Adam The God

I probably should have asked you more specifically what you meant by comparing Liverpool's press with what Goodwin's trying to do. What did you mean there?

I consider myself pretty down on our team, but Errors and Omissions take it to another level.

Well, no one takes it seriously, so it's become more of a 'Praise Jason Taylor' thread.

Agreed, although it might also say that we're at that list cycle stage of going after players that can contribute immediately from day dot, rather than look to build a core over a number of years. Jackson in particular is super impressive for his ability to stay in contests and run out games given he's playing in far more contested positions than Rivers or Kozzie are. That said, all three look exciting prospects. Have you had your internet cut off, @Elegt? I haven't seen much from you since prior to the Adelaide match.

Fair enough. I disagree. I don't think he'd a lock if he was 180cm. That seems nonsensical to me. If he's good enough he'd be a lock. And as it stands, if he continues to connect mids with deeper forwards (as he did throughout 2018) it doesn't really matter if he was 170cm or 180cm. As you point out, he has elite agility, is neat with the ball and clever (ie runs to the right positions). These traits could well make him succeed, particularly in our system, across half forward. We move the ball incredibly quickly and being able to turn on a dim as he's able to and keep it moving, makes him a very handy addition to our forwardline. As @Nasher pointed out too, clearly Taylor saw something in this mixture of traits (agility, smarts and clean ball use) to use a relatively good second round pick on him. Of course, Taylor could be wrong, but I've always liked Charlie and I'd prefer to look at what he brings in-game rather than look at his profile that tells us he's closer to 170cm and seemingly make a judgement on that. Each to their own there and all apart of a rigorous, interesting discussion. : )

I find this a strange argument. What has this got to do with whether Brayshaw can do it against the best? He's done it before. And this year, he hasn't been given the chance to do it against the best, instead he was played on a wing. As soon as he's been given the chance to go in the guts for regular TOG, he's done all that was asked of him. I feel like you're being pretty harsh on him, but anyway. As for why a few of those players haven't recaptured form, let's break that down. Tom McDonald's had injury interruptions; Spargo was a second year player last year (he was given a go last night and did well); Harmes (as it's well-documented) is being played out of position (not the same position as 2018); Jetts has slowed down considerably, that's just apart of football; ANB is a role player whose form has always been up and down (even in 2018); and Vandenberg has made us tougher this year but struggled with disposal just as he did in 2018. We've also had an injection of younger talent that has gone past these guys. I'd argue Weideman has gone past Tom now. It's clear Lockhart is Nev's heir. And ANB's been competing with the likes of Sparrow and Bennell. Gus can do it against the best sides and if we have the right midfield combination, he will prove it again and agian. Agreed with most of this, although Spargo did burst it open at one stage last night and got the ball going back out way as he burst through a stoppage at half back and we got a goal out of it at the other end. I just think it's far too early to be writing off players, particularly simply because of their height. As a 6 foot 6 fella I'm all for giving it to little people (ie the rest of the you), but to say someone won't make it because he's too small, I think is... short sighted.

We could probably level that at most of our team this year and particularly last night. Fritsch, Hannan, Petracca, Kozzie, Weideman all missed simple shots at goal. Langdon showed last year at the Dockers that he can be a goal kicking wingman. He's still settling in and I wonder if he's being asked to do more defensive work to cover our offensive midfield, than he did at the Dockers. Not only does he gut run to sweep (see @Lucifer's Hero's comments), but he's usually an unmanned outlet on the wing, half forward or half back for our mids to give to, as well as providing overlap off half back and the wing. He's been a brilliant pick up and getting better by the week. Strange call by Richo if that's what's been said. For mine, Melksham is clearly our best set shot. Think this is completely unfair mate. Spargo is 20 years old. Wouldn't have thought Jetta was particularly strong in the core in his early days either. I also agree with @titan_uranus about your height comment. If Spargo can run games out, tackle, get to the right spots and use the ball efficiently, he'll make it. Consistent showings like last night, which I think he delivered relatively often in 2018, will see him make it. And to be fair to our group and coaches, our defensive zone has looked very good for the majority of the year and has kept teams to consistently lower scores.

I'd give him the security of two personally. Maybe slightly reduced wage, but even when he invariably slows down soon enough, I reckon it's important to look after a guy in his position. I think he's proved he'll give us at the very least another year of good footy and it's fair to say if he continues on this trajectory for the rest of the year, he should get a two year deal IMO.

Which is a great effort considering what he's been through personally this year.

I think you're being myopic here. Take a look at the majority of 2018 without Viney. It's clear Brayshaw can perform like that against a stronger midfield than North's. He did it most of 2018. Great point this mate. If you give Viney a tagging role, it limits his see ball, get ball, ball up. I just think we need to try things as @Patches O’houlihan says, instead of just sticking with the same old rubbish roles that we've had until the last two games. You don't have to change your system, just try giving players different roles within your system. We don't do this anywhere near enough for mine and the times we do (Fritsch back, Harmes back, Gus on a wing) it so clearly does not work, but we persist with it for way too long.

Absolutely, and because he's usually so clean from ground balls or loose balls, he's able to accelerate through stoppage and out. Great post. Noticed this happening more when Viney was going for the first contest as well.

