montasaurus

His off field efforts that was central to the destruction of the culture at a successsful club mitigate his on field excellence.

Some great players like Hird, Buckley inspire greater performances from key players. Cousins influence went the other way.

A flawed champion in my opinion.

Interesting you have hird and buckley in the same sentance. IMHO, buckley is not in the same class as hird as flags and leadership in the real big games do count for a bit in my book. taking in pre-season GF's - pls correct me if I am wrong but in buckleys time at the filth he lead them to 6 grand final losses. I couldn't help myself sink the boots in on this one!

Hird and Voss were a long way ahead of everybody else during their time and were the only 2 elite players of this era.

I just checked the ABC web site and it makes no mention for tonight. Does anyone know for sure if there is a telecast anywhere?

Itching to have a look at Jurrah, it is interesting that he is about the only player on the list that has no AFL games to his name.

its next week!

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/afl...2-19742,00.html

From the ABC web site

NTAFL: Indigenous All Stars Vs Adelaide Crows

11:20pm Saturday, 07 Feb 2009 Sport

I believe there's a delayed telecast on the ABC.

I just checked the ABC web site and it makes no mention for tonight. Does anyone know for sure if there is a telecast anywhere?

Itching to have a look at Jurrah, it is interesting that he is about the only player on the list that has no AFL games to his name.

Good point.

I wonder how far he would have slipped if he did the injury pre-draft.

Still looking forward to seeing him play.

I would suggest he would have slipped outside the top 10.

Tom Swift for mine, I was against MFC drafting him due to injury issues however will be interested to see if he lives up to the potential. I think it was suggested he was a top 10 even top 5 if he had not had issues with his knees. But I think we have by far the most exciting group of 1st year players of any club to watch over the next couple of years.

Yes. Good point. However I was enjoying the read on the debate about "elite" with respect to the mfc from all posters, until I came accross yours, now you've gone and ruined it for me Monty..... just kidding.

Sorry HT......... hope you slept ok knowing this!

Back on to the debate and I pose a question for posters, is Glen Archer an elite player or just a very good player over a period of time?

I agree Robbie Flower is an elite player.

I think Glen archer fills the Nietz type comparison i had earlier...

Champion of the club - Yes

Champion of the AFL - Yes (Attack on the football and courage 2nd to none with apologies to nietz in his prime)

Elite of the game? - No, Skills were not good enough IMO. the perfect comparison here is Carey v Archer in their prime and IMO carey was elite and archer was a champion. Likewise lyon v neitz. had have lyon's body not failed him he would have been an elite of the game, neitz will be remembered as one of the all time champions of our club certainly in the modern era.

Iteresting Brian Wilsons name has not been mentioned much? Also el-President? the latter was certainly an elite ruckman and champion I would have thought.

I became a big fan of buckley very early last year. I think along with grimes they are the real 2 to watch from last years group (Apologies to CM).

I can remember chatting to my brother at half time early last year in a game where he would have finished with close to 30 touches in a game we got smashed.

I was being a little critical of his disposal, especially by hand. To which my brother said he's not missing his targets, the boys around him aren't where they are supposed to be. From this point I took a real close interest in buckley in the way he moved at stoppages, work over the ball etc and have to say what I started to see immediately impressed me. Far to often over the last couple of years I have seen our midfield flat footed at the stoppages. This puts the players 1m behind where they should be on a clearence win. the other thing I noticed was generally when buckley missed his target the handball was in front of the player generally by about a meter. So as the players get to know each other these handpasses are more likely to hit targets under pressure releasing quick football into the forward line. Also he has a judd like ability to take the opporsition players on and beat them and he will learn when to and not to do this. So Buckley within this season could well become our #2 or even #1 midfielder.

He is a ball magnet as well, plus looks like physically he is developing as well.

A good player to fill a hole in a super coach midfield as well (his price should not be too high).

Well said,

Champion of the club - Yes

Champion of the AFL - Yes (Lets not forget the no Nietz no Melb comments for many years)

Elite of the game? - I would say maybe no, but Robbie yes he did week in week out neitz did have some less productive times due to things like injuries etc. So I would suggest luck as much as anything has to do with being an elite player v champion.

