 4 or 5 holes needed to overcome A (above) and to also win the ultimate prize. I also believe we aren't alone here ie., Bulldogs, Richmond, Saints.

The talent/big trades, more renowned coaches (Sheedy an exception as we had a shot and went for... ) tend to always want to go where the recent success is and is likely to continue or to coach lists that look very promising (obviously).

We have a small window now where we have an attractive rookie list with a few decent senior players. Not gonna stay open forever though and and then this era/opportunity is gone. The next 6-8 weeks are going to very interesting times for the MFC i feel.

And I'll take Green out of our equation. Snap.

Stats are like Shakira's hips, they don't lie.

Taking Boomer AND Green out you get average games played ...

Roos: 66.86

Demons: 49.68

And these....

Average games played for players in the following experience categories. Note: I've take the most inexperienced (0-49 games), Next rung up 50 - 99 and the most experienced (100+ games). Can't afford time to split into 150 - 199 etc and frankly there isn't enough players from either team to make the stats meaningful so haven't included these carve outs. Happy to supply excel spreadsheet if needed. But listening to Mick on Sunday, he reckons that most players aren't truly up for the rigours of 4 full quarters of full on footy at AFL level until he has at least 100 games under his belt...so that's why i've used 100+ games for the experienced category. Not very scientific i realise but i think Micks a much better judge (obviously) than i am lol (and saves me time too!):

0-49 Games Played (Average/Number of Players)

Roos: 21.40* / 10

Demons: 26.15^ / 13

*Most inexperienced - Harper, 3 Games

^Most inexperienced - Tapscott, 7 Games

50-99 Games Played (Average/Number of Players)

Roos: 69.33 / 6

Demons: 76.60 / 5

100+ Games Played (Average/Number of Players)

Roos: 191.50* / 6

Demons: 149.25^ / 4

*Most experienced - Harvey, 308 games played

^Most experienced - Green, 227 games played

Cheers Deminions

P.S. Thanks to Sweetman for original stats. Oh, if anyone's interested... i'll probably do this for myself prior to each match once teams are out and IF i have the time. I can post if you want when done...or supply spreadsheet.

B)

Green was moved to the wing because he was not getting any of the footy staying up in the forward line earlier this season.

Jurrah already covers a fair bit of ground, but he is most effective around half-forward.

Moving him to the wing won't achieve much.

Other than GCS, Adelaide (after a load of external pressure and again another win against an interstate club at home) and a few odd quarter spurts in other matches, there hasn't been much footy making it into the forward line for any of our forwards to go nutz on....period. Be interesting to see some comparative inside 25 stats as well.

Not saying he's performing anywhere near expectations though. Disappointing to say the least (so far). And no i'm not singling out Greeny here or intending too. Just discussing. He's got a few mates atm. Lets hope he can turn it around, along with the rest of the boys

he was more dropped due to the fact newton and martin came into the side and can play in the ruck, and he cant, and also because he was the worst player afield, including adelaide players in a 96 point winning side.

Yep. He was most possibly the worst agreed, but he still did a share of (heavy) work in the forward line tackle/body wise and created the occasional (very! lol) contest. And he was still part of a 96 point winning team. Deserved more than a week. A blight on committee for choosing him and confidence destroyer (in one week in a blue moon....out the next for ...umm...Jetta/Bennell??).

Ok, so maybe team balance and forward set demanded it, and Jetta/Bennell not replacing him directly, but still. Horses for courses. Don't need both Jetta AND Bennell (outside runners and puny bods) at the small confines of shiityhed. Could have fitted him in....even as the sub maybe. We'll never know though.

What do you all think of Jurrah moving up the ground (I'm thinking wing) and pushing Green back to the FF line?

Jurrah is impressive in motion and Green is more accurate when he leads and marks. Surely when you are in the situation we are in (with injuries) you can afford to think a little more outside the box?

Interesting points Twister

Green doesn't have tank to handle the middle for too long any more, as well as having to push forward/back etc, then he's also expected to pinch hit as a leading forward too to kick occasional goals! So yeh, forward and rotated off the bench more often as required. Best kick in the team for goal inside 50 (up till this year anyway).

As for Jurrah, i like that as an option however does he have the tank and the defensive side yet? If he doesn't (and i don't think he does other than in spurts tank wise/no effective defensive side yet) then we also get creamed going the other way (assuming he has a hard working/decent opponent) and given he's further up the ground the damage could be worse in terms of positional scoring opportunities on the turnover. Maybe a neutral outcome at best at present given where he's at.

