Adam The God

Agree. If he was at Collingwood, Essendon or Hawthorn, the media would cream themselves over him.

See, I reckon Gus' strength is he can get it inside or out, but getting to the outside is where he comes to the fore for me and not in tight, but breaking away from stoppage and kicking long.

Gee, Lewis is a plonker. You'd think he'd have learnt something whilst playing alongside them. In what world would a mid first round pick be worth it for a player who we paid pick 3 for, finished third in the Brownlow two years ago, has yet to play 100 games and can play inside or outside, and is one of our most penetrative kicks from stoppage.

I completely disagree. Gus is nothing like Viney. He's not bang and crash and can get the ball on the outside. This thing Lewis said is just ridiculous and completely inaccurate.

So the back end of 2018, including finals, didn't do it for you? * West Coast in Round 22, 26 possessions and a goal (against a midfield that turned out to be a premiership one). * GWS in Round 23, 32 disposals and a goal. * Geelong in the first final, 26 possessions.

This was a great post @binman but I just want to focus on this point. Prior to Klopp, Liverpool's manager Brendan Rodgers (now at Leicester) was excellent at counter-attacking football and could generally transition quite well between attack and defence. Their attack was absolutely their best asset. Particularly, when blessed with the likes of Suarez and a firing Sturridge up front. But one of the big knocks on Rodgers' time at Liverpool was his side's ability to break down deep-lying opponents. In soccer it's called 'parking the bus' and Jose Mourinho was an expert at it. He'd basically set his team up to defend and sit back, and bank on the inevitable chance falling to one of his strikers. Anyway, Rodgers' style worked fine against stronger opposition (aside from Mourinho) who would usually try to attack Liverpool and mirror their game back at them. This suited Liverpool because gaps would open up and Liverpool were brilliant on the counter. But when they faced well-drilled, mid-tiered teams that parked the bus, they would struggle to break them down and it basically led to too many dropped points. I think the key difference between Rodgers' style and Klopp's is the focus on speed and clever movement from the front three attackers, but also the rotation of those in midfield roles and the gut-running from the offensive full backs in Andrew Robertson and Trent Alexander-Arnold. Liverpool play out from the back, as many teams try to. Man City do too. So the defenders try to beat the press with short, quick passes, keeping the ball mostly on the ground. This is used as a way of pulling the opposition out of a zone in midfield and then using the space in behind them to run and exploit as I've mentioned before. But when teams aren't pressing and they're sitting back in midfield against Liverpool, Klopp's Liverpool is so good, because it moves the football around quickly from side to side and plays quick diagonal balls into space, thereby manoeuvring the deep lying zone. This speed catches teams off guard and by using the two full backs as wingers (the two central midfielders cover them as faux defenders in front of the back 2), Liverpool can get in behind teams at pace and with quick interplay and clever movement from their forwards, can break them down. It's a different game and there aren't always apt comparisons, but the similarity I'd make between Klopp's fast pace is how we hit teams on the counter with 3 or 4 passes and bang, it's a goal. Because we move it quickly, the zone doesn't have a chance to set up and we 'get in behind' in effect. But the other comparison I think we can draw between Klopp's Liverpool and Goodwin's Melbourne is the aggressive midfield press if the ball has been lost in transition or from a stoppage. I'm really looking forward to seeing how we defend clearance tomorrow, because I think we have too many that get sucked into the press in areas of the ground that don't give our defence enough cover. Essentially, what happened earlier in the season was we'd win a clearance and the opposition would see it coming, shut it down, the Melbourne press would converge around them and one player would get out or the opposition would have some overlap and like that, they'd be through the main press and be able to hit up leading forwards without adequate pressure coming on them. Thinking on my above post further, I reckon we'll see a tweaking of the press around some stoppages tomorrow, which will mean if we win clearance, we'll be aiming to jet out of there (ala Oliver over the past few weeks) or use handball to break the outer stoppage ring and then our forwards can get to work with energy and smart leads, ala Liverpool's front three and their clever movement. This essentially how we beat Adelaide and North. The trick will be can Collingwood shut us down at the source and not allow us to jet out or use handball in space. Ah, sorry mate. I realise I essentially repeated what you'd already said here in my earlier post. We absolutely use set plays in our ball movement exercises. When we go from end to end quickly, that's a more overt example of it, but when our forwards are on the move (and not just anywhere, leading out of areas to create space for others) when we win stoppage, connection is seamless. This is the predictable Richmond model. Quick end to end transition or if no clear option is available, up and under kicks to Riewoldt or Lynch, allowing crumbers to get to the contest and midfield waves running by in support. How do you see us initiating attacks from a stand-still position, say, between wing and half forward, @binman?

