Slartibartfast

Oh for heavens sake's. I started in my first line of the OP saying I supported what Neeld has done and it was much better than Bailey. I've said that a number of times. I wouldn't change any list management decision he's made. I've already praised Neeld and you say you can't see me coming on DL and saying it's proof of Neeld's sound decision making. Sorry, I've already done it! And now is NOT the time to judge whether we've made the right moves, the future will tell us that. That we largely agree is to say our judgement is the same, not that it's good. I rate Gysberts, Neeld doesn't, the future will tell. I'd back Neeld by the way but I'll stay true to what I believe. And I'm not setting up a criteria to bag Neeld, I'm setting up a criteria to evaluate his performance. I'll praise Neeld if I think he does something well and criticise if I think he does something bad and I'll apply the same principle to the whole club. I reckon you're better than falling for this agenda stuff. Dandy if you want me to answer some questions send me a PM. I'm not going to bore others or ruin this thread by derailing it with political agendas.

I want more. I want to win a flag and to do that we will need very good people in all positions particularly seeing we don't have the resources of many. Are you surprised that three of the richest clubs, Adelaide, Collingwood and WC always seem to be developing quickly or in finals with fewer early picks than us? Neeld needs to be able to identify and develop the talent that was both left to him and he has selected. If he can't do that he fails an important coaching duty. I don't care if you can't see this. I think others probably can.

It's a simplistic view that will suit many. It avoids the harder question of trying to evaluate performance of key individuals in the club. Winning football games among other things is the ability to identify and nurture talent. You don't get the pick of the list of draftees each year you only get your hands on a very small sample. You need to make the very most of the talent you lay your hands on. I don't worry about how the discards go for their own sake but I am interested in their performance in as much as it allows an evaluation of Neeld as an identifier and developer of talent. We are an under resourced club, we have to make every post a winner. Our recruiting department is not as well resourced as other clubs and the only way we will win is by having better intellectual property. A coach is judged on many things. His ability to lead and inspire, his gameplan, his tactical nous, his management of players, team selection and other things. One of the most important characteristics is his ability to get the best out of the talent at his disposal. I understand it's Christmas, we've got a whole new bunch of presents under the tree and we hold great hopes for what's in them. It's fantastic there is such support for the club after such a shocking year. But that doesn't mean we should stop looking at ways to evaluate performance. If in three years we finish 4th and Gysberts is a recognized gun mid and Morton and Bennell are good players in a winning GF team Neeld's decisions will be in question. I don't think this will happen but the point I'm trying to make, amongst others, is we are in a rare position to judge seeing so many other clubs see a position for what we have discarded.

The list he is building is as much a product of the players he lets go as the ones he brings in. 5 years is far too long. For me it starts in next year and we need to see very significant improvements.

Yes, I sort of agree, but how do you judge him on list management and player judgement then? I don't know where to find the information but 7 players off our list who we didn't want are rated high enough by other clubs to be given another go or sort after. That must be a record. I think that is interesting. Clubs don't take players on unless they think they can play a role and be AFL players. It will be interesting to see.

And what if she's right? What if it was the AFL opinion then but our threat to take the AFL to court has forced a differing position. What does it matter if it's wrong? You wouldn't read many journo's who said something wrong. If the club being investigated was Carlton and not Melbourne would you have felt the same way? The only thing that I'm interested in is what the AFL now does and she's the only one that will give me an insight.

I think any finishing position would need to be "draw adjusted". Our's couldn't be easier.

But she is the one reporting the facts and that is what I read her for. I couldn't give a stuff about the other stuff. If you want to get upset at a journo's view that up to you. If it was Carlton being investigated I bet you'd applaud her calling them "pathetic and disgusting..." Toughen up Dandy.

I see where you are coming from but the FD job is to identify talent and develop it. If other clubs can routinely do this with our rejects I'd think that's a worry. FWIW I can't see that happening but it will be interesting to observe.

Each to their own.

I can see that every effort is being made to change things. I'm just not expecting big changes next year on the back of our recruiting because the potential is all youth based. One isn't even playing until next year. Last year we weren't even competitive. We've got to make up that deficit and more to start winning games.

Seems to me you're more worried about what Wilson thinks than the AFL. I'm not and the silence isn't giving me any comfort.

Rubbish. We know about the investigative tactics, we know the meeting that is at the centre of the investigation, we know what Connolly was supposed to have said, we know that the main players have been interviewed multiple times, we know the general nature of the MFC position and if I cared to go back and read her articles again there would be much more. We also know her opinion. I'm not worried about that because I'm not spooked by the journalist. If our club can't survive one negative journalist we really are stuffed. I've found myself wondering what going on since her last series of articles and nobody can provide anything. I'm looking forward to her next article, not because of the slant she'll put on it but because of the information it may contain.

Yes I do and I think you were right. It also didn't help that the players we thought would develop in that era never did - Sylvia, McLean, Dunn, Bate, Bell,,,,,,,,,, It doesn't matter if one or two of those players have good careers at other clubs either, it will just be interesting. If more than 2 do then you'd have to question Neeld's judgement. I don't count Rivers in that.

Some time ago I did the figures and they had a very young list with a small (by AFL standards) number of games. I think they probably feel they have enough talented youth on their list and want to bolster it with some experience. It's pretty much what we did with Byrnes, Rodan, Petersen, Jones and to a lesser degree Terlich.Anything but finals for them in 2013 would be unacceptable.