Raw talent alone is not enough at this level i'm afraid. Like many of our newbies, he's got to work much harder if we're going to see the best (and get the best) of Jurrah going forward

Actually, with the Casey side having another bye this week, bringing in a few more kids this week could be a blessing. It won't hurt the Scorps by missing some players this week, and It would give some of them some continuity. It would also add more list pressure on some players who have in the past couple of seasons seen themselves as Automatic selections.

I'm all for giving Gawn and Howe and Evans their first games in the Red & Blue.

I'm with you here Dee. Roll the dice and put pressure on the outs looking to come back, and a few of the worst case performers from Sat. Put e'one on notice that we're willing to look and search (and take chances) to find those who are willing to fly the flag for this club and put it all on the line week to week (even if they are more inexperienced and Magoosters!) No more pretenders and hangers on. All players should have to fight tooth and nail for their place from here.

Honesty and commitment time, whilst showing faith in those who perform over rolling periods versus set KPI's etc. Don't wanna lose all core senior players over a few weeks either as we'd then be throwing the youngsters to the wolves and creating an "every man for himself" mentality rather than a "leaving it all on the park/team" approach. But just a little pressure on the edges so everyone's aware it's no automatic inclusion from here unless you meet your benchmarks/expectations over set periods. And i mean everyone, no senior players should be sacrosanct over these rolling periods of assessment/review either!

Bater should be an inclusion at shiityhed and against the hard/veteran bods of the Saints too. Probably a week too late but bater late than never! Shouldn't have been dropped from previous week (certainly not for either Jetta/Bennell at Shittyhed and certainly shouldn't have changed a side that wins by 96 points the previous week other than for injuries/suspensions and/or serious match up issue/s). First game back for year! Needed 2 - 3 in a row to find his place after such a long stint in Magoos....and to find is AFL level pace (as in the speed of the game not his own speed) and AFL level match fitness too. After that he has to earn his place like everyone else (again against KPI's over X number of weeks, certainly not one week and his first week back for some time! ).

It's for your entertainment Rhino...You're up to over 11,000 posts so i like to keep you active.

Just don't change sentences around to things i haven't said..That is not cool sunshine.

Wish some on our list would show as much venom as you two!

The Attitude of Hawthorn is to "NOT LOSE" same with Essendon...When these clubs dip, the problem is found and fixed. Period.

We at the MFC still bring out excuses.

I would drop Brad Green to Casey next week....That might fix up a problem pretty quick.

If you want to Captain this great Club....earn it.

>> NOT LOSE (find anyway to win!) culture comment.....spot on.

>> Greeny suggestion. Not so spot on. Maybe look for alternative captain somehow. Eg., Moloney. As to how you do this i have no idea, not a shrink . Greeny's being managed poorly position wise. Doesn't have tank engine wise to match it with the big/younger boys in middle now. Leave up forward. Rotate off bench. Use energy to lead, mark and kick goals. After all when he has the energy and he's on....he's the most accurate goal kicker in the team (or was until this season within 50...yep..not saying something's up...but give this option a chance and lets see). Hopefully that'll leave him with something in the tank to also ...CHASE and tackle in our forward 50! (among others!!)

MELBOURNE forward Colin Sylvia says it is time for his club to "stand for something".

Lets hope that the players can actually do something about it now, like Chapman did at Geelong when it made it clear to his team mates during the 07 season that they were not putting in as hard as they could, and thought that they were better than they actually were playing.

I hope someone has an honesty session at Melbourne during the week, the fact that Brereton comments on the talent our list has says something.... he also says in more flowery terms that they are also as soft and lazy as SHI&

Nice Jordie. Although i've heard Dermy trying to solve our cultural problems previously when we've hit the pit in 96 97!!. Suffice to say it had little impact.

As for the Northey comparisons (WYL i think?), i wouldn't say that's a culture we kept around the club for long. Maybe up to 1994. We may have tried to but. Northey departed as we couldn't or didnt want to extend his contract for whatever reasons ($/terms etc) from memory...and with him went the culture he brought and the willingness of the players to die for the jumper. Yes there were a few good years afterwards whilst the players that had come through that culture remained and maintained the effort/practices learnt etc (and we also added the enigma of Jakovich into the mix). However, I think the magic was lost with departure of Northey.

In essence i personally don't think the culture at the MFC has always been bad (as stated by WA in an earlier post). But whether it was backed up by best practice facilities and skills training etc at the time of the Northey/Balme years (as referenced by WYL) is another matter.

Yep. I also believe it's time for the boys to look each other in the eye just as you say Chappy asked the cats to do in 2007. TIME FOR HONESTY!!

But we need some of our guns back and more experience under the belt amongst the top rookies if we're gonna be able to cover so many outs.