Great article. It absolutely feeds what we're trying to do and it also could point to our evolution under Goodwin. I'd say our one wood for 2017-2019 was win clearance and attempt to score. If we lost the clearance, we'd often be too attacking or too loose in our defending to prevent opposition clearances resulting in goals. Particularly, last year. But across this time period, we didn't have the balance between defending clearance that we'd lose and those we'd win. In 2017-2018. I remember there being much debate about whether we were being too aggressive from stoppages. It may have been a combination of being too aggressive from stoppage, but also being too aggressive in our press. I think in the 2020 off season we've also developed an ability to slow teams down coming out of defence, through our new staggered semi aggressive press (that I outlined in the post above). I'm fascinated to see now how we're defending clearance and whether our set up changes from the staggered semi aggressive press. I'll watch for this closely tomorrow.

I reckon the key element here is predictability. I reckon we got rid of Sam Frost for a couple of reasons, but one of them, was most certainly his unpredictability. If you're going to take the game on and the coach encourages that, then great. But you've got to be strategic about where you kick it and your team mates have to be alive to your bold move. And hopefully it's not that bold and ideally it's a set play. The modern defensive zone being the way it is, if you turn the ball over with an attacking kick and the rest of your team mates aren't ready to cover or spread for the kick, all of a sudden there are holes everywhere and the opposition can exploit them. I get tired of our predictability from defence to Max, but Richmond are one of the most predictable sides in the competition. You know exactly how they're going to play and where they're going to try and channel the ball, but that doesn't mean you can stop it. That surge game is powerful and overwhelming. I really loved @Engorged Onion's first post in this thread about the system being unsustainable but that this could well be because our players aren't yet in that peak zone of premiership mode, with not only games played, but games played together on this system. I have certainly been one to comment that the system we play is unsustainable and I stand by that. But I'm referring to the system we play currently being unsustainable this season IMV. However, the Burgess recruit could well prove me wrong here. We certainly struggled to maintain it through 2018 and through the early part of 2020. But at the very least, we have started to become predictable. We force the opposition to kick long down the line, as you say, and I've got no doubt that we've tweaked our defensive zone over the off season (I'll deal with the forward zone in more detail below), but we didn't start to get it right until the Brisbane game IMV. I think in these stationary situations, where the ball is in the hands of the opposition across our half forward, our deepest defenders play like a back three or four in soccer. They set the depth of the zone, but also knowing that the opposition will want to maintain their forward structure and therefore won't break from their side too much. Because the zone has the width (a shout out to @La Dee-vina Comedia ), they know that the zone covers down the line, but also most of the corridor. If the ball is moved across our half forward (which is a risky move), our defence merely rolls the zone across the ground, so this becomes a useless option and teams will instead prefer to go down the line and create a contest and get metres on their opponent, as well as take the pressure off the defence (at least in terms of territory anyway). When a kick goes long down the line, the opposition forwards may attack the contest in front of the back 3 or 4, but the other mids and higher defenders will try to intercept. Our mids must track back with their opponent to these contests, otherwise it pulls out our back 3 or 4 from position and this is where Langdon's gut-running is so important as the sweeper. If our last or deepest defender has been pulled up to say 30 or 40 metres out from goal, Langdon often runs back in behind our defence to give that last defender cover. He did it quite a bit against Brisbane to