old55

We've been short on midfield class but hopefully we've picked some up recently with Morton, Grimes, Blease, Strauss, maybe Bennell - who knows. We need a bit more coming thru and some early picks next year too would be nice. Together with McLean who is class if he can get fit and some of the decent players we have like Jones, Moloney and Petterd hopefully we have the makings of a strong midfield. Heaven help us if we don't because it's going to be a long tough period thru the GC draft concession years. I think the sentiments in the thread title are close to the mark.

I think our list is starting to take some shape and there's plenty to look forward to and be optimistic about - with current stocks in 4-5 years we could have a 22 that has come thru together: B: Frawley Garland Warnock Rivers Martin Strauss C: Morton Moloney Blease Spencer Grimes McLean F: Davey Watts Bate Sylvia Newton Maric I: Johnson Jones Petterd Dunn One more cycle of early picks would be nice.

Clearly Allen Jakovich heads the list.

We're harsh on our own because we know them too well. Todd Viney was at least as good as Scott Thompson and I'd wouldn't call Todd a star. We've had briefly burning stars since Flower but they haven't peformed on a consistent basis for one reason or another - Brian Wilson in his Brownlow year, Schwarz in 94, even Stynes in 91 if you like that kind of play. Consistent elite performance is probably part of the definition of star. Don't get me wrong tho, Scott Thompson or Brad Sewell would be very nice to have at our club right now.

Rucks do make a difference if you get dominated and the opposition gets sufficient taps to advantage. I think you can't afford weak rucks, but you don't need dominant rucks. IIRC in the close GF Keating had to ruck alone, admittedly against not much opposition, maybe there's a link there. IMO he deserved the NSM in 2003 and was a key difference, altho stoppage tactics were key also, he punched the ball into space clear of the Pies mids who were excellent in close - Lica was at his prime. That was the Pies key, their rucks we're weak but their contested ball winning close to the stoppage was excellent, in 2003 the Lions short-circuited this with Keating smashing the ball forward at every opportunity and Fraser couldn't stop him doing it. BTW Spencer is getting talked up and he sounds like a better version of Jamar - perhaps like Keating - he doesn't sound like he'll make much impact around the ground. I'm OK with that but the enthusiasm for him seems a bit inconsistent with the "hitouts don't matter, it's around the ground impact" theory. Maybe a Jamar/PJ combo gives us maximum flexibilty and if Spencer is a better Jamar then hey! "Secondary stoppage" maybe a new idea/term at centre bounces but the Swans have specialised in this for years at all other stoppages. If they can't win the clearance they force another stoppage until they do win - that's been their plan A.

I'm still hopeful on McLean. I think he's possible elite. As you say - it depends on if he can get his body right . I think he has delivered elite quality e.g St.Kilda final, just not on a consistent basis yet because of injury. If he plays 20 games this year he'll win the Bluey and if we start to win games in the next few years he'll give the Brownlow a big shake. IMO he's still most likely on our list to be elite simply on exposed AFL form. I reckon your McLean description fits Jonesy and I expect nothing less from him.

Keating was important to the Lions flags. In 2001 (with McDonald) and particularly in 2003 (with Charman) he dominated the ruck and that reinforces Phoenix's coment where Alessio-Barnes and then poor Josh Fraser virtually one-out were unable to make an even contest. In 2002, in the close one against Collingwood he had to ruck all day by himself becasue McDonald was injured, but he was still able to defeat McKee and Rocca - not exactly Lade and Brogan. Collingwood's weak rucks really helped Brisbane. In 2004 Lade and Brogan at least broke even with Keating and McLaren who was a weak link in the contest. If you alow a ruck combination to dominate it can have devastating effects in big games. It's important to provide a consistent contest in the ruck and that means having two competent ruckmen - you cannot afford weak rucks. Keating was a better version of Jamar - he had a total of 13 kicks and only 27 possessions in 4 GFs. A player like Jamar has the ability to negate Keating's ruck dominance if he has a solid partner and rucking becomes a nil-all draw. It's about application of limited resources - I'd rather force a nil-all draw in the ruck and concentrate on winning the other areas which have more impact.

I really like Bartram but his kicking is a worry deep in the backline and if he can't train/run hard and long on his knee (which I read is bone-on-bone) then he loses one of his attributes for run-with and he may struggle for a role. The coaches clearly like him with his high finish in the B&F last year and he was named as one of this preseason's highlights in something I read - so hopefully it will pan out for him.

It would be worth trying Bell as a run-with in the midfield if he's over his OP problems. He has pace and strength and has done some good stopping jobs in the backline but further upfield his tendency to panic a bit wont be exposed so much. Bartram is a very good run-with but I reckon he may struggle to run out games after his knee problems. Dunn I think offers more as a defensive forward on the attacking half-back e.g. Hodge.

