Dappa Dan

Good call on Whelan, and I applaud the selection of Green at 3... Though you'll probably cop it for that.

I'd agree with that probably... But it's early days... Jones isn't all that far behind...

Finds the pill well doesn't he? Like Godfrey only a better kick (without being prodigious) and gets far more touches. I'm a huge fan of his from watching Sandy where he was a league leader in so many ways... In the footballer/athlete debate he personifies the reason people go for the former.

Ok. Now that's the first post where we agree on NEARLY everything... Much of the problem with MFC at this stage seems to be things that can't be fixed over the period of the pre-season. ie, finances, infrastructure and culture... we were the strongest and most dominant force in football 50 years ago, and now are resigned to being a perennial basket-case, mostly due to 40-50 years of neglect. The key point here is... are we working to alleviate this? I think we are doing all we can. The MAIN thing we need is to grow lasting success in a list that can play finals, win finals and win flags... Or at least A flag... recruiting short-term solutions like a 21-22 year old Alwyn Davey is not the way, I believe... particularly when we have one already. The point you make regarding Davey is simple mate.... He tried out with the club, was given an opportunity, and was found wanting. The recruiters aren't magicians... they looked at him, pushed him, and came to the conclusion he had talent but wasn't as good, or as driven as his brother, who ONLY JUST made it into the AFL ranks himself... after all he would have been overlooked had it not been for those last two picks in Harvey and Aaron... Alwyn, at a similar age, looked NOWHERE NEAR like the player Aaron is... And keep in mind, just 'cos he's kicked a couple of goals and layed a few tackles DOESN'T mean he's ANYWHERE NEAR the player Aaron is. Aaron is now a leader at MFC, and is expected to be in the top 5 players every week.... Alwyn is a LONG way off this just yet. Aaron is verging on being a star, Alwyn has YEARS to go before he gets there... I'll wait 'til he's strung together 3 GREAT years like Aaron has before I start rating him.... Now in the end, you're right... Alwyn looks like a player... And at the price of a rookie selection, he would have been a bargain.... but it's fair to assume the recruiting department looked at Aaron... then looked at our midfield... and thought: "do we need another Aaron Davey?" "Maybe that second pocket really needs to be a marking-type Sylvia/Maric" "Maybe there's not enough room for a slightly built, crumbing-yet-brilliant forward?" "Maybe we are in more dire need of a gut-running, hard-wroking, in-and-under mid than another flashy front-running forward?" The difference beween us is that you hold them accountable for missing out on Aaron YEARS before he had proven himself worthy... I think they made the balanced and correct decision AT THE TIME... And I think had we had the selection the dons had we would have snaffled him... As fate would have it they had the opportunity to get him THAT YEAR and we didn't... It sucks, and it's a shame... but if we picked up EVERY player who came to the demons and trained... looking like a basket-case with talent... we'd be in a far worse position than we are now. That's the upshot of this... Recruit someone who looks slack... like Sampi and Alwyn who were both overweight but freakishly talented types... or recruit the less talented hard-working types like Martin, Valenti, McNamara and Cheney... In the end, I applaud MFC for going with the guys with work-ethic over the guys with talent ALONE. The dons used a second round pick for Alwyn, and at the time that's what he deserved. When he trained with us he wasn't worth the rookie pick we would have used... When it came to the superdraft he was... Like I said... if you look at the stats ONLY on the surface, you are proven right, Robbie F... but Recruiting is just not that simple... And I am "satisfied" if MFC overlooks players like Alwyn Davey if it gets players like Valenti, Jones, McLean, Bate etc etc who I believe will make up the core of a successful team... So in the end, we agree to diagree... Good discussion. I look forward to the next one, and I look forward to seeing how THIS one pans out... We agree on one thing that I reckon could see us ejoying a beer together at the footy... I'm not expecting more wins than losses... I'm expecting to see slow but substantial progress from young players. I went to the Roos/Demons game last year where Juice took MOTY. It was worth the price of admission... Watching Sylvia cut a swathe through the dogs midfield against the likes of Acker was another delight... I'll turn up for that alone...