It's not Wilson's fault we are where we are, it's ours. She is reporting on it and I want to know what's going on. She's the only one who is shedding any light on it. She is also only reporting what she knows, not what the AFL knows which is a point I think many miss and really the only thing that matters. If Wilson doesn't report it doesn't mean it's not being investigated and if Wilson does report it doesn't mean the AFL agree with her position. I'm not spooked by Wilson at all. She's just a journalist. She clearly doesn't like us but so what. I'm much more worried about what the AFL think. It's important to try and separate the wheat from the chaff with Caro and it's why I like her articles.

I'm on record of being in total support of just about all list management decisions this year and whilst I disagree with some I'm please that Neeld has made these decisions and is backing his judgement. It's something I think didn't happen enough under Bailey. Next year will be fascinating because we will be able to judge Neeld's judgement as we will have so many of our past players playing for other clubs. To my knowledge the following are in action: Morton WC Bennell WC Gysberts NM Martin Bris Moloney Bris Petterd Rich Rivers Geel It must almost be a record for a club to have so many players playing at other clubs in the following year. My only major regret in that lot is Gysberts and to a lesser degree Rivers, but I'm glad he has a chance to play meaningful footy after 6 years of crud.

Let's hope he doesn't play like a headless chook! (GOT reference)

One of the reasons I think Caro is a must read is at least she has contacts and finds things out. We'd have a much better idea of where this was going if she was reporting it. I still think we are very exposed here and I'm comfortable that the investigation is taking as long as it is. It's allowed us to participate in the drafting and trading this year which was critical and now any draft penalties will not hurt so much. If the trade off for that ability to participate is a long investigation I'll live with it. Also the longer it goes the more it becomes a non issue. That helps. Unlike many here I'm not worried about Caro's reporting and want to here from here so I know what's going on. For the record I loved Grant Thomas too and am sorry he's gone.

I reckon he's an inside mid who will use his hands more than his feet. When I think of McKenzie I think of Daniel Cross. He's got wonderfully clean hands too and I'd like to see him as a ball finding mid rather than a tagger just to see what happened. He'll be promoted to the leadership group this year and will be one of the first picked each week.

You're very scared of the Club being questioned. Toughen up.

What is it you're so scared of? I'd hate to be in the trenches with you.

I haven't been to training this year but if there is a session before Christmas with the new blokes I might go for a look. I hear what you say about training but I could find the same comment last year and for most years before. Training is like dancing with your sister - it's not until you measure up against the opposition you know how you're going. The fact that (for example) Rodan looks great is because he's got no genuine quality opposition. Would he look great against Pendles, Swan, Sidebottom and Beams? He wouldn't be anywhere near their list and they are who we are competing with. Bar Dawes I don't see what we've really gained from last year. Byrne, Rodan and Petersen are depth players - Byrne at a powerhouse, Rodan at a terrible club and Petersen at a middle club. They cost us nothing (we didn't want Gysberts so the cost really was nil) so I'm happy that we have some mature players who can play a bit and protect the kids but expecting them to have a significant impact against good clubs is stretching it a bit. The young kids are just that and I think the possible areas of meaningful improvement are in the existing 2 to 4 year players who have a lot of upside. I also like that Neeld has a list on his page now and he is leaving no stone unturned. We won't be left wondering. I am a fan of Viney but there are many in the industry who weren't, I don't know what they think now. I think his rating may have increased significantly later in the year but I'm guessing. I've seen him play about 2 or 3 games and only one live so I'm in no position to judge, particularly since I don't watch any under age footy other than the Nationals on TV and have no benchmark. His attitude is uncompromising and he will demand a lot of those that play with him. I'm hopeful but I don't expect a lot in his first year. But having said that his first year is more like a second year given he has been groomed for R1 for 2 years so he will be very well prepared. I hope you're optimism is well placed Ben, I'm sick of the crud we've put up with for 6 years but until our stars have 80 games we won't be where I want to be. I want to be optimistic but experience tell me that his time of year is fools gold. Which teams are we going to go past next year? With our midfield it's hard to find many.

I don't think there is anything you've said that disagrees anything I've said. We just don't know if or when they will come good and while you are being the optimist I'm remembering Scully/Trengove, McLean/Sylvia, Morton/Grimes. All the guys who were going to fix our midfield and none have - yet. I'm in the camp now that says "I'll get excited when they start playing good AFL footy". I doesn't mean I won't enjoy the journey but I'll keep a lid on it. I think hoping for Sylvia is fraught with danger and if he plays well good on him but he's more unreliable than Travis and really hasn't had a good year yet. Trengove IMO was clearly effected by being made captain and I think it was a stupid decision but the balance is that making Grimes captain was very good. And finally I think Watts has the ability to be the star/elite midfielder we crave and I just hope he gets the chance. One AFL coach agrees with me but believe it or not I've held that view for about a year, documented elsewhere. Oh, and I'm also very happy with with Kent but more with just the "type". He looks like a genuine mid and we haven't recruited nearly enough of these over the journey. I like the feedback you have and I like the highlights but I'll wait until he's played well before I get excited. I like Taggert too. Agree with all you've said Nutbean, lets hope Ben's optimism comes through.

Yes it can turn around quickly but sometimes it doesn't. In the Trengove thread you've used exactly the opposite argument to suggest Trengove is not abnormal. Viney and Toumpas seem to be our best chances of "star" mids and they are 3 years away. Many of the players you've quoted from other clubs have had terrific players around them, we don't. Let's hope we can pull a couple out of the bag but you and I are in agreement that it could be another 3 years. Given we've been crap for 6 that's a long wait.I'd have thought 10 wins is quite possible given that we have 2 games against GWS, GCS, BL, WB and Freo.. That's 8 very winnable games if we are any good and not exceptional particularly seeing we won 8.5 games in each of 2010 and 2011.. Anything less would be disappointing.