Demonic Ascent

Fair enough I was just going by the Herald Sun article from last year which was probably based on 2009 figures.

Garry will never coach and I don't think most people would want him to anyhow. Maybe 6 or 8 years ago but the moment's past.

The thing that bugs me about the "3rd party arrangements" thing is are these rules actually written down anywhere? Or do the AFL just make them up on the run? Surely the club would be well aware of the exact wording of the rules? And if the rules are written down in plain english then how can they be "tightened" without being changed and re-worded. As a paying MFC member for 20+ years and as a member who contributes $500 each year to the MFC I think I have the right to demand they call the AFL on this and demand the AFL show them the rule instead of just bullying us through the media. I think these 3rd party agreements are a joke anyway and shouldn't be allowed. But the facts are they are allowed, at least 114 players in the league have them and the only clubs that don't are us and North. Now that we want to use a 3rd party agreement for one of our players the rules have suddenly been "tightened". Surely there are ways around this though. If the AFL won't let a player accept one at the same time he is coming out of contract surely an arrangement could be made for Scully to have an "arrangement" kick in a year after he signs. Or for one of his family members to be "looked after". Or any other number of ways around it? However as I said I think the club should take a stand and demand the AFL put the exact wording of the rule to us so we know exactly what we are dealing with.

If he'd rather be stubborn about it to the point of being detrimental to the club then good luck to him. Why would players want to wait until after the season? So they can negotiate a better deal. If we've already offered our best deal and he knows what else is on the table from GW$ then what is the point of waiting longer? The only reason would be to decide whether he actually wants to play for MFC next year or that he has already made up his mind and will be signing with GW$. This is why the Sylvia case is different. Sylvia is negotiating a new contract. Tom already has the ebst offer we can afford which would make him close to if not the highest paid player at our club eclipsing guys like Davey & Green who also stalled talks til the last second to get to the $550-$600K mark. If being the highest paid player in his third year is not enough then I wouldn't want to compromise the team anymore. There really isn't much of a decision left to make and I'm sure he would have been pondering all year whether he wants to move interstate and whether he would sacrifice a few hundred K's to stay at MFC. If he wants to stay with us all he has to do is sign now with our best offer on the table. If he doesn't sign in the next fortnight or at least come out and say he wants to stay at MFC and make an in principle agreement then sorry but he's gone. If guys like Kreuzer, Swan etc can commit what is stopping Scully?

Exactly right. I backed him as telling the truth (and I still believe he was). Circumstances have now changed, the offers are on the table, he knows what his choices are and would know that MFC cannot offer anymore than they already have. So what is holding him back? The only reason I can see now for him not wanting to sign is that he is leaving MFC for GW$. $600K is a lot for a kid barely out of his teenage years who is still yet to really prove himself and has a dodgy knee. If this offer is not good enough and he is holding out for MFC to offer more (potentially costing us players and a premiership down the track) then the club may be better off without him anyway. That is sad to say as I think he will be a gun (though not sure about him reaching Judd-like status as many have suggested) and seems like a great kid who would be a good influence on others with regards to his preparation and training etc. But the kid needs to consider what is the best outcome for himself AND the club. Just holding out for as much money as possible with no regard for the club is downright greedy and selfish (I am not saying this is what is going on only that it is greedy & selfish if that is what is going on).

I'm pretty sure that was just a hypothetical. They were just saying for instance if an offer like that existed what would be the difference between that & Judd/VISY.