Your conclusions are not, however. This is always going to be a matter of opinion again, but none of those players played like champions in their forst 3 years, or under 21... Sticks, if I remember correctly, played a lot of senior footy before even joining Carlton at a relatively late age. These guys were recruited for their class, size etc etc and were regarded much like a pick 1-3 in todays drafts... but again, all took a few years to own the comp... You could argue that people are saying Morton is going to be a champion, but he won't play like one for years... Do you see my point? I hope you do. In the end you'd be a fool not to. Just because they're not the next Carey doesn;t mean they're not vitally important. There's no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater... And I realise that wasn't what you were suggesting. Agreed. Champion is a term that only half-a-dozen players should deserve. For example Neitz is not an AFL champion. And chances are none of the players we've spoken about will be. I also have doubts over some things... eg Bate has some great strengths but some crippling weaknesses too... The same goes for a lot of our young guys... It would be nice to recruit a player that has all the pieces in place a la Carey... I think Juice is the closest thing we have, on paper... Fair go... Some of those guys would be excellent players in the future of ANY team. Petterd, Bate, Davey and many others would walk into any side in the coming years. Fair enough. In your opinion. As the two posts following yours suggest, it's entirely subjective. The stats you point out are GROSSLY one-sided and fail to highlight the successes we have had, as well as compare to other clubs... which you refuse to do. Hence my vehement disagreements. But we're going around in circles... Interestingly, I share your pessimism for this season, but I wrote off the demons for seasons '08-'10 afer about round 6 last year. Given the ages of our players, the state of our list, our place in the premiership clock, I'm resigned to missing the finals ina ll those years, and being under threat of the spoon in maybe one or two of those years... The difference between us is that I'ma ll too conscious of the silver lining on that cloud... agreed. :D That's true. They seem to be a little bit longer in the tooth, and hark back to the old days a lot... but the REGULAR posters on 'land are for the most part of the same age and have the same experience. And I certainly didn't mean to imply they are less passionate... That's certainly not the case...

HA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Yeah... I think that's where I'm drifting towards... The Hawks approach of getting the spine right FIRST, and having them peak at around the same 5-10 years period. Then the recruiters can take the second step of getting the inside mids like Jones and McLean which, it seems, are easier to recruit accurately from the draft... They don't seem to need a crystal ball to get them right. After that you can think about trading for a talented outside midfielder, a la Trapper.... If being on 'land has taught me anything it's that these players are a dime-a-dozen, whereas the hard ones are like hens' teeth. That's what I suspected. It's simple... I've been through this debate over and over with what must be dozens of supporters who have the same opinion as you, and no matter how many stats I and others quote, the people with the opposing view cling to it no matter what you say. You've seen the average length of my posts, if I started quoting stats we'd be here all week... Ultimately it's pointless... You do? You've only had a couple there, which have been rebutted quite convincingly by others... Just as I had guessed, you have refused to address my point AGAIN. These players COULD NEVER be champions at this age. How many players are "champions" within their first 2-4 seasons? How many KP players? Even Judd needed a year or two to start dominating, and he's the best there is. In fact most, if not ALL champion players played their best footy in their mid-to-late twenties. Give them a break for god's sake. The point is NOT that they haven't made it yet, but that they are young and must be given time, as well as help, coaching, leadership, money, confidence, facilities etc etc... You are marking them too harshly, too early... And how can you say they yet to prove ANYTHING in the football world? Bate was in our top 4 for the B&F and dominated some games last year. Dunn has shown he has pace, the physical attributes, a sensational kick: He'd get picked up if we dropped him, and Juice won MOTY as well as showing some SENSATIONAL form as a future gun CHF or FF. I'll agree that none of them have made it yet, but they have showed more tan "nothing." Maybe you're right, maybe they are not our messiah, but if that's true we need them to prove something so they're worth being trade bait... I do. None of them have matured to become the players they will be remembered as. Not even physically. Bate is well ahead of the curve, Dunn and Juice are behind, BUT THIS IS NORMAL!!!! You said above these guys are "yet to prove anything" in the football world, and now you say "they are reasonable players." What gives? Do you rate them or don't you? You should decide. EXACTLY! So why the pessimism? Now why would you say a thing like that? I've written what must be thousands of words discussing this with you. Is that not proof enough your opinion is valued? There are posters that come on here and make silly sweeping statements like "Neitz is crap, delist him." They are ignored... you have resurrected a topic that has been done to death since the rumours about CAC's departure started months ago. And you (well... WE) have turned it into a three pager.... It's called reading between the lines... I read into your posts that you are almost zealous in your pessimism. Being well structired, thoughful and clearly educated I would hope you could have the forsight NOT to string the club up by the short-and-curlies... Just over a year ago we'd won a final and were very happy with our position... I'm not happy with where we are either, but I look upon it as an exciting time where for the first time in nigh-on ten years we will have the picks in the draft to really set ourselves up in the future... (with the exception of that year we had the priority pick) We as supporters have a DUTY to stay positive in the critical time... While I applaud your thoughtfulness, I will fight pure pessimism at every turn, unless it is COMPLETELY justified. We'll get called "strawberry fields" by the geriatrics over at 'ology, but at least we can say 'land is gaining momentum...

