binman

And I'd add that cox played his career flying to the east coast every second week - which is hard core for any player, but particularly a bloke of his size. Point c is probably a fair comment - but I reckon the defensive tactics to disrupt the effectiveness and synergy of the opposition ruck and midfield combo have advanced significantly since cox played.

Fair points. I was just thinking that players who control the drop zone are perhaps less likely to have a marking attempt impacted by their opponents' efforts to spoil and are less susceptible to getting bumped just as they are about to mark the footy. By the by, the best catches in cricket have soft hands too.

Now that he is left, i feel strangely more comfortable knocking Jackson. But now he is freo player i can say JACKSON IS MILES OFF BEING A GENUINE FORWARD. There are a number of reason why, for example he has no idea about leading patters it would appear. But his biggest issue is he doesn't use his body like a real forward the way Tmac and Fritter do. Doesn't seem able to protect the drop zone and often jumps straight up like the basketballer he is - which might be a factor in why he double grabs so often. He'll no doubt improve his forward craft - he's a kid still after all (and a supremely talented one at that) - but he is well behind the eight ball given those skills are not instinctive. By way of comparison, when i first saw Fritter play for Casey, the thing that jumped out straight away was how well he used his body and how natural a forward he was. Those skills immediately translated to the AFL level.

Well you were the artist. Any exaggerations?

The clip needed one more tmac mark. Then Jim stenman would really come into play.

Love that perfectly timed and weighted little bump (no chance of a free) tmac does to give himself position (and put Grundy out of position). That's forward craft baby.

It's funny you should say that tiers. When thinking about the best rucks i have seen, each player had one or two unique strengths or skills - madden being a top example (in addition to being a goal scorer, he was a beautiful run and jump mark). Cox was probably the most well rounded of the rucks i listed (which is no doubt why he was so highly rated) - which makes the comparison numbers even more impactful. Goal kicking is probably the one skill where he is below average - and even that has improved significantly over the last few years (though went backwards last season i guess).

I agree. Hard to say who the best ruck is over say the last 45 odd years. For me Dempsey was just about the best I'd seen. Len Thompson was a gun - super mobile - and Teasdale was dominant the year he won the Brownlow. Simon Madden and Salmon were both fantastic. Peter Moore wasn't too far off that level Stynes wasn't one of the great pure rucks, but his incredible resilience and fitness puts him in the conversation. In the modern era I have Ryder and Goldstein right up there I was always guilty of underrating cox, perhaps because I didn't watch many Eagles games. But he is undoubtedly one of the best rucks of the modern era. As is sandilands, who I probably also underrated. But there is no doubt in my mind. Max is, hands down, the best ruckman I have ever seen play (I never saw polly farmer play). Just look at the comparison with cox, who was probably considered the best ruck of his era. Of the nine categories cox only bests maxy in three (and only one category decisively) - 1.2 more disposals per game, 0.8 more marks per game and 0.2 more goals per game. Maxy has cox covered in six categories. Of those six he has cox covered decisively in four of them. The category that really jumps out is hit outs to advantage, which is surely the most important one when assessing a ruckman. He averages almost twice as many as hit outs to advantage than cox. Incredible. As DEE FENCE noted, maxy gets extra points for his incredible leadership over the last few season, particularly once made captain. Not only is he is the best ruck I have seen, he is the best skipper I have seen at the dees.

And like us in 2021, Geelong had a dream run with injury. A lot has changed in footy, but one constant is that injury is the biggest determinant of success.