The obvious difference is Sylvia has not been offered $1million/year. He hasn't been made an offer that our club cannot match by another club who can take him for free without us having to negotiate a trade with them. Scully has been offered more than we can afford by a club who can take him for free without negotiating a trade. We have told him the maximum amount we can afford to pay to keep him so there really isn't any room to negotiate further. He knows what we can afford and that is now on the table. If he wants to stay that's what he gets take it or leave it. I would have thought a 20 year old kid just finishing his second year in the system would be more than happy getting $600K/year and would want to ensure he was not bending the club over backwards to try and extort an extra $50 or $100K out of the club as this may lead to the club losing another valuable player down the track and compromising Scully's ability to play in a successful team. If you can't see the difference bhetween Scully & Sylvia/Watts etc then that really is ridiculous. By the same token in years gone by the club has been bent over by Green, Davey & Bruce amongst others no doubt. Were they worth it? Or would we have been better off playing hardball, cutting our losses and trying to build a team of players who are willing to sacrifice to get the ultimate prize and who are willing to put the club ahead of themselves. I mean geez it's not like these guys will be begging in the streets. Scully will be making more money in 3-4 years at MFC than a lot of people can make their entire working lives. This is not to mention the cash he will earn in the subsequent contracts, sponsorships and endorsements and jobs he is able to get post his footy career. I think the club and supporters have been very patient and supportive so far but I think Tom should probably look at the offer and do the right thing by the club instead of just dragging this out and delaying the process even more. The way it's going now he is in a no-win situation (other than the cash coming his way). Sign with GWS at the end of the year and he is a mercenary with no respect in the football world. Sign with the MFC at the end of the year and the question will be "why could this have not been done sooner?"

Rubbish. The MFC is doing what is in the best interests of the MFC they cant put all their planning on hold for the sake of one player. They have done the right thing in my opinion and have compromised by not forcing the issue earlier in the season and not waiting until the last second when they have other players to look after as well aslook at other options such as maybe luring a player that the $600K could go towards if Scully heads to GWS. If Scully was fair dinkum about wanting to stay at the club he could easily make a decision now I mean seriously it's not rocket science. Either you stay here for less money or you go to GWS for a hefty payday. It just depends what he wants out of footy I guess does he just see it as a job or does he live and breathe it. It's fair enough to say that he told the club last year contract talks would be on hold til after 2011 and yes other players have done this before but this is a different situation. You can't compare apples with big Orange and black watermelons. I've backed him to this point but I'm starting to think the kids gone. His manager says it's not the type of decision you make between training sessions? Well for the love of god surely this has been weighing on the kids mind all year and he'd have an idea of what he's going to do. Are we seriously expected to believe the kid will not even think about his future until the final siren in round 24 (or finals) and then meditate on this decision like a monk for a week? He knows what the MFC can get him and yes there may be some discussion about the particulars but if he wants to stay surely he can agree to an in principle contract with Melbourne and let his manager work out the particulars. Through no fault if his own the current situation has the kid putting himself ahead of the club and whether he intended it or not that is the way it's played out not he wants to stay with the MFC fine come to an agreement if he doesn't in the next couple of weeks then see you later don't let the door hit you on the way out.

I'm sorry but that last part is absolute rubbish. I've taken him at his word so far and see no reason not to continue to do so. However whether intended or not letting this play out the way it has puts himself ahead of the team and is selfish to an extent. Yes he has the right to negotiate a contract at the end if the year but these are different circumstances to the usual. This is not an even playing field. He would have an idea of what he is worth and would have an idea what the club could afford. The club needs to sort this out so that they can figure out what deals can be made to other uncontracted players. If he wants to play at MFC fine then he should cop a fair deal which would be less than what he could get at GWS but which may see him win a flag at the club (which is what this is about at the end of the day despite others trying to tell you this is just a job). Other teams have had players sacrifice pay to keep a successful team together and I would hope our guys would do the same to try and build a successful team. I just don't really see why this should be put off any longer; there isn't really anything to negotiate and if he was fair dinkum he would take half a mil a year and count his lucky stars that he is fortunate enough to get such a good deal at such a young age having proven not much to date. Taking any more than this will benefit him but could potentially harm the club in the long term. If he is fair dinkum about being a successful footballer and not just a rich one then he would be taking the clubs best interests into consideration. To do otherwise would be downright greedy and selfish almost to the point of the club being better off with him gone so that they can get fair dinkum about building towards a flag instead of being held to ransom by a kid and his manager. I would love him to stay but would hope it is not to the detriment of the rest of the team.

