DeeSpencer

55 minutes ago, binman said:

You've well and truly misunderstood me jnr. 

To be clear my point was Goody deserves a lot more credit for his tactical innovations than he gets. Full stop. 

As an example, as i said, whilst he didn't invent the all team defensive zone or the use of the zone off, third man intercepting defender (Hardwick deserves credit here) he has absolutely perfected the model. 

As i noted, he began working on it way back in 2016. The model is now the gold standard defensive system in the AFL.

I don't agree with all of this. It was Luke Beveridge as the Hawks backline coach in 2012-2014 who really bought the zone defending in as a style. Josh Gibson was a huge part of it.

But Goody saw it fairly early and one of the signature games was round 23 2015 where I'm convinced Roosy gave him the reigns against GWS at Docklands in front of less than 9000 people. Mitch White debut and are backline just changed it up after 2 years of Roos ball.

2016 when Goody had the reigns and it was all out attacking zone. The Dogs won the flag with it that year. Then 19/20 Chaplin really started tinkering with less all out zone and a more sophisticated mixture of covering off whilst still intercepting up the ground at times.

Bevo now can't seem to find the right balance and mix, but he also doesn't have the cattle down back. Alex Keath was a very good player who then had his body break down. Ryan Gardner injured a lot. Cordy fell off. They've draft a young player for the future in Busslinger, they've had little choice but to take Darcy, JUH, Croft. In the same way that we haven't fixed out forward line they haven't fixed their key defenders, that's the reality of how hard it is to assemble elite talls in their prime and keep them healthy and well supported with depth.

Goody, who led the league in scoring in 2018, can't find the right mix up forward when we don't have capable talls fit and available. Can Goody suddenly not coach attack? Or is it the forwards are often ordinary and we prioritised midfield bulls and have struggled to recruit the balance without losing the strength.

Tactics are important, but there's too many good coaches across the league looking for holes and prodding at weaknesses. Fitness, health, talent acquisition and development of young players, all of which the head coach has some responsibility for are all vital.

32 minutes ago, sue said:

Doesn't matter that McGrath initiated things.  If what he did was worthy of punishment, then he should get punished too.  But launching a player up in the air and then slinging a leg at him is not excused by having been provoked.  If he Sicily gets off then it's open slather on doing similarly every time the play is stopped.

The kick will be a fine or a week, I'm not really fussed.

Dumping McGrath was well worth it. You run at someone looking for trouble and it should be open slather. Players agitating a defender after kicking a goal and as blatantly as McGrath did don't deserve any protection, it should be an immediate free kick against them, failing that, a body slam.

9 minutes ago, sue said:

Really?  I would have thought attacking a player when the game is stopped, coming in low and flipping him right up in the air and off his feet must be deemed an offense worse than a free kick.  Not to mention the possibility of the player landing on his head and injuring his neck.  IMO a kick even if it misses is unforgivable.

McGrath went at Sicily. Sicily sitting him on his backside should be rewarded for efficient self defence. The kick was a little bit naughty, but he should get off.

3 hours ago, monoccular said:

We will have to agree to differ then. 
Petty cannot have gained one ounce of confidence and would be going into an important game (yes, they are all important) bewildered.  Let’s hope he has a good game next weekend at VFL (unless of course there is another bloody bye) and gets right to take to Adelaide which he can look around and see why he doesn’t want to live there. 

Round 1 of the vfl season proper on Sunday and with some luck we can play the sub and carry over emergency (likely Woey and Tholstrup) both at Casey.

Which means along with Laurie with K Brown and AMW/Sestan rotating they’ll have a good supply of mids so even up against a strong Box Hill team (they’re always strong) Petty will have a chance to get on the end of a few. 

4 hours ago, whatwhat say what said:

because they got paid for it

the afl season starting in the first week of march is just absurd

I’m more than aware they didn’t do it for free but they were adding an extra round and travel for 16 teams, the afl snuck it through cheaply. They should’ve held out for more than they got 

Just now, Roost it far said:

The players won’t want it. I’m all for an a 20 team comp where everyone plays everyone once, the top 9 play a modified finals with 2 extra weeks and there’s a bye before the GF. 

The players were all over the idea of gather round. I didn’t hear any pushback or bargaining from them.

If they go to 24 home and away games the aflpa should just fold.