BTW what happened to blease & Strauss??

To start the topic off again has anybody seen them much. There hasn't been a lot of news coming back from training for these guys. Interested in skills, descision making, fitness etc.........

No Doubt, but as a forward, the most important weapon is instinct, and wonna has it in spades. Opposition can combat many things, fitness, stratergy, form, but they can never plan for natural instinct.

Bingo - Natural instinct or as I was discussing earlier a component of this is the ability to loose your opponent. yes his impact lessend for the reasons outlined already as the year went on but he still had an ability to find a huge amount of space all the way to the end of the season at times. As Rhino put it before he will be one very interesting player to watch this year, especially off the ball work.

Wona will be subject to more defensive pressure this year regardless.

Agree with everything else rhino, but "regardless" is not right for me. Subject to form, team balance, position etc are more likely to dictate the amount of negative pressure and attention he receives.

Wona's efforts in his first season were creditable and he was rightly elevated onto the main list.

However, there is no doubt that as an uplifted rookie in a bottom dwelling club he flew under many sides radar and he was not given the respect from opponents that more experienced players would normally get. He cannot expect to get the same latitude this year.

Fair call, but I'm sure you would agree some players just have an ability to loose their direct opponent more so then others.

After 3 or 4 good even great games last year he had heavy media coverage and I can't accept that teams would have been unprofessional and arrogant and not man up on wonna. No nietz, no robbo, no davey forward, miller and wonna would have been the 1st 2 forwards i would have been looking at as an opporstition coach in the 2nd half of the season yet He still was able to find increadable space. Hopefully increase fitness will allow him to become more then just an impact player for us in 09.

Re latitude this year if our best 22 generally stay fit and a couple of this years draft come through you never know he could be given a little more lattitude then he faced in my eyes last year. But i do agree if he repeats much of last years heroics he can expect a full time shadow. I know this is contradictory but either case could prevaile - form, team balance, opporsition strengths etc are all factors

The thing that impressed me the most last year was the fact he knows where to run to, and can actually kick the damn thing! He finds best position, in close and out in space nearly every time.

I'm really excited about Woenna, I reckon he's going to tear it up this year

Totally agree, even after he burst onto the seen his ability to find considerable space was unbelievable. Surely this was not arrogance from opporsition sides rather his ability loose his direct opponent and play as an impact player for us.

I hope you were Nostradamus in a prev life!

I totally agree with you... Guys how to you remember Todd Viney... he was the capt for two years at the end of his career when we could of given it to a younger Neitz, that and he was similar to JMac guts determination not all class and polish

Totally agree, Jnr has led some of the 1%'er stats for years not just at the club but the league. He is all australian, B+F winner, mature and plays with his heart on his jumper. Who better to lead this great club at this point in time? Many other clubs rotate players every 1-3yrs with out retirement so I think this is a great appointment irrespective of how long it will be for. in a few years I suspect we could well see mc clean or watts as cap (Carey was captain at North when he was 21 I think).

As usual a solid decision like this from the club draws critisim - Unbelievable, I can't understand why anybody would be unhappy with a true leader as captain of our club?

....and he is only 22yo.

He has stacks of time and opportunity to make the big time.

However, is JP Duminy the find of the summer? At 24yo (still very young by modern cricket standards) his performance with the bat and in the field have been astonishing in their maturity and poise. I am scratching the think of a better debut under tough competitive conditions from a player under 25? Michael Clark in India in 2005(?)???

What a series for duminy, but from our side it would be siddle for mine - big future, big heart, bit of mongrel in him as well.

And while we are on vic fast bowlers did anyone watch the vic v nsw 20/20. How nannes can't get a 20/20 international game is beyond me.

well done jnr and CB. I think the club have made the right decision for this season.

I have my membership and my sons and we go to amost every home game.

Also in some years, when I can afford it, I buy a membership for my wife, and in some years I even buy one for my adult daughter. I think my daughter has been once in 5 years and my wife 2 or 3 three times. This is therefore a donation.

