binman

All really good points. And accurate too. Nice debate to have - who is the better player of two absolute guns In terms of my thought experiment if i was the coach of the Saints and could take one of those tow players i would choose Tracc every day of the week. I 100% agree Oliver is star. Have always thought so. But as good as he is there are maybe 15 - 20 elite mids in the AFL. And every top 10 of the draft has 4-5 more elite level mids. Just look at last yeas draft - Rowel, Anderson and Green are all likely to be elite mids and there are no doubt 4 or 5 others. Very few players like Tracc however (though i like the look of green). How many players are there with traccs combination of power, strength, talent, skill, goal kicking power but most all ability to impact a game the way he did on Sunday? Martin and Dangerfield would be the only others at them moment. When is the last player we have had like him? Tracc is a difference maker. Ans yes it has taken until this year to really start showing that but that is understandable given his physique. Mids can start impacting in their first season, as Oliver did. A better analogy for Tracc would be a big as it is not until he reaches his full physical power that he is going to reach his full potential.

That's why my jokes are so simple!

No it not. Its nothing like that all. Ill ask again. If you were coach of the Saints, taking into account all the information you know about Oliver and Tracc (eg historic form, current foem, style, potential, impact, your opinion of their relative ceiling etc etc) which of those players would you choose if you could only have one? It is a simple question with a binary answer.

Yep, i thought he had a good game. One turnover i recall (a kick to Oliver?) but kicking was pretty good. Took a couple of really nice intercept marks too.

It is all about recovery isn't it Webber. In normal seasons i'm guessing they spend most of their week recovering and maybe only have the one tough training session (and some players wouldn't even have that). With short breaks they will just miss that big session. And i'm thinking that with the players all in in the hub they have unique opportunity to support (control?) the player's recovery - no late nights bingeing on netflix and corn chips. I was critical of the decision by the AFL to go to 16 minute quarters but credit where it is due - 20% less game time across the board will help a lot with recovery in this period. I think another big factor is that all teams, dees included, are, at least to some degree, playing tempo footy with lots of slow, patient ball movement, holding it for 15 odd seconds after a mark and chipping it around the back line. Look at how few inside 50s GWS have had. They are barely moving it forward. This means the games are generally slower, less ballistic, not as physically taxing and players get a rest on the ground during games. Clubs might look to play more of this style in this block of games, particularly if they get say 3-4 goals lead, to help keep their players fresher (for footy punters might be good period to back unders on the total match point). And we don't get close to using all of our rotations i don't think and some players, like Gawn barely come off. We can use all of our rotations and give players like Gawn more of rest to help manage loads

I'm not so sure about that. In some ways the mum's and kids might enjoy the club and their partners going away for a few days here and there. I don't mean tbat as a joke more that with two footy clubs staying at twin towers it must be packed. And full of young bucks, footy heads full of testosterone. The report will he nice and quiet and they won't be on top of each other. And the players and their partners are used to teams going away every couple of weeks. And some players might like the idea of getting out of maroocydore and playing in front of a big crowd at Adelaide oval. I've got no positives a about playing in Tassie. We better get a game at the alice. Maybe two. Bombers and freo I hope. On the bombers that bye might be a bonus for us. We were playing rubbish then. Every chance they would have won that game. I like our chances better now.

Why is there talk about an injury for AVB - did he cop one?

True. But who would you pick right now?

Actually I would love to see oliver doing some stints forward Rjay. He is a pretty good mark and his fierceness at the ball, strength and general footy smarts would work well inside 50 in bursts. Perhaps swapping sometimes with tracc. The best mids kick goals. Always have done. He is yet to kick one this year. In his 86 games has snagged 26 goals, which i guess is not too bad - comparable to cripps actually (oliver is 0.3 and Cripps is 0.5 per game). But we are talking about a player who is on track to be one of the best mids of the current era. So i want to see more goals. As point of comparison Dangerfield has an average of 1.1 goals per game and at the same age had an average of 1.6 goals per game in 20 games he played in the 2013 season.. Interestingly in 2018, when we were flying oli kicked nearly half of his career total with 12 goals.

Bump. In my opinion Tracc is now a better player than Oliver. And I rate Oliver super highly so tbat is no small statement. Had a much underrated season last year. Addressed his inconsistency. Has addressed his fitness and got his psychology spot on. In 16 minute quarters is now averaging mid 20s for possessions, despite playing forward 30% of the time. Elite. And contested possessions are off the chart. Goal average has gone from 0.9 a game (with 70% of his time forward) to 1.1. In 16 minute quarters this season. Has always been able to do things only a very small handful of players can do.. Is now doing it week in week out. Martin is absolutely an apt comparison and tracc is plsying much better this year. Tracc is a lock for AA. Oliver has leveled off a bit, but still been very good and was terrific last two games. Great to see him kicking more and getting metres gained. If Oliver keeps that form up he is a good chance of a second AA selection, which would put him in a very small group of players who achieved that before their 25th birthday. But try a thought experiment. Imagine you are the coach of the Saints. A team on the rise. And you have the choice of tracc or Oliver to come to your club. Who do you select?

Yep. And lots of families don't want others to know their business.

