Dr. Gonzo

It's still only 1 game a year against Port, it's just that we will play them there every year instead of only 2 years out of 3.

The phrase no [censored] Sherlock comes to mind. There's a reason why our players always trailed their opponents and refused to push hard running for team mates to create options etc. It's either they are not fit enough or just plain lazy. Glad it's the fitness because laziness is harder to fix.

Thank god we have a FD in place now who can at least identify the problem and take it from there.

I think we're possibly going to need 8 list vacanciew next year if we add Viney, 2 Compo picks, 2nd 3rd, 4th round in a good draft year and Nicholson and Evans - Green only makes a vacancy if we can promote another vet. It might turn out that we need less because we might trade the Compo picks for a player or even an MD pick. On the other hand we may bring in someone in Free Agency. I'd be thinking about elevation Nicholson and/or Evans this year to ease the pressure.

I would look at the same thing, particularly if we don't see any real value around our 52 & 54 picks. Considering this is meant to be a weak draft if there's nothing that takes our fancy I'd upgrade at least Nicholson this year and maybe Evans as well.

You'd seriously trade a bloke because his "value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get". So you'd trade every late pick gem and anyone over 27 as soon as they are in form. Seriously, that is not a reason to trade someone. Loyalty is a 2 way street, players would desert in droves if you treated them with such contempt.

I wouldn't trade out a player just because he had a good season, you have to weigh these things up.

Martin had a very good year in 2011. However I think the perception was greater than the reality, that is it maybe wasn't as good as everyone is talking it up to be. This is true not just of people within the club but around the league.

Now I've seen players have good seasons like this before and people think they will go on to become superstars. Case in point players like Brad Miller, Cam Bruce etc. The truth is most of the time these players do not improve beyond their "breakout" years and in fact have reached their potential. If I had to make a considered decision I'd probably say Martin will be similar to this. He may not be and I hope he continues to improve but if I had to guess I'd say he'll probably plateau rather than continue an exponential improvement.

Another consideration is we do have Jamar as first ruck, Gawn as a developing ruck, Spencer as a back up and now Mitch Clark. Given this it could be seen that Martin may be expendable. You wouldn't delist him or give him away for nothing, but if another club is interested and we are able to nab a decent midfielder or crumbing forward for example then you'd have to weigh up your options.

By no means should you throw the baby out with the bathwater, but had we decided to shop guys like Miller or Bruce around earlier in their careers rather than right at the end we probably could have got something decent in return and something probably above their real value.

But we have decided to keep Martin on and I am not unhappy with this decision. I hope he continues to improve and think he could play a role. I just won't be disappointed if he doesn't go on to become as good as Naitanui who some people here seem to be comparing him to.

EDIT: I also agree with you about the loyalty part which is why these decisions have to be weighed up.

So I cannot compare Martin to Pendlebury because Pendlebury went higher in the draft? Or NikNat because he has a superior skill set?

You are attempting to say that he comes from a non-football background and that is decisive in his career as it moves forward.

It isn't because Pendlebury has adapted fine.

And from what we saw last year, Martin is quite adept at adapting...

Add in the old axiom that talls take longer and I have little doubt that Martin can hold down the back-up ruck position very well, and allow Clark to concentrate on becoming a forward target that we so desperately need and have spent so much for.

Martin could get progressively better to the point where he is a real weapon. He also could plateau and may not get better than he showed in 2011. I agree with stevethemanjordan, we were all excited about Martin's 2011 because of the low expectations, not because he became a gamebreaker. That's not to say it wasn't impressive but we shouldn't get caught up in thinking that he is going to be the next dominant big man of the comp. It is for this reason I suggested a couple of months ago he be trade bait as his value is high right now and possibly as high as it will get.

In regards to Stef Martin. All this talk of him having a breakout season. I hope people mean it was a season in which we saw some solid improvement from a an athletic basketballer who is still very much learning the game.

There is no way in hell we can rely on him to hold down a position like CHF or CHB.

Martin is no natural footballer. He still has an extremely suss kicking style, is still understanding positional movement and lacks hardness and aggression. There is no way we can stick him at CHF and expect to even hold his own against good sides.

I agree with your post with one exception. I think Martin probably could hold down a key defensive role to play on the guys like Kreuzer, Jolly, Ottens, Cox etc who are rucks resting forward. He played defense in his first season to some success, I agree he is not a natural footballer which is why I would prefer not to see him played forward but defensively I think he has the athletic ability to shut down an opponent. Obviously if he has a guy like Rivers or Grimes helping him out as 3rd man up ala Maxwell it will help even more. My only query with this is his disposal as more and more you need guys with very good disposal coming out of your back half so you don't turn the ball over for an easy scoring opportunity.

I like the look of this!

Maybe swap Martin and Watts around though? Then Watts can go back to CHB when Martin is needed in the Ruck and Jamar can rest up forward?

Its great to see how many options have opened up with the addition of just one player.

Great pick up Dees!!!

Yep Watts has the talent to be a good playmaker but has too much goal sense and nous to be wasted too far from goals. He can pinch hit down back when Martin is rucking but would keep him forward for the majority of the time.

He didn't actually say, just made the point that we now had too many big blokes.

We do have a lot and I'd expect to see a couple at least moved on next year (Fitzpatrick, Spencer). At the moment I'd have Martin as a KPD as stated but if McDonald or Davis come on then they could easily replace him (McDonald particularly). This would leave us in an enviable position of being able to trade out Martin for something decent as as we saw this year versatile rucks are always in demand.