Oh yeah... yeah.... I know

Ok... That's a bit more like it... - I HAVE given proof. Over and over... Every month someone else comes on here and decides that the generally accepted wisdom, with great researchers like Jaded, RR, Deanox and others is garbage... then someone withmore technical smarts gets on and retrieves the stats and the point is proven... Sadly, you are no exception in that when we quote the stats, you cling to your reasoning without addressing these facts in any reasonable way... What I'm trying to say is, the majority here, who've said their piece, will not change your mind no matter WHAT we say... So why bother... Also... Net is expensive where I live, so you'll just have to forgive me for not spending hours on the net. - Wasn't aware we were having a specific time-frame. Are we talking just CAC or the club here? - Go through the players again. They have all proven SOMETHING. You're right, some haven't made it yet, but all have had more than 2 seasons (or WILL have more than 2 seasns) for a reason... But I can't say I'm surprised you glossed over that point and made it all about who has "made it." It never ceases to amaze me how people write off the list the fact the good players on the list are still so young... - Geelong... F/S. Brisbane, benefitted from a HUGE amount of concessions and were disastrous for years, while recruiting the best players in the land. They bottomed out properly, we haven't. Adelaide and West Coast have had better coaches and a bucketload more money. Adeladie turned average players into guns as a habit, and have the best footy technology in the land. West Coast have a great coach, and have gotten VERY lucky with their recruiting. But tey have had their faults. They haven't had a good FF for ages, and a year-and-a-bit ago they were considered the perfect team. - Once again you miss the point. It's not about who we missed at all... We have about the same amount of duds as everyone else... but AGAIN, gloss over that fact and dig into MFC... It's noble work you're doing. - You would presume I hadn't looked at the recruiting stats wouldn't you? I've looked over them again and again and can quote most of the details of our recruiting history over the past 5-10 years off the top of my head... Don't think you're "enlightening" me to details I'm not certain of... I choose not to quote them because it would make no difference to your reasoning. I've written papers shorter than this, and you've managed to miss the point at every turn ANYWAY. - Once again... I never said we were SUPER recruiters... We've had some good ones, and some bad ones... No GREAT ones just yet... We are about breaking even, and have been up for a while... The recruiting I call "good" will come to fruition years from now, not right away. AGIAIN - There's a reason CAC was headhunted... He recruited some gems from out of NOWHERE... His great faults were his KP recruitment and "Star" recruitment which leave something to be desired... On the first point, I think people are right. We're still relying on Neitz and White as our big boys and are still struglling for a KP back. So why do you think I'm calling them "super." We are weak in that area. On the STAR player point, again I agree somewhat, but I would say this... McLean playing for the Bombers or Pies would be considered a star... NO demon will be considered a star until we have a bigger presence in the AFL, media, and among the commentators. The Bulldogs suffer in the same way. Brad Johnson is a good example. It took him til he was past 250 games to get noticed. The Dogs just aren't "sexy" enough. I think I'm done with this debate. Our recruiting hasnt been perfect, but it has had hughlights. We've been middle of the road in the last 10 years in the regard, and as a result our ladder results have been... well... middle of the road. When we bottom out, and in a year or two from now when Bailey has the list he wants in one place, we'll start to climb again. This is modern recruiting, mate. And before you take another swing at me... Try to get rid of the idea that I'm "SATISFIED" with what we're like at the moment. I'm hurting like everyone else. I am disagreeing with YOU... ButI continue to support the direction the club is taking. I don't expect perfection like the so-called "experts" on this site, and as such I am willing to wear a few Molans, Rogers and Smiths... If we get many more, I'll join your merry brigade, but for now I think where we are is a reflection of the decisions DB has made for our future, our list turnover, our coach change-over and a severe lack of funds... not a reflection of disastrous recruiting... If you quote me as thinking our recruitment is "super" again or that I am happy with where we stand, I'll know you've not bothered to read my post. I have another point for you to consider though. I was thinking about this last night. I feel our recruitment is flawed in it's conception in one important way. Let's assume that KP players take longer to develop, let's say 3 years at a minimum. Further, let's assume these players are harder to recruit as they are so young and under-developed, and predcition plays a bigger part in the success of a recruiter... Wouldn't it make sense then to use both your high picks AND your speculative picks to recruit good quality talls a few seasons in a row... and THEN take on the problem of addressing the smaller players. We have a history of our smaller blokes making nearly immediate impact on the team... Jones, McLean, Petterd to name a few... By the time our talls are in their prime (25-30) these guys will be nearing the end of their careers... Now I know we got Bate and Dunn, as well as Juice as a speculative pick all in one year... But Dunn has looked shaky as a KP player, and Juice is still a work in progress... Basically I'm saying the Hawthorn model is what we should have gone for. Get the Rougheads and Franklins and a few others... give it five or so years and wait for ONE of them to become a star. Dunstall has gone on the record as saying that around the time these two players were picked up, the general consensus was that there were no quality KP players coming through the system, so the Hawks would have a "monopoly." I think there's sme truth to this. Thoughts?

