DeeSpencer

In really good midfields you don't want to have too many players who are in the main clearance players as you need versatility and should get a range of midfielders who can win the ball from the trenches. I'm thinking the likes of Viney, Tyson, Michie, Jones and Trengove. But we are a long way from a gun midfield and Roos' game plan will always start with a stoppage focus. So after he builds his fitness back from injury I won't be surprised at all if Riley becomes a steady player in the team. Then it will depend on how much improvement he has. Just like Tyson and Michie he's had so little AFL experience it's hard to make definitive statements either way.

I understand the logic but my greatest concern is that one of our best players and a guy who can be elite at his position is waiting for the club to turn around. Why is there not belief already that things have changed? Where is his confidence that through on field deeds and leadership he can change things? Now part of that is also as a full back his main job is to limit the oppositions best forward and he's not the ball winning midfielder who can get 10 clearances and 30 plus touches and really break open a contest. And the other concern is that we've been through this all before when Neeld replaced Bailey. But compare it to Travis Boak who in Port's darkest hour had faith in his team mates and faith in the club. If Frawley truly isn't sure that things will change then doesn't that say a lot about the psyche of the players. If a gun like Frawley isn't sure how things are going to go how are lesser players meant to be confident to perform?

Barring injury Hogan, Cross, Tyson and Vince play round 1. Michie if he doesn't play round 1 (I'm pretty sure he will) then he'll play in the first couple of months. Aidan Riley will play if he can get back to his SANFL form where he was a clearance machine and racked up decent numbers of touches but first he has to get fit. But I'm pretty confident at some stage he'll play. Salem, Hunt, Barry and you can add in Harmes as well will depend on form of the team as much as their form. If the team is relatively healthy putting in consistently then it will probably take outstanding performances in the VFL. Kennedy-Harris is a bit different because he can play a specialist position that doesn't have any solid depth and because he could make a good sub he remains better than 50/50 I'd say to get a shot, but we haven't even seen him play against men yet. Georgiou also depends on injuries to tall and medium defenders. Multiple injuries at those positions and he will almost have to be picked. But he should be aiming to exert pressure on selectors with his VFL form anyway. Judging by his body shape and running/munting effort I'd say young Max King is a long way off but for a 200+cm ruck/forward that's not a concern. So I'm tipping at least 6 new faces with a lot featuring in multiple games to go with 7 from last year (Dawes, Kent, Toumpas, Viney, Terlich, Matt Jones, Clisby)

But that's oversimplifying how far back we were with Neeld. Bailey had failed in 4 years to fix the culture left of the Daniher years of coasting senior players. Moloney, Davey, Green all played on their own terms. Promising talent from the Bailey years had left due to unpredictable circumstances in Wona and Jurrah. Scully had fled and to save his own face to not look like he was leaving for money he allowed the notion of an unprofessional culture to be put out there. Our recruiting in the Bailey years was abysmal. I've got no qualms with Trengove, Watts and Scully but we were unlucky none of those top 2 picks were ready to go self made men. But we compounded that with what surely is recognised as overdrafting with Blease, Strauss, Gysberts, Tapscott and Cook. It will be interesting to see if Roos can rescue any of those guys. On top of that Neeld brought in Clark and Dawes and they had some back luck with injury. You can make the case for going for midfielders as a more important need first but the lift Clark provided in 2012 was tremendous to the whole club and could Neeld predict that Jones was the only mature decent midfielder on our list? The tragic thing about Bailey's tenure was that when it finished Neeld came in and talked about rebuilding the rebuild and none of us battered an eyelid. We were all too aware that Bailey's team was build on a house of cards and needed to be retooled. Bailey had horrible facilities and conflicting advise from above. Neeld had horrible recruiting and no supervision from a decent footy manager. Both are recipes for disaster. I favour Bailey because he was able to develop young players and produce some form of results but I'm not impressed by either of them.

Wow the highs and lows of this thread. From his initial anger at the medical system which you could kind of tell was his frustration but then his positive attitude through chemo and the follow up. As if tragedy can be any worse but I do wish we got to hear from him when things went south again. I hope people were there for him. Sadly in the nearly 4 and a half years since his first post Melbourne haven't become a good side and now reading about Watts, Scully and Jurrah depresses us all. But it sure gets put in to perspective. Also sad is that Dean Bailey late last year obviously found himself in a very similar situation to Twosheds.