great effect. The tweak over the last few years is that Frost would often be used as a sweeper due to his pace, but he played within the defensive zone so it left us vulnerable against his opponent. Having the sweeper come from midfield is handy and it means we can play that extra behind the ball. The fact that the extra is a gut-runner, means we're not left short in offence either, because he can run the other way too. So in conclusion, unless there are set plays, which the EPL teams do all the time (these would be part of our ball movement drills at practice), we won't be taking the game on willy-nilly. It's too risky to the defensive zone. I think set plays will tend to come off very rarely, but the longer this team plays together, the more likely they are to pull these moves off. I reckon our press at the start of 2019 was super aggressive and then we relaxed it, because we realised the zone was useless in being aggressive when the players couldn't cover the required amount of ground to implement it properly. This year, I reckon we've added a layer to it. The double wall as it were. And this goes to the forward zone I mentioned above. So the double wall is akin to Klopp's Liverpool press, but reverses the formula. Klopp's team is aggressive as a forward press team when the opposition has the ball in the front third of the pitch. If the ball gets into central midfield and is controlled by the opposition, the zone relaxes and the midfield sits back in front of the back four. By comparison, Melbourne play a forward zone from kick outs that sits across the forward 50 arc. Then behind it, we have another wall, set back 20-30 metres. This usually includes the likes of VDB, ANB and our wingers and forward flankers. If the opposition pierces the first zone, the midfield zone is super aggressive and tries to dispossess the opposition as they run and carry through half back or get delay on the footy to help the defenders behind them set up. The additional strength to our defensive press here is that a third wall sits back, which is the final fortification cemented by the deepest of our defenders (that back 3 or 4 that I allude to above), which means it doesn't leak goals out the back like it used to, because there is no 'out the back'. If the opposition are good enough, they hit up targets quickly or go long to contests deep in their forward 50 to put our defenders under pressure. This is where our mids or higher defenders try to get delay on the footy as it comes in or ensure that they roll back with their midfield opponents and make it as congested as possible in the back 50. Completely agree. IMO the contest is still absolutely our one wood, but we've developed a stronger team defence that is difficult to pierce (as mentioned above). I think it's aggressive, but it's not the entire team being aggressive. In 2018, I reckon our entire team pressed. Now, that's very rare. You mostly see two thirds of the team press and the back 3 or 4 as it were sit back and rely on the mids to get back and defend or kill the contest if it comes in long and contested. This is another reason I reckon Frost was moved on. He strikes me as slightly undisciplined in the way he would aggressively press, hence the headless chook nickname. He was too all or nothing. This is absolutely a cornerstone of our game. If the pressure and intensity isn't there, particularly in midfield, we get carved up and teams waltz through our zones. When we're focused and bringing the intensity, teams can't get through us. Great thread and I haven't really read it yet as I've been waiting for the weekend to roll around before I read it, because as you can see, I can't really keep my answers concise.

Really worried about whether Preuss can run out a game though. I know Grundy is coming off a four day break and has been smashed, but those kms in the legs can sometimes help push through the lactic acid. On the other hand, Preuss is cherry ripe, but how quickly does he start to become impacted by the lactic acid build up he's not used to? This is where it could be lost IMV. If Preuss demonstrates that he can't keep up with Grundy, we'll have to rest him forward and play Tom or Sam in the ruck, or maybe even Tomlinson and that will pull at our structure at either end of the ground. Collingwood then rebounds off Preuss when the ball hits the deck.