I suspect Kozzie might end up being better able to wear the bumps than AD. That said, i agree. i hope he ends up being used like Cyril Riol- - 80% small forward 20% blitzing in the middle

It's like a cold sore. Hard to get rid off On this thread topic, as i noted in the Jackosn is leaving thread, after being anguished about Gerard Healy's defection to the Swans i vowed not to get too caught up in players leaving. If they leave they leave. I couldn't be any more ambivalent now about the young ruck who went to Freo last season. I have been pretty successful in not getting upset about players leaving over the subsequent years, but a couple of players have got under my guard. The one that immediately comes to mind is the Wiz. Totally understood why went home and didn't begrudge him one little bit for doing so, but I just loved watching him play so, so much that it was a real wrench when he left. In my top 10 favorite dees players of all time. I fear i'd feel much the same if Kozzie chose to leave. I just love watching him play footy and hope i get to do so week i week out for the rest of his career.

You make a good point dazzler about the differences between the cats and dees' respective high performance programs. I'd argue that the model is basically the same, but each club has their own variation. The resilience philosophy of Burgess (and Griffiths?) being one such variation. I don't have the expertise to assess that element of our model, which is why I don't really have a view on it. And I have no clue as to how much not using more players was a call by goody or was related to the philosophy employed by the high performance team. There is also undoubtedly amy number of internal factors mixed up in that call. For example, perhaps part of their calculation on selecting JVR was weighing up how likely it was his selection would help us win versus the impact selection might have on hid development as a player (eg making his debut in 2023, after another full preseason would be better for his development than getting smashed in a losing finals campaign). That said, there was plenty of evidence last season in the should have rested players column. And I share your frustration of not seeing more of Chandler and I thought it was really curious bowey spent so much time in the magoos. And I would have loved them to pull the trigger on jvr- one because I can't wait to see him play AFL footy for us, and two because it was clear as day bb was struggling with his body and we needed another forward who could at least bring the ball to ground (melksham's early success as a defensive forward was probably a factor in not selecting jvr - which was unfortunate because he was poor in the finals).

I wonder what sort of coach held make in terms of his people and man management skills. From a distance, I'm not convinced about his people skills ans EI. But I don't know him, so those doubts msy well be unfounded.

What position do you see Howes plainy DS?

Watts had beautiful kicking technique - one of the best. The key, as you suggest, is how simple it was. Few moving parts to break down. The other thing i loved about his technique is that he only took a few steps and when he kicked it he was perfectly balanced. In this sense his field kicking technique was almost the same as his goal kicking technique. Which weirdly is actually not that common.

I don't agree dazzler (with JCB's post). A DL specific new year's resolution i have is avoiding scenarios where I fall into the trap of back-and-forth arguments that end up in me just repeating previously articulated opinions. At the risk of breaking that resolution only 11 days into the year, i agree that some of the regular posters in the loading thread ended up looking silly. But i suspect we differ as to who they may be. Personally, i find it silly that some people would see what happened to us in the back half of the year as some sort of repudiation of the concept of 'loading' and the fact that we followed a clear program involving nearly two months mid-season of heavy training loads with the goal of being cherry ripe come finals (to be clear i'm not suggesting you hold this view). The fact that we clearly struggled running out games is evidence the program didn't get the desired result, not evidence that it wasn't in place. There are a million reasons why it may not have worked. It's a science - but not an exact one, and there are literally hundreds of variables that could negatively impact the effectiveness of the fitness program (eg new staff, injuries, illness, scheduling, new players, equipment issues, motivation, impact of the weird finish to 2021, resourcing, staff changes, relationship between high performance team and the medical staff, relationship between the high-performance team and coach etc etc). And fans are really only guessing what variables might have negatively impacted the program in 2022 The analogy i use is baking a cake. Every step of the process impacts the end result. The cake goes into the oven (preseason and midseason) but until it comes out (first ten rounds, finals), even if it looks great in the oven, you don't know how it tastes till the whole process is completed. To be honest, i find it bemusing that some posters, without any expertise in sports science (or intimate knowledge of the variables negatively impacting on the program) can have strong views about the efficacy of Griffiths program last year and/or the strategies he employed. Bemusing, because over the 'loading' journey i have, not without justification on occasion, sometimes had my views dismissed because i don't have expertise in sports science and have relied on observation and piecing together info that is out there (including some great stuff on DL) to make my case. To make my position crystal clear, i have little doubt that we will in fact follow much the same high-performance program as last year - and the two years under Burgess. Of course, there will be tweaks of course because there are always things that can be improved, but that's all. We will be putting in the base now, will be close to optimal readiness for the first 10 rounds or so. We will run out games better than our opponents (and as an aside have 8 plus wins under our belt). We will then go through a two-month period of sub optimal performance whilst we build the base for the finals. I'll be really happy if we go 50 50 during this stretch of 7-8 games. We will then build towards to optimal fitness and readiness as we approach the finals. If the program has worked, i think we are the team with the greatest probability of winning the flag. We have the best list, coach and method and are the best team in the AFL. By some margin. Like last season, it will be evident by round 20 or so if the mid-season loading phase has done the trick - and there are no guarantees it will (because of the aforementioned variables). If we are not running out games, then it hasn't worked, and we are stuffed. Every other serious flag contender will follow this same model, just as the Cats did last year. Why? Because they are not winning a flag without doing so. All that said, I'm not keen on another season of back and forth on loading - particularly in completely unrelated threads. Regular posters will have their views and the back-and-forth palaver is boring for everyone. I'm not going to change my view on this matter, and i suspect many others aren't either, so really there isn't any point flogging a dead horse. What we can all agree on is we were simply not fit enough at the business end of the 2021 season and the heat is on Griffith's and his team (as it is for every high-performance team every season). If we don't hit the 2023 finals at a comparable level of readiness to 2021, we are not winning a flag this year. Fingers crossed.