I hadn't thought about this but I think i sort of agree (is that equivocal enough?). He does seem to be a bit stationary and often defaults to trying to simply out body his direct opponent. Maybe form but to me he has looked too big this year and perhaps even carrying an injury. He is certainly not as mobile and on his bike as he was in 2018. Perhaps i'm being a bit harsh but sometimes i have thought a few times this year that his body language has not been not great if the ball is not kicked to the perfect spot or if not getting a free he deserves. That said i was reflecting on how much more space our forwards had yesterday and how often there were free players inside 50 (eg kozzie, bennell, harmes, tracc). But reckon that sapce is a function of how well me moved the ball. The hawks had a defensive zone set up but when we moved the ball fast from defence it looked like there were holes every where inside our 50. Frost must have been thinking he was back at the dees when he first came to our club. I can recall thinking back in say 2015 when were trying to implement a zone defence that there were holes everywhere and we gave opposition teams acres of space. I guess the question with Tmac is, at the moment is he a help or a hindrance in that quick ball movement from defence to our inside 50. The connection Goody loves to reference. With Jackson's i don't think there is much question he helped. His mobilty and speed creates space and helps him get up and down the ground and he supports connection.

Agree. His ability to kick well with his left foot is a much underappreciated skill and actually quite important one for the dees. Think of how few players in our team are reliable on their non preferred foot. There might beosme other but i can only think of Melksham, Bennell (i assume, just coz he is sublime) Jones (sort off) and Viney (joking - but ironically his best kick inside 50 this year was the one to trac against the suns on his right. At least until his beauty to fritter last game). Being two sided means more options for where he is played and helps with moving the ball forward as he can't be trapped on one side, like say hibbo. A perfect example was the kick to to Fritter that set up the Tracc wonder kick to Weed in the square. Brayshaw won the ball hard on the boundary and if he had to jinck to his right rather than kick on his left he may have been tackled, found it harder to cut the ball back to fritter, or they might have had enough time to get across to Fritter and/or tracc cover them.

Ta j6. Just made that same point about Brayshaw on the what has happened to him thread. It appears the answer is he playing well and pleasing his coach and team mates

Just listened to Maxy on rsn and agrees with you. Sort of. He went further and said he has been one of our best this year and implied not getting the credit he deserves. Said by playing his role allows viney and tracc to get off the chain. I agree with you on his game against the hawks. He was involved in a couple of really important scoring chains and whilst he did butcher it a bit as you said he also had some damaging kicks. A bit like Oscar I reckon his lack of speed impacts on how people see his game as it can make it appear he lacks intensity and effort. Not a chance in haddes he gets dropped.

Gawny on rsn now for 25 mins

Modern footy is a million miles away from the one on one game it was in the 80s and not the 90s. It will never go back there. Deal I just looked at the vision of every involvement for Harmes and could not for the life of me work out who he played on. The best guess was Blake Hardwick. So i looked at his vision and Harmes was nowhere near him for almost all his involvements. So i looked at Smith's vision! And bugger if if could tell who was on him. The player most regularly in screen was Langdon so perhaps they didn't run directly anyone on him? Or at least not a tag. Either way he was useless. Perhaps you need the down the ground vision to really track who is on who. I'll check Jetts and Lockart at some point but i'm going to watch tracc's involvements now. Juts coz

Top post. Agree with the above points. Fitness and attitude are the key.

What. A. Kick.

Fair nuff No argument from me about his talent. One of the most talented players I've seen play

Alannis says hi:

If you asked Slobbo the answer would be one that clearly benefits the bombers

Some key stats that go a long way to explaining our dominance (from this article with a bunch of other stats on the MFC website): Inside 50’s: Melbourne: 54 | Hawthorn: 33 Inside 50’s from centre bounces: Melbourne: 12 | Hawthorn: 6 Marks inside 50: Melbourne: 15 | Hawthorn: 5

I cant do those fancy giphs. Can someone help a fella out with one of that kick. That kick was heaven on a stick.

I 100% agree with the points in this post. I reckon our game plan is very close to Richmonds. But of course not exactly the same, particularly our greater emphasis on winning contested ball. But like the tigers we are forward half team, as you say when on we run in waves and use those players either side of the ball carrier, look to keep the ball moving forward at all costs when attacking (eg with knock ons etc - melk taking it a bit too far i reckon - just grab the footy for god's sake) and inside 50 pressure and tackling are fundamental KPIs (which is why Hannan and Kozi are such important ins) I also agree with an earlier point you about the tiger's plan changing bit to be more considered and less frenetic. We are also trying to make that change. Clubs have to these days to counter the flood and control the tempo and momentum of the game. This is a tactical shift responsible for driving scores down - five years ago, generally the only time teams slowed it down and chipped it around was near the end of quarters or to defend lead at the end of the game. now they do it at various stages though match and for various reasons. This tactic, which is even more effective with 16 minute quarters, is regularly employed in soccer and basketball no doubt other team sports. Control the temp and momentum and control the game. Deny the Opposition the ball and they can't score. A really good example of us doing this well was in the minutes after the hawks kicked a couple of quick goals early in the third quarter (leading one of the peanut commentators to exclaim after the second of those goals something like - 'hawks now only 3 goals down and dees fans are nervous!'). Rather than trying to counter attack - as would have in 2017 and 2018 - we balanced up and got control of the tempo of the game. Meaning they didn't bang on 3-4 quick goals as has been our Achilles heel under Goody. So when Weed scored our first for the quarter the game was effectively over. In some ways we also now share some tactical similarities to the pies - as do the tigers as we now share their emphasis on: all players doing the gut running needed in modern footy, applying the required pressure on that last kick inside 50 forcing opposition sides to go long down the line by denying them the switch and kick to the corridor having a back six that works super well as a unit and is really hard to score against (it is worth noting as bad as were last year and in our losses this year teams have still struggled to score against us and we were rarely flogged)