Agree that gut running ability (or willingness to do this type of hard work) is missing once the heat is on. Hopefully honesty (hard work using new facilities and state of art programs etc) and fine tuning the list/players will overcome this. Not holding my breath on any of this but given we've only just got our hands on these state of the art facilities etc i'm willing to give it 2 more pre-seasons at least before i'll be convinced our culture is totally stuffed going forward lol.

But agreed, it's the way we capitulate when the heat is on, and how we hum when all's going sweet that really cuts (chicken's thread below).

Wrong. Newton was the recipient of some great work in the first 20 minutes when MFC dominated the inside 50s (I think it was 11 to 3 on the radio). We were belting North in the midfield who were lazy and unaccountable. Newton did his doing job up forward. But it was from the midfield where the game was won. But the game changed at about the 21 minute mark and North started to haul us in. We folded like a pack of cards. We stopped winning the centre clearances and inside 50s. Goldstein took over. Newton was selected to play forward and pinch hit the ruck. Martin was rested to ensure he could have rucked for the majority of the match. I am not sure we lost much forward because when our midfield got beaten we rarely did move forward. And given you felt he was diong so much what better than to put him where the action was...in the centre. I would have backed Nev Jetta to have more impact at a centre bounce than Dunn.

1. Yes the game changed out about the 23 minute mark, but not for the reasons you're putting forward: It was about that time that Newton was moved into the ruck or as 3rd man up to follow the ball (and assist Martin). WE had the momentum. North were getting frustrated, against the ropes and starting to skitz it (hence the wack across Juice's scone which resulted in a 50 and goal ie., discipline starting to slip due to our momentum/play).

2. ..."I would have backed Jetta to have more impact at centre bounce than Dunn"...: Lol Rhino. Dunn held his own in the ruck the week before when used as a backup (sharing the forward half contests etc). We used Dunny Brush and others as 3rd man up etc. He did ok, using good body position to overcome height issues etc. He was the best of the fill ins in the ruck contests against Crow Eaters. Watch the match again (in full) and you'll see that (in the limited ruck duals he was involved in) he at least nullified his opponent on a number of occasions at stoppages (yes he was occasionaly beaten too), allowing us to contest and win clearances.

Unfortunately he might never contribute again given his performance on Sat. However, i blame that partially on poor management from the Coaching Panel (CP) in terms of not asking a similar role of him given he did a reasonable job the week before in a position/role he would never normally be asked to play. We needed that role (part time fill in for Martin) again against North.

3. Newton into ruck: Isn't and never will be a ruckman or a fill in for one. When moved into the ruck or being used as 3rd man up (with Martin) he gave away a few free kicks and cost us a critical goal right at the end of the 1st quarter (in a ruck dual with Goldstein). Other than giving away free kicks while rucking, he was ineffective once moved and ended up using much of the limited match fitness/energy (AFL level) he would have had in his tank for a pointless role. Better to have conserved what he had and allowed him to keep using it up forward where he's more effective (and was to that point). His confidence was up and the team had an incentive/target to get the pill to him after his good efforts (goals, assists and tackles) in first 23 minutes (approx) of 1st quarter.

4. The decision to move him into the ruck towards the end of the first quarter was (possibly) a set move by the CP. Yes this is a gut feel guess i realise but there had to be some reasoning for it (one would hope!). Eg., Newton had 2 roles on the day and one was to help Martin out and allow him to rest. The CP may (who knows unless one was in the box or involved in the pre-match sessions) have determined this was to occur around the 20 minute mark (approx).

Alternatively they saw something we didn't (eg., Martin starting to tire...a worry given he's supposed to be AFL level) and decided to move him around that time. Also possibly planed pre-match of course, only this option offers more flexibility to the CP on game day. Either way it was a woeful move. We lost momentum and initiative right there. North were all over the shop at that stage and ineffective in almost all positions on the ground. WE had the momentum. Martin was holding his own in terms of creating a contest at least and not being totally smashed, albeit overwhelmed by size/class of Goldstein as the match wore on (post 1st quarter).

At this point the CP needed to have more faith in our engine room continuing to overcome the Goldstein advantage (which they had to that point) and work hard to get hands on ball first and clear etc. We were humming in that first 23 minutes or so. When you're on a good thing, i say stick to it. If Martin was totally spent then maybe...Dunn into the ruck. Newton stays forward. Rest Martin down back if required last 8 - 10 minutes. Keep up the scoreboard pressure if possible and team Structure! Which leads me to the next point...

