bing181

Simply not true, as the players themselves (Viney, now Kent) have publicly acknowledged.

Not just Melbourne.

You can never set the bar too low around here.

And all we had to train in was a shoebox in the middle of the road.

It's no-one's "fault". It's just the way it is. It's a bit like saying "who's fault is it that we're not at the top of the ladder?" For the rest ... players past it, injured or suspended: Lumumba, Salem, Frost, Dunn, Garland, Terlich, Melksham. What's left? A Casey-level back-line, which can just about hold their own As Long As Those Further Up The Field Do Their Job - which as Jack Viney pointed out on Sunday, they didn't: "You start winning and everyone gets away from their roles and tries to get a kick and a touch. It breaks down the whole system."

I think to some extent they are ... but off-field unfortunately. We were 5 points down in the last quarter, the game was there to be won, and we needed calmer, more experienced heads, to make sure it was, Jack Viney can only do so much off his own bat. (though thought Vince was trying). No accident to see Riewoldt step up when the game was on the line. Just don't think you can underestimate the kind of experience that the players listed above bring to a team. Let's not forget that St Kilda were in the finals consistently from 2004 - 2011, including successive grand finals in 2009 - 2010. That's a LOT of big game experience to draw on, even if it's only a handful of players. I know people here talk about inside grunt and outside run and zone defence and coaches and game plans etc. etc., but it's this lack of real A-grade leaders (which isn't necessarily the same as A-grade players) that is our biggest Archilles heel at the moment. Hopefully it'll come over the next couple of years.

We have a defence "featuring" effectively 4 first year kids (O Mac, White, Magner, Hunt), and it's the coach's fault? Seriously? Some of the posts/threads here at the moment are beyond belief.

Didn't look like we lacked leg speed the week before, or in the first quarter, or when we put 4 goals into them in the third ...

Not so much with not having a Plan B, it's about having a Plan A and everyone sticking to it. "You start winning and everyone gets away from their roles and tries to get a kick and a touch. It breaks down the whole system." Jack Viney

Exactly. The point is that we don't have any of those kinds of players, the nearest we get is Dawes and Lumumba. Roos was just referring to the experience of players like Riewoldt, Montana, Dempster, Gilbert etc. who not only have been around for a while, but played under a very good coach and were playing in finals etc.

Presume Frost will come back in - perhaps for O'Mac? Depends on match ups, perhaps Garland. I know some here are saying he was poor at Casey, maybe that's the case (didn't see), but his numbers look decent. Then we get into the rest - hard to know. If Stretch just needed a freshen up he could get a run, but if they want him to work on aspects of his game, he'll have to come back through Casey. There were 4 or 5 who seemed to do OK there, from ANB through to Oliver, Newton etc., but Oliver apart they've all been found wanting at AFL level, and Oliver only plays restricted game time, so not sure there either. Plenty of candidates if we wanted to drop a few, and perhaps Grimes has played his last Demons game, which would be disappointing. I think there'll be a few changes, but suspect that from now on, they're going to be made with one eye on 2017, so hard to guess. I'd go with White, Grimes, Kennedy out, then add Frost plus two of Spencer/Stretch/ANB/Oliver.

Hard to know what to make of some of those numbers. Bugg 15 possessions isn't great, but he topped the tackles with 11. Trengove and Oliver good all-round games it seems. ANB a lot of possessions, but wonder what happened to them.

Agree with the second part, but not really the first. Players like Harmes, Matt Jones, Kennedy, Hunt consistently manage to get the ball to go somewhere else than where they'd intended. Even N Jones and Viney aren't exempt.

Especially as the big knock on both of them is the lack of "hurt" factor in their disposal. Agree with an earlier poster, we miss Salem's disposal off half-back. But feel like we need half a dozen players with Salem's disposal.

We had too many players who were "off" today. As Roos said (though it's obvious!) we don't have a margin for error, nor do we have a Dangerfield who's going to pop up with 4 goals and turn the game. The rest ... sure, maybe, but for the most part, deck chairs.

We are improving as a team, but improvement isn't always consistent or linear. Today was a step back, but at least the List Management department will be pleased - the decisions they have to make at the end of the year just got that much easier.

Or even just if you don't have the right mindset ... after that, nothing else really matters, including the planning.

Agree with that ... but then hard to see how it can then be prefaced by "we lost in the coaching". From what I can see, we lost it through the above, or to put it another way, not sure what the coaches could do when the above (and more) is going on. (BTW, you missed Nate Jones from the above. Either sick or carrying something, his worst game since ... well, I'm not sure when. And boy, does it show!)

Poor disposal under pressure. Just so many kicks off half-back or into our forward line ended up with a St Kilda player. Even our better players like Viney and Jones are just as likely to turn it over. We also still have too many players who are fringe-22, who if they're a little bit off are not up to scratch: Harmes, Vandenberg, Grimes, Hunt. The better team won today. More pressure, cooler heads.

The game right there. Add in Hunt as well ... love his attack, but defending still a work in progress.

Forgot how good Brayshaw was ... my god, just so smart around the ball.

Oliver still can't get through full games, he's only doing around 60% game time. For his first season, Oliver has done phenomenally well and is a hugely exciting prospect. But he's still only a kid, and you'd have to expect that at some point the load will start to catch up on him. I also feel that at least for the moment, Gus (at his best) is a better player than Clarrie (at his best). Only to be expected, he's a year further down the track. In the longer term, who knows, though hopefully both to turn out to be gems.

Yes. Plus what was supposed to be an intense training session on the weekend to makeup for the bye.

Remember seeing the Angels around this time at the Manley Vale in Sydney. Like nothing I'd ever seen, incredible.

Clearance machine? The last game Oliver played (against Sydney), he had one clearance - and 17 possessions. In fact, for 60% game time, it wasn't bad, but there's only so long we can carry (young) players who aren't yet ready to run out a full game. Sure, he's young, he'll learn, blah blah, but that's why he's back at Casey. Patience. It's a building year.