So write that then!!! Anyone reading the title would read it as you saying Green is in his last season.... Which is a plainly stupid prediction. Like I said, if we delisted him, he'd get picked up within the first 3 picks in the PS draft. Maybe if you said "Play well or trade him" we could take you a bit more seriously. Don't presume to comment on "people like me." What have I written that shows you I've SETTLED for Green? Why would I be calling for him to be traded if I liked him as a player? I don't believe he's reached his full potential, but I'm not going to string him up for it... While we're at it, I'm going to generalise about people like you... We all know the kind... The ones that come on and take pot-shots at players they believe aren't trying hard enough with little or no understanding of what it takes to be an AFL player... Let alone a good one like Green... You would do well to remember that what we do on 'Land is at best, guesswork. You'll find most people understand this and don't make daft, sweeping predictions like yours. "People like you" were sucked in by his dazzling left boot and that final he played about a hundred years ago. Green is a good, level-headed, athletic-type player. He was probably never going to be a star. Deal with it. He could improve in a few areas, but our list, as it is, would struggle that much more if we dropped him. We've got about 5 players in their footballing prime, which is a TERRIBLE position to be in coming in to a season. Brad's going to be knocked from pillar to post this season, as he's going to be targeted and he's going to be pretty much on his own as a mature-bodied midfielder... And "People like you" will come on here and slam him, calling for his head, as if the 20-30 possessions he gets aren't worked for hard enough... Jesus. Garbage. If we run yet another teenager through the middle, he'll get smashed and probably injured. We need our 100+ gamers to play good solid football to show the kids how it's done. The maturity of our midfield is almost non-existent, and the idea that running a team of 21 year olds is a sound strategy is bollocks. They need to be LED. To be shown how it's done, and build on their footy education... DB can only do so much. Now I would say Green is just about the last player I'd want leading them (the players agree with me here, evidently) but he's better than putting in a 19 year old Weetra, or an 18 year old Morton... As Mick Malthouse said, playing a player too early can hinder their development by up to 2 years... Besides guys like JMac, Bruce and a cuople of others, Green is as good as we had to call upon at the end of last season. What were we supposed to do. Promote Godfrey or WHeatley to the leadership group? The list sucks. This is not Green's fault. Watch some footy, for God's sake. The only point I agree with is that he should play for his career... but this is true of every player ALL the time. How do you know he isn't though? And take a look at him properly. He's a good player. Will never be great, but he's not average... Actually he's anything but... I think we could both agree that he would struggle a lot more in, say, Geelong's GF side last year. I think he'd probably be in their LAST 11 picked, not their first... But I reckon he would have played. Probably would have played well without the extra attention. I'm going to comment on this in another thread... I think you're absolutely right. But I am curious about our recruiting strategy. If KP players take so long to develop, it would make sense to recruit your spine FIRST then recruit your midfielders around them AFTERWARDS. As it is, McLean and his 23 and under brigade will play their best footy, inb their mid-twenties, while the spine is still in development. WHen they come good, McLean will be in his late 20s...