Not rambling mate you are spot on. Last week we caned the Tigers in close because of our teamwork. Why this team feels they can rest on their laurels has me bemused.

And on the coaches - what is the deal with telling every man and his dog how we were going to play tonight? I think I saw at least three articles in the last couple of days telling the world we were going to try and play the boundary and not go through the corridor. All the Dogs had to do was corner us onto one flank and either wait for us to handball in circles and turn it over or just bomb it up the lines to a contest which we inevitably lost.

Very disappointed but thought we would struggle to get up - we had a pretty tough game last week and were knackered in the last quarter against the Tiges, we could barely raise a trot - Bulldogs had a cushy win against Gold Coast. Not to mention half our team have played only around 20 games. Still gutted and the effort was not good enough. Don't even get me started on the umps. At least 3 goals just handed to them on a platter. Yes the Dogs outplayed us on every line but that just guts the team. Not to mention our relatively easy misses. 3rd quarter Green and Sylvia miss gettable shots to bring the margin to around 20 points. They take it down and kick a goal and the margin's back out to 33 points.

Fair go mate Petterd was one of the only players having a crack.

If it is found in 4-6 years or so GWS have breached the salary cap in order to try and keep their top draft picks as well as the players they've raided do you think they'll face any sanctions? NRL stripped the Storm of their cups and made them play outthe year for no points. AFL would give GWS a slap on the wrist and let them go about their business.

Or Sylvia? Or Trengove (next year)? Making us pay overs for Scully might mean we can't afford to keep one of our other out of contract players.

Surprise, surprise. Seriously F*** the AFL I was in the Dogs position I would be really pi$$ed off. What's the point in having rules if they're just allowed to breach them anyway? If the shoe was on the other foot and one of the AFL's pet projects was getting stooged you can bet there would be repercussions. AFL gives green light for talks between Ward & GWS

So either eat before you go in or grab some Subway or a Souva at half time. If the team is playing in Melbourne you support them wherever they play. When I was younger I went to the Western Oval, Princes Park, Vic Park, Windy Hill, Moorabbin, Waverley and anywhere else we may have played since the late 80's because I support the team. Unless you are working, have to attend a birthday or any other commitments, are a student or pensioner with no funds and your membership doesn't get you in or you have some other legitimate excuse, not just "I don't like the ground" then you should be there and if you are not then it is nothing short of pathetic. As I said earlier the supporters on this forum I would assume are some of the more dedicated and even they refuse to travel 10 minutes down the road to watch the team I hate to think what the fairweather supporters are thinking. No wonder we are a laughing stock who get no respect from other teams or the AFL. No wonder we struggle to get 20K to matches against interstate teams and get shunted to Sunday twilight timeslots. If you want the team to be respected you have to support them not just whinge about things not going our way.

Wolfmother thanks for your posts they are greatly informative for those of us who have no contact with the inner sanctum at the club. On Footy Classified they played Schwab's MMM interview the other day and commented that he was having a swipe at those in the media who had been calling Tom Scully a liar and questioning his integrity. Hutchy went on to name certain people in the media who had done so; "McGuire, Sheahan" and he named a couple of others who I can't recall sounding all sanctimonious about it. HUTCHY YOU IDIOT YOU ARE ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE. Only 2 weeks ago you did everything but calling Tom Scully a flat-out liar when discussing his conference earlier in the year. Garry said Tom said he has not even spoken to GWS nor has his parents pr manager. hutchy responded with "well that obviously wasn't true." What a low-life two-faced scumbag how gutter crawlers like him can get a gig has me beat. Sure thing is though you could never class what he does as journalism, his claim to fame is hiding out in rubbish bins and stalking guys to the other side of the world when they try and escape scum like him and get their lives back on track. Yeah I'll take Tom's word over ambulance chasers like him any day of the week.