5. Structure: The game probably was turned and won from the middle (usually is), but the above didn't help our cause and may have played a big part in turning the momentum that we had up to that point, North's way. We took our biggest asset at that point up forward (Newton) and left our forward line undermanned.

Newton may not be the long term answer, but he sure showed something and was way better than anything we've put there this year target/output wise (albeit it was only about 23 minutes....but we'll never know will we!). While he was there, we at least held structure up the spine (Newton, Martin, Chip).

Sure, Martin couldn't play 4 quarters against Goldstein and co. without help/rest but he was never expected to. But, moving Newton into the ruck certainly didn't help with the team's structure either IMO. Dunn wasn't ideal as back up either (obviously), but IMO rolling the Dunny Brush dice (Martin's back up) with 3rd man up chop outs to assist him, was a better alternative to ensure Newton stayed forward to maintain at least 2 parts of the structure while Martin was rested. Surely better than the damage (to us) that Dunn managed elsewhere!

Also, by having a dangerous target you have the possibility of drawing opponents away from their man to assist in spoiling the marking contest, creating other potential target/options up forward eg., Junkyard Bobby & Air Jurrah. By removing Newton as the effective (tall) target up forward (to that point) it meant one less major problem (advantage/asset for us) for the opponent to try and counter (asset/advantage for them).

Anyways. I've already spent enough time venting this view re: Newton being moved on another post at about 3am on Sunday morning when i was half smashed and couldn't sleep. And i'm getting another headache thinking about Saturday's effort/outcome (again). Arghh lol

Cheers

B)

Sorry RN, your point is???

Nuttin. Just that hindsight is a wonderful thing

Red. The answer to your question depends on how many vacancies we're going to have?

Rohan Bail and Colin Garland would be out injured.

Lynden Dunn, either out courtesy of the MRP or dropped?

Austin Wonaeamirri might struggle to keep his place as well.

There's still a question mark over whether Juice has a place in the team.

I think Jordie McKenzie and Matthew Bate are automatic inclusions and if Jared Rivers is fit then he goes in for Colin Garland.

Then the question is how bold and daring the selectors want to be. I would bring Max Gawn into the ruck to help out Stef Martin and stretch the St. Kilda rucks which we can't do if we play Juice as the # 2 ruck. So that means Newton goes out unless a spot up forward can be found for him.

I would also want to have someone with some pace. Michael Evans, anyone?

Personally i wouldnt like to see Juice dropped. 1st game back in some time, is involved directly in the first 3 goals on Sat, laying a few nice tackles also inside 50. Not his fault he was moved all over the shop from around the 20 minute mark of the first quarter and thereafter. Poor decision making from the box or trying to fill too many gaping holes maybe? Agree on the ruck situation though. Quite a dillema for us. Juice not the answer there.

Bate (shouldn't have been dropped for both Jetta/Bennell for Sat in first place), McKenzie i agree with but i think Rivers is yet to show real signs that he's turned around the performances so far this year which are no where near his best and at best...just a pass at AFL level. Can't see too many other senior bodied/experienced obvious alternatives down back however given our outs atm. Is a negating player yes, but no damage the other way and loses out more often than not once the ball hits the turf.

B)

We can still beat North Tomorrow...with the right attitude...This is why juice was retained, as a back up Ruckman.

Come on Juice, turn it on...Do it for yourself, if not for us!

Heyy WYL. How's it goin there today. I promise i didn't underline or bold that bit of your quote.... ~ cough cough

RN this is one of times that it gives me no joy in being correct.

However I think yesterday there were a couple of genuine excuses.

Injuries have cripial us in just 2 weeks and then we lost 2 players who have been among our best

since the start of the season.

With another couple in danger of being suspended it looks very grime for the rest of May.

Right now I am too depressed about the Dees to make much of what will happen next saturday.

Perhaps in a couple of days when I can think straight.

I thought Martin and Newton showed some effort and it was not their fault we lost.

But is bloody depressing at present feels like 2009 all over again

Yep. It is isn't it. And yeh, it does feel a little like 2009 doesn't it. And...2007, 2008, and ummm 1974, 1978, 1981, 1996 & 1997 (apart from the Richmond game towards end of season yay! Birth of the Ooz, and a few others i think).

P.S. Your use of the word Grime for Grim...nice work lol

good question, since whatever I respond I can see it being argued that I'm either used to mediocrity or too new to understand the suffering.

But I'll answer anyway since 1956 . So you can guess my age.

And no I haven't got used to mediocrity since there was a big gap due to personal circumstances and only came back to football recently.

Thanks. Just wondered. Curious as to your age more than what you've seen or been through. And no, before there's any clever comebacks (Super!) i'm not looking to ask Sue out! Cheers mate