Slartibartfast

Firstly I'm not a moderator. Secondly I think he is stupid if he suggests BH wants the club to fail. I'm just telling the truth as so many have to me in the last few weeks.

No, I'm not a moderator.

I agree that we should use all that we can to our advantage to present our case but that does not extend to suggesting conspiracy theories about one club getting favourable treatment because of the make up of the AFL Commission. I've been here (DL) for a long time Sue and it's my opinion that too many here want a free kick. We are where we are because of the decisions we've made as a Club. And we are in a very bad spot. We've had 6 years of terrible under performance and are only the second club to stuff up the bottoming out process. We, like Richmond, have bottomed out twice. But reading much here you'd think we have been victimized. We haven't, we have just made a series of terrible decisions and they have come from the top down. It doesn't mean some good hasn't happened in that time but in our core business, which is winning games of football, we are a joke. We need to take responsibility for that because until we do we won't go anywhere. FWIW I think Neeld is doing that.

You are so stupid it's mindboggling.

I've questioned your intellect for sometime now and being a person of generous disposition I've given you the benefit of the doubt. But this takes the cake and places you in the very bottom of the normal distribution. Ben is a bloke who goes to every training session, he posts positive stuff all the time, he defends those in the club against criticism that he supports, he goes to every game and he shows a knowledge of the game you'll never have. And just because he holds a view that doesn't fit with the victim mentality that so many on this board have you say he wants the club to go down. I say I don't think Schwab is as good as we can do and that I like Caro because she provides information and I'm treated the same way without anyone knowing what I do or have done for the club. Any opinion on here that doesn't go with the victim mentality, the free handout and the unfairly treated groupthink and suddenly you're an agenda driven poster. I want this club to act in a way on and off the field that demands the respect of the football world. The sad fact of the matter is we have been riddled with drama's and disasters, some of our making and some we couldn't control, which means we are the joke of the footy world. Reality says we are being investigated for tanking and all people here want to do is say 'but it's not fair, what about Carlton". Well, welcome to the real world. Let's just deal with where we are and move forward and work to getting some respect in this competition.

Very good!! I doubt many caught the humour.

"And members".

This raises the issue of loyalty versus honesty. I'm presuming that if people did "roll over" then the MFC did make list management decisions to significantly reduce the chances of winning in order to gain a priority pick. Firstly I'd not criticise anyone who chose honesty in this situation if it was a genuine choice and not a decision based on vindictiveness. Secondly the investigation is not a public investigation but one by an organization about the integrity of it's employees and members. I don't think we have any rights to know who said what and IMO it would be quite wrong for that information to be available.

Great to hear from you freddy, I hope all is well with you and let's hope for a vastly improved 2013. Cheers mate

Maybe so and that would be a good result. I know that Caro is seen as a vitriolic sinister character here and any word in her favour places the "supporter" in the same bracket but I can deal with Demonland thinking I'm evil. The fact is I said "Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good" Of course she will be wrong on occasions, we'll wait and see here. Many of the attacks on her revolve around non core issues, errors of garnish and the fact she has clearly editorialized her position. But in the main she is the one that has disclosed the core matters that have informed us of what's happening and in her absence we have little further to go on. I don't like what is being said but I want to hear it and she tells me. Unlike many I'm not worried about Caro's editorial, I'm much more interested in what the AFL think and whilst I don't like the stance Caro's has taken it's not unique - many an MFC supporter was against tanking (or to avoid a silly argument) "list management" at the time for a whole raft of reasons. I like the fact that in the main she reports things that other reporters don't. I like the provision of information. I trust myself to judge her editorial position and make my own decision and FWIW I think Caro is out of step with the majority of non MFC footy supporters who think we are being victimized and did the best thing for the club. I hold that position too. I'm also astounded people find me threatening because I like reading her articles. So be it.

Thanks, anything for the ABC boys. Not many laughs there. Tell me WYL, how many of your posts have been made while you've been at work?

Yes, that's true and it's after 17,000+ posts. Mind boggling isn't it.

Well I know I'm not as smart as most of you but I learned a bit from Jay's article (in as much as you can put any faith in it). Firstly I learned that there is now a meeting supposedly between Bailey and Schwab at Schwab's house which related to "list management". Secondly the AFL is believed to be leaning towards punishing individuals rather than financial or draft penalties. Without intending to open old debates it's why I like Caro. Whilst she has given us a very hard time she also provides information and in general her information is good because of the quality of her contacts. That she clearly hates our club and Schwab in particular isn't going to influence the AFL. The "market" is very rarely wrong, and if fairly reliable sources like Deegirl and others have heard that Schwab, Connolly and Bailey are in trouble I'd tend to believe it. Interestingly this is what Caro said about 2 months before most. I don't know when she is going to return but I'm backing a fairly detailed article containing information (in which I'm interested) and editorial comment which I'm not going to like. Oh, and DC, are we to ban any journo who puts into print anything relating to tanking and our club? How the hell will we know what's going on?