I was thinking this year of giving a donation to the debt demolition of about the same amount as a membership, but I am not sure which one helps the club more. A membership has some costs associated with it such as mail outs etc, but it does help with the clubs perceived stength amongst sponsors etc.

Anyone have any thoughts as to which is best?

Have a look at the heartland membership. This allows upto 20 kids to go for 50 bucks from the casey area. I think this is a good long term initiative

Any side will/should always have a backup defender in the two's.

I think the last spot will be between warnock and martin.

Dutchie is no longer with us so that will mean one of the younger players will miss a spot. I would suggest if they are all fit then another option to look at is either martin or garland should be played KPF if newton doesn't take the next step.

well said dappa. I think Jnr is the right decision here. mclean needs atleast 1 full year in the leadership group before he could be considered for the top job.

Don't underestimate the power of an APS school mate

Correct, If I remember back fletcher gave up games for essendon to play AGS against us - I doubt much has changed

I would have thought blease is unlikely due to age and size. Also bell in for rivers who is not going to be fit

I think thats right but if the improvement is there then they wont hold it back.

I know a bit has changed, but the core group is not that different from that who was touted as the top vic side not that long ago. If our snr players are fit and play well, we will be able to match it with many. a few early wins/upsets and the playing group will fancy themselves.

Rubbish.

Tingay was too injury prone and missed 4 to 5 years of football when he was at his prime. He was important in MFC's 1994 and 1998 finals push but not elite.

Lovett - Brett or Glenn?? Glenn had chronic soft tissues.

Viney- Hard strong inside midfielder whose game was let down by ordinary foot disposal.

All good MFC players in their time but not elite and barely troubled the MFC team of the century.

lovett and Viney standards but it would be good if many of our "depth" players were that good. And yes we do need one or two players to become elite.

In both 94 & 98 we went close. By 2011 I think we would all be happy if we have had a year close to either of these.

"All good MFC players in their time but not elite and barely troubled the MFC team of the century." - This was my point. When fit they were able as a group to not only match it with the best but beat a lot of them i.e., close to elite level. Indivially none of them were elite, but as a group were on the verge. Right now 1st step get a midfield to compete thats it. then hopefully a couple develop into the star status. IMO brock mclean has whats required if he can stay fit. Watts in a hird type role could well start to fill the hole. Add a couple of B+ or A middies to this (morton, jones, grimes, struass, blease) and we may yet get there.

There might not be many of us, but we've put up with a lot of crap and probably have the same base hardcore supporter group that any team has

Right on there, die hards!. although I feel something has been taken away since reserved seat allocation has been introduced. Once upon a time the old red seats in the olympic stand was the most incredable atmospher you could experience outside of finals. But now its lost. insted of having people sitting close together in the "best seats" we are all forced to be allocated the "next best" available. Unfortunately unlike my little band of die-hards many people are unable to go week in week out thus leaving gaping holes in the bays. This is made worse by weather and performance. Maybe its just me but as great as the two games were last year they still could have been a lot better where I was sitting (re atmospher etc). in a MFC members reserve Lv1 open air there would have been 50 out of 1000 there. An absolute discrace. for geelong later in the year there would have been lucky to be 5/1000!

For these "small" games I can't understand why the bay has its seating allocation removed. Encourage bandwagon supporters to be there, if you want your seat turn up early. For the big games by all means have the allocated seating. This would allow the whadda we sing to be belted out just that little bit stronger and maybe prouder, not to mention fanatical support to be centralised rather then being dispersed.

The last real "star" or elite of the game MFC produced was Robert Flower and he retired in 1987.

Tingay, Viney, Lovett?? Not stars but i would say close to the elite level over a few years. Certainly as a group which is more important then individually.

But this re-inforces our current problems, even as a group they just can't cut it against the better sides. Moving forward if we can get mclean, jones, morton, blease, strauss to develop into a tingay, viney, lovett type group we will have a pass mark. We need 1 or 2 to develop into stars and gain an A mark on this group.