Agree with that. I don't care that Frawley can play FB AND the wing... It's a lovely thing for the coach, but if no-one can OWN one of those positions regularly (15-20 rounds a year, plus good finals) then it's useless, as you need to find someone who can... If versatility won flags, then Geelong would be full of Cameron Bruces...

There has been talk that Barts was completing whole sessions at training recently. I'll believe it when I see it, but I will say this. He was supposed to be out for the count at the start of last year, and I went and saw him play for Sandy of basically NO training and fitness base, and he looked sensational. I couldn't help but notice how quickly and effectively he returned fro injury... I hope it's a knack of his, not a one-off...

Hang on. o he's suspended for H&A games? Not NAB cup games?

Look. You've posted a dozen times and listed too many things, ad I couldn't be bothered bringing up all of them... But in a nutshell... you are dissatisfied with the recruitment of A. Davey the second, and you are also dissatisfied with our recruiting as a whole. The only thing I agree on is that we are each entitled to our opinions. Nothing you've written here is news to any of us, and nothing you've said has made me change my mind about our recruiting over recent years. As far as I'm concerned we had a good period there where we made finals more often than not. We had a few mistakes, like Molan and Rogers, and a few trades that we were forced into that in retrospect hurt us a bit. ANd yet you say things like this... So how are we supposed to take seriously any statement if you blind yourself to the simple facts. Recruitment is something that can easily be compared. If it wasn;t, guys like Craig Cameron wouldn't have been head-hunted. As I said, MFC has made a few blues in recruitment. But so has EVERY club... Here's some items not discussed that are far too important to simply overlook in the way you seem to be doing so stubbornly: - You're unwilling to mention successes such as Robertson, McDonald, Petterd, Bartram, Newton, Bate, Jones, Davey, McLean and Rivers. And before you start picking them apart individually, consider that each one has proven themselves to be useful already, and to have a future in the AFL. Some may not be stars but one thing they are not are players who disappear without playing games at all... And all have proven themselves to have been bargains in their places... eg Bate at 14 could have gone top 3 the next year, Petterd was one of the 10 best performed first year players last year despite being taken in the second round. Personally I'm thrilled with Jones at 14... - You haven't mentioned the fact that we have been up for a while, and have a number of veterans who have enjoyed solid careers, who in recent years have occupied spots on the team, denying younger guys the opportunity to be blooded. In other words, we were up, now we're down... Courtesy of the fact that our prime players are too young to own the comp just yet, but are quality nonetheless. The Hawks did it, ditto the Lions, and the Blues have recruited some rippers after years of being down... - You can't possibly expect credibility when you refuse to compare our recruiting to other clubs. Other clubs went for guys like Tenace and Ray who aren't guns... They all made mistakes, but you won't grade on a curve... Now I'm the first to admit we made mistakes... Sylvia hasn't returned our faith, but that has been largely due to injury... Bell is still yet to earn his first round rating... Frawley has a long way to go... Chris Johnson is a massive let-down... But for every stuff-up there are a couple of good calls... - DB can deny it all he likes. We are rebuilding. He needed to offload about 12 players last year, but doing that would usher in greater disaster than the club can withstand at the moment. We could only select about 6 or 7 players with our picks, as well as a few rookies, so players who probably should have gone had to stay... I'm talking about Holland, Jamar, Cj can probably consider himself lucky, Ditto Warnock.... But for now there were simply more pressing delistings to be done... The trouble is we needed to years to offload the dead wood left by Daniher. In the end I could go on and on submitting facts to justify my arguement, listening to your points and either agreeing and disproving them one by one... When you boil it down, I'm not entirely satisfied with our recruiting, but am nearly there. Our lack of success is a shame, but I honestly believe we are a victim of our own mediocrity. The Hawks have suffered more than us in recent years, and they are now seeing their pain bear fruit with an extremely deep list. This is just the way of things. We may be in for a rough few years, but the importat thing is we are heading in the right direction... In a few years these players WHO ARE QUALITY, but can't be expected to win games off their own boot just yet, will mature and hit their straps all at the same time, and we will have something to be excited about... But hey, if it makes you feel better to look at the glass half empty, more power to you.