What an amazing coincidence. Was typing much the same thing at the same time!

Mutiple good points sb. The best rucks of the 70s - Teasdale, Round, Len Thompson and my personal favourite Gary Dempsey, all dropped back a kick behind play 'into the hole' in defence heaps of time in each match. Par for the course. And got smashed from pillar to post every single game. Brutal. Whilst plenty of ruckman since the 70s have copped lots of treatment, head knocks and big hits, none copped the consistent shellacking the players mentioned above copped week in week put. With one exception. The treatment maxy has copped in the last two seasons, and in particular in 2022, has been shameful -and he doesn't even drop back as often as Dempsey et al. So many hits to the head. So may huge body checks and being cannoned into. I reckon it goes unnoticed by non dees fans because Max hardly ever retaliates or remonstrates. It infuriates me. I really hope the club has a quite word in the off season to the AFL and umpires. Maxy deserves more protection. So, I'm with you sb. The last thing I want us maxy to sit in the leading lanes down back and provide opposition forwards and resting rucks the perfect opportunity to do more damage. In some ways Jackson leaving might be a blessing in disguise because Grundy can give him a proper 50 50 chop out from the get go and allow maxy to play forward

You could well be right, but my sense was we encouraged him to 'explore his options'. Which is code for moving a player on. I concede i might be imagining that, but if we were keen to keep him we would have done so.