Yep and although recently the place is a graveyard for us I still have some good memories there. Farmer kicking 8 against both Dockers and Eagles there in 2000 including one off the ground 40 metres out on the boundary is still a highlight.

Gerry was Gary's less celebrated, less hairy brother who dominated in the under 19's but gave it all up for a quiet life herding cattle in Kyabram.

I'm only old enough to remember from the Northey era onwards so will have a go at players from that era; Watts - Gerry Lyon in that he shows the ability to play forward, mid or back as required and his ability to handle the ball particularly in traffic is second to none LJ - The great Jakovich has the ability to do the freakiest of things and then make the simple look difficult. Also similarities in that their defensive game could be seen as a weakness Chip - Danny Hughes can match it with most key forwards in the league and has the ability to be a strong rebound from defence Stef Martin - Jimmy Stynes both were late comers to the game and had to learn on the job - this year Martin has showns signs of Stynes' ability to play almost as another midfielder by racking up disposals around the ground as well as providing first use in the ruck Wonna - Ricky Jackson little forward pocket crumber who can go missing for long periods but can bob up with a few goals a game every now and then Morton - Steven Stretch lightly built winger who seems to have the ability and run when in full flight but questions continue about his commitment to the contest Bate - The Duke Earl Spalding comparison due to both of their uncoordinated demeanour yet ability to snag goals when on song Tapscott - Balls Grinter due to both of them having a "competitive" streak Viney - Jones/McKenzie all hard as nails midfielders with questionable kicking at times Feel free to pick these apart as you see fit - I was only a little tacker in the Northey days so my memory may be cloudy. Others that also come to mind are S Febey/Grimes, Wilson/Moloney, Johnson/Bartram, Yeats/Gysberts & B Lovett/Trengove. Obviously some will be better players than their counterparts but hopefully that will lead to greater success than we had during that era.

If I were in the FD I'd be shopping him around at the end of year to get an idea of his market value. Test the waters and if there is a good offer take it.

Exactly it is also the height of hypocrisy when people have a dig at Scully for not re-signing now yet want to either sack Bailey or refuse to re-sign him until after the season. Like it or not this is how football operates these days. Are these same people giving Sylvia a hard time because he hasn't signed yet and is either trying to bend MFC over a barrel and extort money from us or leaving his options to go to GWS or another club open? This specualtion all started from BS rumours from snakes like McGuire, Sheahan, Hutchy, Ralph etc all likely being fed BS from Gubby Allen. The kid himself has stated he, his family or manager have not signed or spoken to GWS and that if he was approached the club would be the first to know. Yet some on here refuse to take this kid at his word. Show some balls and back the kid and the club in. Are we going to have to go through this every year from now on once free agency comes in?

It would still be lying he would have gone out and said he hadn't spoken with or signed anything with GWS. Technicality or not if he had corresponded via fax the meaning is the same and he would have to coolly lie his way through a packed press conference as well as directly to Stynes' face. Not to mention the fact that he said if he was approached by GWS the MFC would be the first to know about it. It may turn out that he is no more than a cold blooded mercenary; but I believe in giving people the opportunity to prove themselves especially when that person is a 19 year old kid who seems to have as much integrity and class as anyone running around in the AFL today.

For that to be true that would mean that Scully not only got up in front of the press and flat out lied to the cameras in March this year without breaking a sweat but also lied straight to Stynes, Bailey and Schwab's faces. Unless he has ice running through his veins I just can't see this being true. I also wouldn't believe a word coming out of Sheedy's mouth especially if he knew you were a Melbourne supporter. I'll continue to stick by Scully, take him at his word and cheer him on until the there is an official announcement that he has left. We as supporters owe him as much and should not be bullied by the gossiping media into questioning the integrity of a young man who has given us no reason to.