Because he's not the same type of player as Davey. Neither is Maric. It's not a simple case of recruiting a small forward. The Daveys are a specific kind of player... Davey relies on his out-and-out brilliance because he's just not big enough to be an AFL player on paper WITHOUT his brilliance. We've seen this in finals, where his physicality becoms a liability. Wonaemerri is similar in that he really is tiny. Hence my point about "why recruit Wonaemerri." Like I said... And others have said.... Alwyn, in the year he came to us as a rookie, was like Aaron, only without confidence, pace, skill, and with a bit of extra baggage. He just wasn't as good. In the year that presumably some coach got in his ear and inspired him, EVERYONE had seen him on foxtel playing in the SANFL and rated him as a HUGE chance to get picked up even in a superdraft year. You asked your question, and we answered it thus... the question is not why didn't we take him for nothing, that's been answered. The question is why didn't we take him when it was apparent he was a quality player? The answer is there were other players rated more highly, that I STILL rate more highly. Your point about the fact that the recruiters should have been able to tell he was a good player is interesting, but in the end, they could just as easily have been criticised for picking him up, particularly if he didn't play any good footy in his forst two years. At the time Gianfagna had confidence and perhaps a more sound football background. It was probably the smart choice... I reckon I would have done the same thing.

The Heather Mills' toes line... One of the more arbitrary things I've read on 'land... and I've read plenty fro Y_M, so that's saying somthing... Good article...

Then why recruiet Wonnaemerri?!!!

Like everyone else said, the second Davey's brilliance wasn't apparent until the season just before he got drafted. Unlike Aaron who worked his arse off from day one, Alwyn took a little while to get serious and lose his puppy fat. From my faded recollection it was a work-ethic question when they didn't take him. They're basically the same player... The only reason Alwyn is creating a bit of a stir is because he plays for Essendon. That's it... His start to his career was a long LONG way away from being as compelling as Aaron's. Aaron has accomplished more, and does more damage on a far more regular basis... Personally, I think it's wise to look at him like any other player. If another club gets lucky and picks up a good rookie who plays 100-200 games, then good luck to them. We've had our fair share too... In retrospect I recon once he'd PROVEN he had the work ethic, anyone would have taken him below about pick 30 or 40... including us. But to get him before the Dons that year we would have missed out on Frawley or Petterd... Which would be NUTS. So we got Aaron for basically nothing. And he's verging on a star. Would walk onto any list. Alwyn was taken for a second round pick... And he's a mature player (more or less). As far as I'm concerned we're still way out in front in the Davey debate... And don't let anyone tell you any different.

Also VERY easy to find the negative... This time last year we played the Toigs in the NAB cup and beat them. This year we didn't...

Nicely done Mousey... You are TOTALLY fishing for compliments... Thus: ... Ahem... ... Good on you mate... This, I reckon, is what maes me LOVE places like demonland... you can get an honest message out there, and have supporters have a more educated group mentality... Mousey, you sound like the only reason you're joining now is cos you couldn't before, so while you're not EXACTLY what I'm talking about, my point still stands. I salute you... and want to see you make a thread in 20 years fishing for us to congratulate you for sticking with us that long...

Stupidest thread title this year... If Green did a knee and missed most of the season, he would still be playing in the AFL next year. He may not be a star, but he's a proven performer with good strengths that could fit well into a more developed side. Green isn't playing for his career at all...

1 - Winning premierships.... fairly. 2 - Winning finals. 3 - Winning games. 4 - Being tuff...

Feels good though, doesn't it... Love the pain...

Valenti? Surely his hands were solid? He certainly had plenty in the "H" column...

Wow... CHeey, McNamara, Morton, Grimes AND Maric all within his top 44... Interesting where he placed Morton (did he get popular late in the piece?) and McNamara...