Great post TK, many thanks. You def get votes for the inaugural binman's track watcher of the year award for going to the effort of timing the 2k trials. Kudos. The drills you highlight are really interesting. Both are more evidence that Goody is well and truly open to learning from other teams. The focus on hitting short targets under pressure is great to see because this was a really big issue for us last season. There was a lot of focus on inside 50 entries, but i reckon a bigger issue for us last year was missing short targets in our defensive half of the ground when under intense pressure (and sometime under zero pressure - Steve May says hi). Those missed short kicks don't get the attention that missed kick inside 50 get but have a bigger impact in my opinion (because the latter might cost us an immediate shot at goal, whereas the former might result in an opposition goal AND might cost us a goal because a potential scoring chain has broken down. And to boot, a turnover in our defensive half cedes territory, whereas with a missed kick inside 50 we still have a decent chance of trapping it in our forward half). As i have banged on about over the years, we have way too many players with poor kicking skills. I suspect this is the key reason we moved Hunty on. Pressure (and fatigue for that matter) exacerbate poor technique, so its great to see they are specifically focusing on this skill. The Swans have a number of players who are above average kicks and don't cede too many easy turnovers with missed short kicks in defence. Same goes for the pies. Nick Daicos is close to the best proponent of that critical short kick in the AFL (Daniel probably has him covered - just - it's crazy to think Daicos is so young given how important h was for the pies last season - he is sure to find it harder next year as teams will put a lot of work into him, you'd think). And i reckon the cats also have us well and truly covered for kicking skills. So, three of our key rivals last season had a distinct advantage over us in terms of missing fewer short kicks under pressure. That said, we really missed a fit and firing Salem last year - an issue that was made worse by Bowey dropping form and then being dropped. If you take Bowey and Salem out of our back half, who else in that unit could be relied on to hit 75% plus percent of short targets? The other interesting drill is the one where players 'lead far and wide, especially back into the open spaces of the forward line towards the goal square'. This perfectly describes the method used by the cats last season - one of only a handful of key differences between our method and the one they pivoted to last season (which was ours basically). The method was super effective for the Cats, in large part because it really suited the players they have. It allowed Cameron to play high up the ground, basically as a half forward flanker, and use his beautiful long left foot kick to advantage. And if he isn't delivering it inside 50, Cameron has the athleticism to run towards goal from outside 50 and get separation, the skill to mark the ball as he runs with the flight of it, and of course the skill to finish. Creating space inside 50 also increases the likelihood the Cats can engineer a Hawkins one on one - which is smart as he is the best one on one mark in the AFL in my opinion. That space also really helped Tyson Stengle as he was able to use his ball winning skills, one on one ability and pace to great effect. Fritter, and perhaps Schache (coincidentally both left footers like Cameron), have a similar athletic profile and skill set to Cameron, so i could see both playing a similar role. In Kozzie, we have a player who can play the Stengle role. I'm not sure we have a Hawkins equivalent (who does?). I would say, of our forwards, Fritter is our best one on one mark, but obviously he doesn't have Hawkins' sheer strength. Perhaps not for the next couple of seasons, but ultimately i think JVR will be our Hawkins. Watching JVR live, you can see he is a natural forward like Hawkins in that his first instinct is to get optimal body position against his opponent to control the drop zone. And he looks bloody strong now, so in 2 or 3 seasons he will be a beast.

Well, they do play for the dees.

Ok 58er, lets move on. As you say, the free from desire palaver was not an issue. But bevos unhinged approach to media prior to the season commencing , right up to that ridiculous outburst against Tom Morris, was a distraction the dogs could have done without.

Ahh, thanks. Got it. Typo on my behalf. It was meant to read: 'The other things the dogs have in their favor is the pressure of losing in 2021 bigly won't be such a mill stone around their neck.' That's to say, getting smashed in the 2021 GF was a psychological issue they had to overcome - and arguably, like so many teams who lose a GF, they struggled to do so. The Swans face the same issue next season. The points i made about posting etiquette remain valid. For example, 58er might have clarified what i actually meant (given it is pretty obviously a typo), before resorting to a sledge

58er, i'm not quite sure what your deal is, but you are incredibly argumentative and more than little rude and condescending in many of your posts - this post being one such example ("If you believe anything else you have no idea of the psyche of modern day sport!" - really?). The approach you take is why i don't bother replying to any of your posts (many of which have some reasonable points). But i'll make an exception in this case. Please explain to me why you have seemingly attributed to me a belief that 'the desire song had anything to do with the Dogs finishing eighth last year'? I'm genuinely confused

Or a sticker saying - MFC - winning flags every year since 2021 Or perhaps one that says - Question: is it possible for a club to win three flags in 14 months? Answer: bang, bang, bang - yes if the club is the MFC!