Fair enough. So who would you bring in to provide that same intensity or better? I'd have Melksham, Spargo and Fritsch easily ahead of his for connection. All three get really involved in scoring chains and connect half back to half forward, to deep forward when in form. Yeah, Spargo's only done it once this season, but he did it consistently in 2018. I expect he'll continue to be involved in scoring chains. We've then got Weideman, McDonald and then Petracca and hopefully Viney resting forward. He misses out because there's too many ahead of him. He, Melksham, Bennell and Fritsch need to bring much more pressure at the drop of the ball and in the contest.

Can't disagree with any of this. Let's hope we prove them wrong.

I should just say on this, I'm watching for how Vanders adds to our system. I've been constantly critical of his disposal, decision making, goal kicking etc, but I've watched him closely this season and I cannot deny that he brings a different intensity. Our system relies on intensity and when he's been out of the team, the intensity is noticeably different. I think he's a bit of a barometre, which is a strange thing to say, because I don't think I've seen an AFL player handball as poorly as he does, but he brings 110% intensity to that one pressure act that cannot be compared with one pressure act of Hannan's. FWIW, I don't think Hannan particularly adds to our forward connection.

VDB and Hannan are bringing different things to the team though. Hannan has to bring pressure and goals. VDB has to bring pressure. The latter isn't a clean footballer, but I don't think you can count it in pressure numbers necessarily, because for me, it's about the intensity that VDB always brings. VDB can set the tone of a quarter with one pressure act. Hannan needs to focus on putting four quarters together and then we can talk about his place in the team. You can't have a pressure forward not hit the scoreboard regularly or fail to lay tackles and continue to keep his position. Maybe it's unfair, but they bring different things and therefore I really don't think it's a case of Goodwin playing favourites.

Hannan played one quarter last week and then disappeared. Vandenberg, who I haven't been the biggest fan of over the journey, constantly brings pressure at the contest. I'd have consistent pressure versus flakiness every day of the week, particularly as our game is reliant on pressure.

I still think he'll feature heavily in the middle tomorrow. As @Lucifer's Hero says, there's nothing to say Gus won't play major midfield minutes tomorrow. The press are expecting he won't, because they've enjoyed putting that question to Goodwin all year. I'm surprised they didn't bring it up in the presser today. Anyway, completely agree with your post. He's an elite onballer, not a winger and gets the ball for fun, just as Oliver and Petracca do, but he knows how to get it on the in and outside. Let's wait and see what they do tomorrow, but if he has significantly reduced minutes in place of Viney and/or Sparrow, I'll be furious, because we won't be exploiting our list to its truest extent IMO.

What are you talking about? He's barely played in the middle all season. This is a shocker.

Come on. Give our club a bit of credit. As if.

The ruck position is overrated and this is backed by every premiership team in the modern era. Max is great around the ground, but as a marking intercept defender. I don't think it's arrogance. It's asking a difficult question. No one's saying they don't love Max, but the question is does his exclusion make us more unpredictable. I'd say it absolutely does. We should be looking at ways to maximise what he can bring that is an absolute weapon, which is that marking and the taps to advantage. I like @Pates post a lot. We've been far too one dimensional with Max. That's on the coaches, Max and the mids.

If this happens and we lose Gus, I'll be furious with Goodwin. I mooted trading Viney or Gus last off season, but I was wrong about Gus. He gives us something different. Either we learn to balance our midfield properly, or I know who I'd be letting go first.

We're stuffed then. We're hopeless in the wet.

Yep, fair call mate. Just as we were close to finding the right mix, let's hold our nerve and play as much of the same team to keep that structure and system together. I take it that's Viney and Preuss in for Jackson and Jones?

I don't trust Preuss (fitness wise), but if the club does, I'll back them until I have evidence to the contrary. In the case of Preuss coming in, I'd keep Tomlinson back.

Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't, I'd say. If Jackson did his hamstring during the game, I reckon the club has kept that under wraps pretty well for quite a few days.

Yeah, but the club doesn't need to rush out and report what the situation is, just so you can settle your anxiety.

If Oscar comes in, Tomlinson should go into the ruck IMV. That way we keep our forward structure with Weid and McDonald.