We had to get a big guy to fill a hole up forward and couldn't really afford to wait a couple more years for Cook to hopefully come on. We do need to start stocking up our midfield though and you'd assume this would be the aim of this and coming drafts. We had an advantage though knowing Viney and two compo picks are up our sleeve (and possibly Stretch as well down the track though it's too early to tell with him yet).

i think both of you are right...Mark Fine made the point we had drafted the wrong person!!

Who did he think we should have gone after? O'Hailpin?

The only problem with the Stef to KPD argument is what happens when it's his turn in the ruck? Can't send Jamar back there so will have to try and reshuffle our defense when that happens and try and limit his ruck duties to relieving for 5-8 minutes per quarter.

Clark at FF with jurrah and green in the pockets. Watts as a very mobile and athletic CHF with Martin at CHB. I think Martin can make CHB his own.

These are my thoughts as well. Clark FF with Jurrah and Davey at his feet, Watts roaming CHF with Howe/Petterd/Sylvia/Green/Trengove rotating off the flanks. Stef Martin to take the Cloke type forwards and resting ruckman in defense. He did well there in his first season and I don't think he ever really got the hang of playing a key forward role, not to mention his lack of accuracy with set shot kicking. I would rather see Martin on Cloke next Queens Bday than Rivers again. It also frees up Frawley to play a more attacking defensive role and allows Garland and Rivers to play the medium/small defender role with Rivers floating across as third man up similar to Maxwell.

It also gives us some flexibility to throw Watts behind the ball as a playmaker and put Martin at CHF to swtch things around.

With regards to Gawn, I wouldn't want to lose him and what happens will depend on his development. If he comes on next year and demands a starting spot then we could look at trading Jamar if he has some currency, possibly bundled with a comp pick or 2. I'd prefer to hold on to Jamar but if it comes down to a choice between he, Martin & Gawn, he'd be the first on the block due to his age.

As long as Schwab keeps his nose out of the FD and focuses on admin duties, I think the job is his. The FD is now stacked with experience let them do the job they were hired to do. Regardless of whether he was gone before 186 the work he's done since then is tremendous and I think he should have all but redeemed himself. All we need now is to secure the front of jumper sponsor and he will have helped totally turn the club around off-field (with the obvious help of Stynes, Lyon & McLardy).

Pretty disappointed the club couldn't make this happen. Bate is surplus to our needs and hasn't had a fair crack the last year or so. Obviously the new FD sees a role for him but you would have to think he is little more than depth. Still he is a big body who may come in handy protecting some of our younger kids over the next year or two in the midfield.

Juice is on the rookie list. Maybe the Spencil or Wonna to the rookie list.

C'mon Dees, get this one done for Bater. We've flexed our muscles quite well over the past few days, we have arrived, let's be the good cop too!

Agree I'd be disappointed if we didn't do the right thing by the Master, especially considering we'd be getting pick 39 which I reckon is overs anyway.

We've lost $cully & Warnock & gained Clark have to delist at least 2 more.

Compo plus Petterd?

I like Petterd but I'd probably take that trade. Gotta make sure you dont unsettle the playing group when using players like commodities for sale though.

Not for 2 compo picks though. Not only would we lose the compo but GC would gain them which we have to bear in mind as well. Could we get 2 players next year at around pick 15 in addition to Viney that would be a better gain than getting Caddy?

I don't think the contract is the issue, we have salary cap space to burn and his contract would be heavily front-loaded so as not to compromise our list management. The issue is is he worth pick 12 for us? I think the answer is a resounding yes.

We won't delist Bater. If he's not traded he stays. Joel Mac is a possibility for delisting though?

Yes of course, I meant that if this trade happens Bate would be one spot gone, didn't mean he would be delisted.

Would we offer anything for Hooker? He's a decent KP defender isn't he? Maybe we could get involved in a 3-way trade. We need someone to take the gorilla forwards/resting ruckman still. Martin may be able to fill that role now that we have Clark up forward but just a thought. If not is there anyone else on Essendon's list we would want who they might give up for a compo pick? (obviously not Hurley, Heppell etc)

Would love to land this kid but not at any price. Wouldn't want to give up 2 compo picks which has been touted, would rather keep them for next year. 1 compo pick and a player (Warnock, Spencer?) would be a great result.

I agree in general, if Bater wants out, let him go. Pick #39 is about his worth IMO, but we don't really know what the Dees are holding out for. There may be a player involved ....... someone to fill one of Neeld's gaps perhaps.

If it was a player thats another spot on our list we have to make room for. Who else can we delist? Bate, Warnock, Maric, Wona? Spencer?

Another thought - it was said Bate would take a pay cut to go to the Dogs - how does his contract work for next year (he has one more year with us) and does it affect our salary cap?

So any news on this kid? Is he a chance to go to another Vic club (us, Tigers, North?) or is it Bombers or bust?

I also think Bate may not fit in all that well with our playing group. No evidence to base this on just speculation. I remember a game earlier in the year when Green had Bate open in the goalsquare and didn't handball it to him kicking the goal himself. Bate was down on confidence (in & out fo the team) and loooked pretty disappointed the captain didn't give him a freebie. Only a minor thing and maybe nothing in it but I just thought there could be some issues there.

Let him go, take pick 39 and move on. No point holding the guy to ransom he obviously wants out.