Caro sends a very happy new year H. Better than I could have hoped really..............

So nobody knows when she'll be back? I do miss her! B)

Where's Caro? At least we'd know what was going on!! I miss her. Does anyone know if she's on holidays or is she gone forever. HNY everyone.....

Interesting, I've never given you a thought.

You're very defensive. I've mentioned Schwab's name once in this and it wasn't to criticize but to say I've heard his name is one the AFL is interested in. I agree with you entirely that it was Schwab (and Connolly's) call as to whether Bailey should continue to coach, that is not at issue. It was also their position to manage that process in the best possible way for the MFC which sadly they didn't but to be fair that probably wasn't their fault - but if we go there the word "agenda" will populate this forum and so I'll try and avoid that. I'm glad you're able to divorce Schwab from the tanking issue and lay the blame on a couple of ex employees. Unfortunately to do so is probably more damning than saying he knew what was going on. Anyway I look to causation and wonder why, you're obviously happier not doing that. Why don't we leave it there.

If you read the rest of the thread, particularly the comment on our (in)ability to exit people, I think you should be able to join the dots

McLean's comments alone would have gone nowhere if Bailey hadn't said what he said. But we can differ on that.

Fev said what McLean said and that would have had no traction if Bailey hadn't said something. It all started with Bailey and McLean gave it oxygen. And the Bailey situation was so avoidable. I agree our behaviour was no different to other clubs but the implementation was clearly different. Too many people knew and we were amateur hour in the way we did it. I don't hold to the "victim mentality" of media conspiracies, to me that's just a very soft option and just a way of ignoring errors we've made. The media and the AFL have "picked" on us because we were silly enough to leave a much stronger trail than other clubs and perhaps we haven't managed those relationships as well as we should.

Well that's one theory but I don't subscribe to it. I think we left a trail of evidence and managed the process so badly the AFL could hardly ignore it. Very poor management and inappropriate involvement by certain parties from the WC game on in 2011 have put us in this position. Blind Freddie could see that.

I understand that everyone, including me, is livid that MFC, who followed virtually AFL practice, is the only club on the chopping block about tanking. Unfortunately that isn't a defence and if we are singled out, albeit unfairly, we still have to show we acted in accordance with AFL rules. Coupled with that is nobody really knows what evidence the AFL have and how cut and dried it is. I think Macca is right on the money. I think that Bailey's response is because the AFL have supplied to the relevant parties their evidence and it will implicate certain people. I have also heard that Chris Connolly, Cameron Schwab and Dean Bailey are in the forefront of the AFL's mind at present. Everyone obviously hopes for the best possible outcome but it's worrying to think that both the MFC and DB have seen fit to employ legal representation. That does not indicate a "no case to answer" finding from the AFL. Whilst the usual suspect have jumped on mjt for voicing a view, admittedly in a less than conciliatory manner, the issue that I think warrants consideration is "why" are we the only one's being investigated and in this respect the responsibility must rest with the most senior people in our club. I think I'm correct in saying that Libba said that everyone knew we weren't trying to win "but nobody ever said anything". That would seem to be the very opposite to the way we did it and that is why one must question the wisdom of our leaders. We all have our favourites and I'm no different but that doesn't mean a critical eye can't be cast over what's happened. We mucked up very very badly here and whilst we did no different to many others we did it in a way that opened us to investigation. That that should happen beggars belief.

I've heard nothing but outstanding reports on Viney in the last little while. His influence will go well beyond his own play.

I agree with just about everything you've said, I never believed we'd win a flag under Daniher but thought he achieved much with little including a GF appearance., In hindsight we just didn't have the resources and I didn't realize the gulf until we moved to AAMI. I don't know if you ever saw the Junction Oval facilities but they we prehistoric as was our footy department budget. The "jokes" of rats in the ceiling was right. Craig Cameron was doing the job of two current senior FD people and he had a shoe string budget which didn't allow him the information many others had. Not only that but after the 1997 ND he had three picks in the top ten in his tenure and two of those in one of the worst drafts you'd ever see. Not exactly access to the stars we craved and the information we needed. In relation to the "eerie" silence are you really surprised? I was working at the club for Bailey's entire tenure and and was privy to some sensitive information. Whilst you might have trouble with my silence I had no issue about not criticising the Club on a public forum. I don't understand why you have such trouble with this, I hope others don't.