I think Oliver v Viney is the better comparison, but Viney rarely gives hands as you say and tries to run through people. So he doesn't bring his team mates into it. I just think Oliver is a once in a generation talent with his ability to find the ball. He has a rare mix of good decision-making, speed and ball reading ability. Petracca is a bull whose intensity goes through the roof around contest now. It goes up and down that intensity, that allows him to make good decisions. To me, Oliver and Petracca have switches to go to in their play, mostly around intensity and acceleration into and out of the contest, whereas Jack has less tools in his kit IMO. If Oliver and Petracca have 2 or 3 gears, Jack has one. Unless Jack changes his game, I think he gets in the way of Oliver and Petracca (happened a few times even in the Adelaise game), so if he's playing midfield, he probably needs to be in there without Oliver and possibly even Trac. What does Viney, Gus and Harmes look like as a rotational 3? At the end of the day, I don't think it'll be as strong as any combination involving Oliver. All of this is academic and hypothetical, because I don’t see the coaches playing Jack as a pressure forward. Even though, it's plain as day that he'd be decent in the role and would enable Gus to gel with Oliver and Petracca and exploit each other's strengths to the maximum. I'd love to be a part of the Melbourne coaching team because there are so many options and solutions to try and yet we stick with positional rigidity throughout our system.

I've said he should play three roles. Tagger/most defensive mid, pressure marking forward and winger. That's plenty of options, but as to whether we have enough midfield minutes to give, there's a player you haven't mentioned above and that's Sparrow who is getting midfield minutes and to me looks quite lost in transition. And I'd play Viney as pressure forward too.

Fair enough mate. Each to their own. I think that could hurt confidence. Instead, I'd keep him in and say, we're gonna back you, Harmesy, but we're going to give you a midfield or forward role, because we think you can add a lot to our offensive game.

Absolutely agree that he's been horrendous, but I reckon playing him out of position is smashing his confidence. I mean, I don't know how many players we have to do this to before Goodwin realises that maybe we should try a different role for them. As for the tagging thing, a lock down role with a focus more on stopping his opponent is the perfect way to build confidence. It's not based on you winning the football, it's a defensive role. And as you have simpler KPIs, you can meet them and your confidence can grow. It's a bit like what we've seen with Weideman whose KPIs are get to as many contests as possible. He's built from that low base and slowly developed confidence. Now he's looking like he could break out this year. I think this is the best way to coach personally, and I'll back Harmes to clean up his disposal and become damaging again if he's played in a more suitable position, like a tagging midfield role either in the guts or on the wing. I'd give him a task and say you're playing on the opposition's best or most valuable player and shut them down. Don't worry too much about your offensive game, but if you get it, absolutely try to hurt them going the other way. Come 3 or 4 games in that position, a couple of small wins, maybe a big win in there and he starts to get some touch back. Maybe it's even a defensive forward role on the opposition's most dangerous half back? We know Harmes can be a weapon from midfield-forward when his confidence is up. Let's hope he's given the chance by the coaching group.

I'd be dropping Sparrow next week if Viney comes back in. Young player, give him a rest so that we can bring him back in fresher when required. Viney plays forward, takes forward stoppages and occasional midfield bursts. Harmes plays midfield minutes and wing, taking Sparrow's role from tonight. I feel like we're getting close to finding the right mix. If Sparrow gets up again, take out Jones. We have to get proper bang for our buck with Gus and Harmes. Viney's a leader, he'll take to a forward role with stoppages minutes.

You watch. The coach will eventually move him forward and put him on the wing and he'll be markedly better. It's a bit like the Bailey Fritsch experiment down back. Or the Gus Brayshaw wing thing.

There's a difference between what will happen and what should, mate. I'd like to see how our mids go again without Max. Goldstein was probably the best ruck in the competition coming in to tonight and he had little to no influence.

There should be if his inclusion makes us a less effective team. Viney should take forward stoppages and that's about it. Forwardline the rest of the time or when Gus is resting on the bench. Our midfield destroyed them in effective clearances and then our mids got involved around the crowd. Is there really much more to say? 2017 and 2018 without Viney, Gus is A grade, with him, he's nowhere. I think Gus is a better, more damaging player than Jack. There's three and a half seasons of evidence really...

Rubbish. Gave us a lot of penetration and went backwards and retained possession where appropriate. We're rubbish when we go consistently long down the line. We tried to use the angles from half back to free up players who could rebound through the corridor. Langdon played his role.

Disagree. Thought we were sloppy and careless in the first half and with the exception of the Harmes punch to the guys hand, all the frees were there for mine. Yep, don't know what people are talking about RE: Langdon's disposal tonight. Thought he was really solid and continued to get to great positions. Gus so much more damaging than Viney IMO...

Agree, but he really needs to become more consistent if he's going to make it. He's not a young fella, but inexperienced in games played. Would elevate us so much if he could put together 4 quarters of football.

One of them is still right...

Btw, that stat about 2017 when we went on our run without Gawn that was brought up at the start of the game, I knew we'd gone on a run that year, but that stat was even more impressive than I remembered it being. Just a little bit of food for thought...

This call is just as early as Malthouse's. We're still not in the 8 and we're 5-5. Let's see how the rest plays out.