Lack of conditioning and lack of both upper and lower body strength. Stronger legs will give him more power through the hips to stay up right and strong arms will let him push off with just his arms instead of leaning in. Plus more fitness will let him feel stronger and not be sucking in for air. Either way I'm not too concerned. Ruck technique takes years to learn and comes with the body needed. As long as he shows a desire for the contests his height will make him hard to beat.

whoa them some crazy words.Frawley an athlete type footballer? That's rubbish. He's not just an athlete because he's fast and might not be an amazing kick. Star full backs at the demons, what like Nicholson, Shanahan, Lamb etc. More rubbish. If Frawley leaves we are looking at a kid, trade (unlikely to find quality) or Pedersen at full back. That doesn't sound too good to me.

That's all up to Chip. If Hawthorn are top 4 and offer him big money then he might leave even with 8 wins, although given the ages of Sewell, Mitchell and Hodge that might be foolish. Or if Gold Coast finish around 8th and offer the same then he might go as well. The realities are the alternatives are just as important as what we do. Franklin showed that. He would've had a huge decision between Hawthorn and GWS until Sydney offered an alternative that gave him everything he wanted.

Did Trenners get back into it for the intraclub? Plus any reports on Vince or Michie getting the ball. Tyson didn't impress me too much in the circle work drill on Wednesday. He almost seemed bored with it. So glad he got involved in the match simulation. Sounds like the plan is to be pretty fresh for the Richmond game but that's fine with me. It'll be early Feb, way too early to get carried away.

Even if we get a top 5 draft pick I don't see how that gets us a better player. We couldn't land anyone with pick 2 this year, I'm not sure how we'd land a player better than an elite key defender in the prime of his career? The best we could probably do would be going back to GWS and getting one of their young highly drafted talls to plug in defense plus a swap of picks again.

Yep this. AFL trained. Appointed to CFO soon after PJ joined, I get the feeling PJ would be testing him out now to ensure he's right to go when PJ feels the need to hand over. I think the more important thing is to make sure Josh Mahoney is doing a good job as the head of football and to see where and when we place Roos within the organisation once he finishes his 2-3 years of senior coaching.

So "until he knows the direction of the club" is the convenient excuse to get him through to mid year until he can then postpone until the end of the year. Funny thing is I don't think it's about money as we can surely offer as much as any other club. If it's about success he should realise that leaving doesn't guarantee him anything. Look at Moloney, McLean or Rivers. They haven't won a flag and Rivers was awful in the finals last year. If we can't convince Frawley that things are improving then I don't see how we will ever convince enough players to play good footy. They should already feel like things have improved. Of course they will be jaded about results but come round 1 they have to run out there feeling like they will crush the saints. Also whenever journo's quote 8 coaches in 8 years it makes me sick because it's such a cheap way to make something sound shocking.

Midfielders: Michie and Tyson great value if they can get in the team and average around 20 touches they will rise in value by heaps. Both Grimes and Vince listed in low 400k with an average score around 80 but both can score a lot more than that. Toumpas and Kent worth thinking about if you expect break out seasons. Defenders: Again Grimes. Watts and Strauss if you are brave Forwards: Clark especially and Dawes if you are braver. Hogan should rise his value by a fair bit but I think he'll only average 60 so you'll have to trade him out once he's gone up in value Rucks: I'd stay away from our guys

Good question DD. I'm none the wiser. First nab challenge game on Feb 14 you'd think either Wednesday or Friday next week would be ideal for some practice match type activities. Given it's still so long from our first nab challenge until round 1 I wouldn't expect a full scale practice match but more an invitation to watch some match simulation.

Hawthorn and Gold Coast, possibly even GWS. The saints have just invested in 2 KPD in Bruce and Delaney and whilst they aren't as good as Frawley it's hard to justify after 1 year of getting them to go after a KPD just because his uncle played for the club. The vice captaincy probably wont keep Frawley but some wins will go a long way. Even near the bottom a club on the rise is still a very positive thing.

If there was a snub at all then it was Dawes I guess. But the 6 man leadership group is reasonable. Right now I don't think anyone else can be too upset. Viney should work on his game before stepping up to leadership. Same for Tommy McDonald I think. And Vince and Cross are expected to be leaders with our without a title.

That makes sense, but my point was more they aren't spending main trainings trying to work on highly specific tasks or on physical and unpredictable full match practice style drills. There's a mix of physical stuff usually at the start of training and some game style ball movement drills but mainly it looks like practical training when it's nearly 2 months until the real action. It's still patient Roos not all out stuff.

Running joke Redleg. After Rog posts one of tasmans reports (always credited) then its customary for someone to thank him for the report! Unless you've taken the joke to the next level Redleg!

If Jones was made captain before he was even an established AFL player yet alone a good one and before he stepped up his leadership he wouldn't have been a good captain and probably not the player he is now. But now I have faith in him as I do Grimes.