Geez this place bounces wildly back and forth on Sparrow. I said this after the 2021 grand final and I'll say it again now. He's a great role player who has limitations with his disposal but absolutely busts his backside and always cracks in hard.

He had 0 CBAs today so naturally his disposals are down. 6 score involvements is solid work though.

And his effort is all over the tracker sheet. 2nd in sprint distance. 2nd in average speed. 4th in total sprints. 2nd in average speed in attack. 

Stop with this madness that he'd get dropped for a kid.

3 hours ago, binman said:

It's interesting that the vibe seems to be Lever had an average game.

I thought he was terrific.

He had 8 score involvements- only maxy, Billings and tracc had more.

He also had 17 disposals and was part of a group effort that shut down lobb, naughton and weightman. 

He was a key to how well we transitioned from the back half.

Yep I thought he was very strong, whilst he had a couple of Lever moments it's really good to see him working on his attacking game. That goes for all our key backs, I just hope May finds his kicking and decision making radar some time soon!

But for Lever especially as the chief interceptor to be a 2 way player would provide so much for our team that's been missing the last couple of years.

7 hours ago, adonski said:

A moment needs to be taken, to try and comprehend playing Laurie and Spargo ahead of Billings last week

I've got no issues with it. For one Billings needs frequent reminders that defense and contest are part of the game, didn't see a lot of that from him against the Swans or in the preseason. He's a potential offensive weapon but no player should be above the teams defensive needs and effort.

But the biggest reason was match ups. Spargo was in for Pickett, a mistake throwing Charlie out but Billings would never have provided that pressure role. Then they wanted ANB as the 3rd winger because the Swans have genuine weapons on the wing in Gulden and Campbell. Players you can't give space, same with Lizard, Florent etc at half back. The Dogs wingers being who knows and who cares were much better match ups.

It was a mistake but Billings 2 touches in 38% game time at half forward against the Swans suggests it meant very little.

9 minutes ago, dazzledavey36 said:

Of course they do it best... they're 30k bigger supporter base then us and as expected, louder then us. We cannot compete and her expectations of thinking that we can do so in this current climate is ridiculous from her end. It take years to build this kind of supporter base.

Both you and Kate are also missing the point in that Collingwood game style and ours is stark different to why they probably get loud as well during games.

Collingwood play a high offensive game style that is exciting to watch where as we play such a defensive and in football terms, 'boring' style this is hard to cheer loudly especially when you're kicking 2.8 in a half of footy as we did last week. We had numerous of games that were on display last year and some were certainly hard to watch.

She needs to temper her expectations and appreciate that supporters are being as loud as they can be.

And seriously, out of all clubs she was to heap praise on then I couldn't think of a worst organisation going around especially as they are also the same club that forced a demon legend to retirement.  

How did the Collingwood attacking style go in 2 of 3 finals last year? They fell across the line playin defensive footy clinging to leads for most of those games. Against GWS they broke every rule in the book for 10 straight minutes scrumming the ball around.

How did their accuracy go last week? If social media is anything to go by their fans wouldn't mind if they won games by 1-0 for the next 100 years.

Sure, we need to find a more attacking brand. We got close to it in a number of games last year and then rolled out a forward line of nothing and midfield down on zip for the finals.

I don't know where you sit but in the MCC members and the northern stand there's a whole lot of nervous disappointed fans and not a whole lot of noise and that's the bulk of our crowd.

The next step is the club doing something proactive to increase engagement but I don't mind at all that the fans are challenged as well. At least they're half way there by recognising the fans are exactly fired up.

Even if we drop away and miss finals this year it's still the best collection of talent we've had in 50 years. The team isn't complete and has a bad attacking game right now but we have to appreciate the physicality, defensive effort and flashes of attack the guys are putting out there. 

I don't get why people are offended by this.

But at the same time simply asking is unlikely to achieve anything.

Step 1 is playing with more dare, dash and confidence and hoping the crowd notice that shift and get behind it. But there's more to be done to fire up the fans so they feed in positive energy too.

They took away Howies/Hogans Hangers because someone concussed themselves. Soft if you ask me but fair enough I guess. Replaced it with an impossible kick to a paint tin.

They've experimented with a former AFLW player screeching at us. Thankfully that's done.

As much as we shouldn't need them the 'get loud' signals on the tv screens seem to work. Why not put a camera on the head of the cheer squad after goals and have the crowd do 'Mel-bourne clap clap clap'.

In the NFL the SeaHawks raise a flag before every home game. In the NBA the Philly 76ers ring a bell.

Richmond honour a home coming hero for every home game, it's a great tradition.

There's a lot more that can be done to encourage positivity in our fans, cut the nervous tension and get a better connection between the fans and players.

12 minutes ago, Longsufferingnomore said:

But it's a bit hard when there are so many more of them than us.

I'll never forget the games against Geelong and Hawthorn a couple of years ago. The noise was unbelievable.

When Kate made the comments at the Season Launch there was an audible gasp until we all knew what she was actually getting at. At one nanno second I thought I had to lose my teeth and give up my day job.🤣

 

Whilst we will always be outnumbered and less vocal than Coll/Carl types of teams I don’t think we’ve matched the same energy at games since 2018.

That year was special with the joy of crucial wins and finals for the first time in forever.

We were robbed of seeing a flag in 2021. And increasingly over the last 2 years our crowds have lacked that joy and intensity as much as noise.

We skipped the fun afterglow of a flag and as the team has struggled to score in many games you can feel the tension in the crowd. 

51 minutes ago, whatwhat say what said:

this whole 'our fans don't cheer loudly enough' narrative needs to stop

It would stop if our crowds weren’t so quiet and depressing, full of anxiety, negative energy or lack of interest. 

I’m a pessimist when it comes to our chances most of the time but come game day I turn up to barrack. Most Melbourne supporters don’t.

If BBB is an option have we also considered Neitz? Anyone checked on Allen Jakovich? How about Fred Fanning, what’s he up to?

Fullarton or if desperately needed I’ll accept Tom McDonald. But not BBB just weeks from knee surgery with little to no preseason. 

18 hours ago, Gawndy the Great said:

Just out in the media (yes huge caveats on reliability) that JUH is linked with the Hawks. Mentions Collingwood, Essendon and a few others also in the mix. Why oh why are we not in there? It is very early days, but surely we have been having some sort of conversation with his management for a while now. Why are we always late to the party or never invited at all? Given our obvious issues, our massive warchest, our list demographic we are the best place for him... It is infuriating. 

You really think because it’s not in the media the Melbourne list management team have just decided to have no interest in perhaps the best young key forward in the game? When he kicks 6 on Tomlinson this weekend they might be asking who that guy is?

Good clubs don’t leak trade plans in March. 

They trained Rivers, Bowey, Howes, McVee all bursting from the back all summer.

Personally I think Riv is excellent at breaking through traffic but in terms of designated kickers Bowser was the one I was most excited to see. Howes now takes that role I hope (in preference to Salo). 

A lot of our players don’t seem convinced to give the quick handball though which is needed to get the footy to attacking flankers. Sydney had no qualms - especially as they are never pinged holding the ball - firing handballs in the backline. 

May is paralysed if he can’t turn on his left and kick. Tomlinson needs an hour and a traffic management crew to change direction. Gawn will consider it before deciding to hold play up and bomb it 60 to the opposition ruck. 

And that’s without the next piece of the puzzle which is midfielders and half  forwards who provide options that reward attacking backline play.

We dumped it to Langdon and Hunter all year last year because they were always open (deep and sideways, but open). Midfield Salem is so vital because he can work in pockets of space to attract the footy. ANB is always on his bike. Tracc and Clarry demand the pill. But we need more and with more cohesion. 

On 11/03/2024 at 22:52, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

Another Laurie apologist…go watch his practice match against Carlton. Made several basic skill errors in a pratice game in front of 3,000 ppl. He is lost on the big stage and executes horribly under pressure. He is not AFL standard. Lacks height and size and has little physically to make up for it, unlike a Caleb Daniel. He won’t make it. He deserves nothing. The fact he was subbed so early shows that the coaching staff knew he was a complete liability 

And undersized and not physical or quick half forward isn’t a great package but we don’t know why he was subbed.

There’s a chance it was more that he ran his backside off. He was first in speed in attack and 3rd in speed of defence and when he came off our pressure only dropped.

He has to cut down on errors but there has to be an understanding that it’s an inexperienced player in a team with no team chemistry and few targets in the trickiest role to play.

Every half forward makes errors. Every Melbourne half forward makes multiple errors when there’s no forwards to draw the ball, create space and make kicks look good. 

Im fine with Laurie getting dropped but I wouldn’t write him off entirely just yet.