Rocked on down at about 10:20 and stayed until 11:30 when the guys were still going hard. Roos in control of absolutely everything. Matt Rendell watching on in his Collingwood gear. Absent (bearing in mind the time I got there): Riley, Barry, Nicholson, Jamar, Terlich and Garland. Edit: Plus, Byrnes, King, Harmes, Jetta. Rehab: Dawes, Gawn, Fitzy, Hogan and Viney. Rehab group doing some run throughs but also some ball work including taking some hangers with one of the staff holding the pads. Viney doing mainly running. Modified program: Spencer, McKenzie, Frawley pulled out of one drill only to back in later. Same for Salem and JKH whilst Hunt stayed in but finished early. At one stage Spencer and Clark ran laps before Clark finished (after the other rehab boys were done) and Spencer went back in the main stuff. Kent got some work on his left hip I believe from the physio before calling it a day. Drills. I didn't take notes so I'm going off the top of my head but the main message today was on spread and spacing. 3 group handball drill. A group in the goal square, 1 on either flank. Handball the ball around a defender and move the ball up to the next group. Very much working on getting players in to open space. Roos' message "don't go early". A ball movement lanework drill with a kick at half back to a leading player leading down the line of the centre square who then handballs off to a player who kicks it to a leading forward. All about sharp kicks and following up your kick at speed. Had this going both ways so players pretty much kept moving at all times. Watts, Strauss, Salem stood out for continuing to hit targets. Michie and Tyson are classy as well. Howe for his ability to mark the ball whether its kicked 5m short or 5m over his head. Not too many really bad kicks. Jayden Hunt every now and then will do a poor kick but he's got that easy athleticism and can mark above his head. He's a bit like Howe in the easy movement stakes. A simple drill 3 guys lead out, kick the ball to either of one of the 3 leading out 50m away. Just about sharp kicks and getting through the 40 or 50m sprint. Seemed a drill designed just to get voice up and run through. Into some ball use simulation drills with about 15 in blue v 12 in yellow vests with the aim of getting the ball to a coach or player at full forward then starting again from the backline trying to work it to the other end. Not really tackling or competing just working on kicking through a zone kind of thing. The ball movement started off pretty well and this drill showed the smarter players getting more of the footy. Trengove, Grimes, Watts, Jones getting lots of touches. One nice piece of play where Blease got the ball at half back, took off down the corridor, handballed to Jones who then kicked it straight to the full forward. Another where Watts wheeled on to his left from the right forward flank and put it lace out 40m to Bail I think who was the leading forward. But also some dumb stuff considering the numerical advantage and not always fluent movement. Dunn gave Blease a polite ear full about getting out of the space and leading in to it at one stage. Also a couple of times Blease had some work done during the drinks break on the muscles in the front of his lower leg but resumed training. JKH as we are now used to very busy in calling for the ball. Then they did a full ground circle work designed to move the ball as quickly as possible with defenders and forwards at either end and about 20 players moving in a scrum around the contest like midfielders do. Then they did the same drill but made it all about moving the ball slowly and methodically with short kicks and going back off the mark. Interestingly they then ran 2 footies at once with one moving fast the other slow. That was a bit strange to watch. Overall it was a decent hit out. A few missing. The big boys rehabbing but all moving well. Good numbers of supporters. Good numbers of 'official' people hanging around - Robbo, Josh Mahoney and several others in the official area. Nothing obvious to give away the captaincy news from the players, if anything Trenners was one I heard getting the boys in together and back on the track after a drinks break so good on him. As with Monday and last week I felt it was a productive session but also one that's about being patient and not going fully in to complex game scenarios or full on match practice.

Jones at the right hand of RDB who was then next to Roos. Tells me he's looking very likely for the captaincy. I've seen a few shots but they don't show the full photo and who was on the other side but I'd guess it would be Grimes.

I think whilst he's on AFL senior coach salary in terms of his payout for this year he can do a more relaxed job as a TAC talent manager and then try and get back to the AFL system in a year or two. At that time hopefully we improve and that could be spun to work in his favour as a legacy. He was a highly regarded and successful assistant at Collingwood. He was obviously hard working and had enough coaching ability as an assistant to hide what I think are some pretty gaping man management skills. There's no reason he can't work out as an assistant again under the right senior coaching leadership..

Out of interest is there offset language in his contract that means whatever he gets paid from another footy organisation takes away from the cash payout we are giving him?

I say for a clash jumper we change the dark blue to a light sky blue and in the process sell the club to Man City and be rebranded Melbourne City Demons and um yeah I'll stop now.

Ok I get it that you don't support the WA shark cull but can you not derail the thread.