2 hours ago, Kick_It_To_Pickett said:

If that’s the only changes you are suggesting, then we are no chance this weekend, leaves Spargo, Chandler and/or Laurie still in the side. If that’s the case, we are cooked 

If you think the small forwards that we've won a stack of games with over the last 3 years are a reason for us to be cooked you aren't being fair dinkum.

19 hours ago, JJR said:

Billings has literally played one half of football for us, give the guy a proper chance.

First game of his AFL career was it?

FWIW I thought we defended Sydney’s switching and rebound game for 3 quarters then ran out of puff once our pressure dropped away 

With Bowey, McVee, Howes, May, Tomlinson we have a number of a quality kicks in our back half. Even without Bowser.

One very fit winger and one very fast winger too. Salo folding lback from the midfield.

There’s no reason why we shouldn’t switch, switch back and try all sorts of methods to retain possession, alter tempo and change the attack.

Plan A should always be a quick rebound out, but there’s no reason why from things like kick outs on deep intercepts after a brisk passage of play that we shouldn’t move the ball around.

2 minutes ago, george_on_the_outer said:

The other thing needed to switch effectively is space.  That doesn’t exist on the SCG.  While there were kicks for both sides which were “not down the line” the switch becomes ineffective, since the opposition don’t have to run as far to fill the defensive space, unlike the MCG.

The GWS comparison is very valid, since it was played on a bigger ground, and the game becomes more open. 

The SCG is 8m wider than Giants stadium and only 5m narrower than the MCG.

It’s condensed end to end but absolutely a ground where you can and should switch.

14 minutes ago, ElDiablo14 said:

Hopefully we have Gus salary out of our cap space, that would be useful.

We can hope we can a bid for one of the King brothers or someone of that calibre.

I'd dial expectations back significantly. The Kings aren't going anywhere. No doubt we'll throw our hat in the ring like 16 other clubs for JUH. But I doubt he makes a move across town for a regressing side. 

But we don't need superstars, if we had a pair of Brody Mihocek's to straighten us up, or even just one at CHF to compliment JVR we'd see so much less confusion and panic by the mids and flankers and suddenly a lot of our ball movement issues would be sorted. We'd still have to convert but I think the struggles with finishing are mostly down to pressure building on guys who don't know when there next clean look inside 50 is coming.

30 minutes ago, rjay said:

We used to run with 2 KPF’s & a resting ruck. I would bring in BBB if he’s right to go & Fullerton who is a mobile ruck.

The resting ruck most often being LJ who could move like a flanker at ground level and one of the key forwards being T Mc who couldn't pressure in tight but would always cover off as well as lead hard up the ground.

I think barring the sudden emergence of a genuinely mobile key forward we've got the right balance with just 2 talls alongside Fritsch and Petracca forward quite a bit. At least until we see if Fullarton really is super mobile. I think he's mobile for a second ruck rather than Jacko level freakish.

Plus I just can't see any possibility where BBB coming off yet another injury is right after 1 practice match. Last year he looked shot half way through the second quarter in every game he played, let's give him at least a week, most likely a month at Casey so he can stay healthy and build touch.

And it's not like we aren't making changes. Fullarton, PIckett, a full game of Salem in the midfield and most importantly something that might resemble proper football weather rather than a swamp could all work wonders before we reach for the BBB emergency siren.

3 hours ago, leave it to deever said:

But did they find a fwd to replace hime with? The answer is no.

Clearly they've thought that Bbb, Tmac and Schache will probably work.

Even if they haven't for a couple of years now.

It's not like them out injured or out of form again is a surprise to any of us here.

Carlton showed us last night how important it is to have a couple of power  talls up fwd.

It's baffling we kept Schache as a 3rd ruck / 4th or 5th key forward rather than just switching to literally anyone else. Not because it guarantees the anyone else will be better but there's no risk in trying. Especially when Schache came in just to replace Weid who we finally moved on.

That said, Fullarton replaced Grundy, let's see how he goes.

They made a decision half a season of Melk is worth the half a season of no Melk.

They made a decision keeping BBB in the hope of a miracle recovery for a few games is better than paying him not to play.

If we are fair dinkum we should enter next year with at least 3 and possibly up to 6 new talls (BBB, Schache, Melk, J Smith, T Mc, Tomlinson). 7 if they move Petty a year before his contract is up.

Port Adelaide found themselves in a similar situation last year with key defenders and rucks. They managed to add 4 new talls last offseason.