The critical ruck contests are likely to be deep inside the 50 with no genuine ruckman contesting them. The result of a tap to advantage here is likely to be a goal. Forwards who can ruck a bit will increase their value. And it will be crucial to have tall backs who can at least nullify the tap to advantage.

We have 19 players on our list who were 1st or 2nd round draft picks or equivalent (trades for *) and most of them are young and have plenty of scope for development and improvement. Jones, McLean, Bate, Frawley, Morton, Johnson*, Sylvia, Dunn, Petterd, Grimes, Green, Maric, Bell, Moloney*, Rivers, Wheatley, Watts, Blease, Strauss B: Petterd Frawley Wheatley Strauss Rivers Grimes C: Morton Moloney Blease Johnson McLean Jones F: Sylvia Watts Dunn Green Bate Maric I: Bell I realise that's not a guarantee of quality but it's likely that most of them can play and we've got a few late and rookie pick players who are OK.

We haven't exactly been destination of choice for players moving clubs - maybe 3 years was necessary to get him across the line. The question mark remains about the assessment of his capabilities but the contract term is not a problem from my point of view - especially if he's not on top dollar. Maybe the final dice hasn't been rolled on his career, just as the new centre bounce rules hurt White, the 4 boundary umpires might help Meesen get to the contest later in the match with his extra endurance and be the only ruckman at that contest and therefore win more effective hitouts. Altho it's possible speed may be the deciding factor and even tho he's still running, he still can't make the contest - and no ruckmen can. If this IS the case then it adds another nail to Phoenix's importance of ruckmen coffin.

I think he can play a defensive role in the forward line on the attacking half-back e.g. Hodge. He has good enough skills to hurt also.

I am surprised Richmond didn't rookie Art. I think the fact that Ben Cousins wasn't mentioned at his trial worked against him. That he doesn't have an association with Ben in a criminal or any other sense marked him, unfairly, as a small time player not ready for the rigours of the AFL. He might be a good fit down at TBO with the Saints 2s.

The argument isn't about what White did, it's about whether we could've traded him to our advantage at that time. There was enough uproar when we (correctly traded) Woey, there was no way we were going trade our reigning B&F in preference to Jolly unless there was a huge advantage ... Sydney - that's who we traded Jolly to!!!! Essendon - Already had Hille and they finished 2 places behind Sydney so the "huge advantage" would've been 2 picks earlier Collingwood - already had Josh Fraser do you really think they would've traded their 1st round pick for White? Geelong - traded for Brad Ottens that year!

Exactly who were we going to trade White to at the end of 2004?

FFS not this again - clubs trade for mature ruckmen when they think they are a chance to win the flag, therefore by definition they don't trade top 10 picks and they don't trade good players. There is no way we could've got a better deal for White than we did for Jolly. Who exactly were we going to trade White to? Campbell was 25 and Taylor was 24, Spencer is the same age as Renouf was.

Dunno, did you think Campbell, Taylor and Renouf would at the start of 2007. BTW "yes" is lying. It's great! One day after our list is finalised for 2009 the thread evolves to who we're going to delist or trade - how about we wait 9 months or so?

The fact remains that we've taken a speculative tall with our first available pick - how many would be enough for you? How about we wait until Sibosado wins the Coleman at Freo before we hang, draw and quarter BP? BP said we targetted inside mids at the ND but missed out on Redden at 35, the strategy to pick McKenzie and Healey has been consistent.

I gotta agree with the man "that's a sex machine to all the chicks". Mo's post is a new zenith of crazy. I guessing you've got a Ph.D in Hindsight. Want someone taller or more specualtive than Jurrah?

Assuming Cousins believes he's in a position to be paid more than say Gourdis - I think his market value is low on the demand side.

Some good analysis here relating to the impact of the age change in 2009: http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/showthread.php?t=525306

I'm a McLean fan and would go for him in 2009. But it's understandable if his injuries, overseas escapades and burn-outs make it difficult for 2009. It's unseemly to use Bruce or Green as seat warmers - what's gonna happen when we need McLean to leap-frog them in 2010? So if it can't be McLean I'd go for Junior as captain with McLean, Green and Bruce as deputies. It's pretty likely Junior wont play 22 games so the other 3 will get a chance and I think the cream will rise.

FMD, only a crook or a moron could think what Richmond is proposing is reasonable. It''ll probably be approved by the AFL ...

Agree, I'm completely against this - it make no sense at all, there's already a rule in place to deal with this situation - they can put Polak on the long term injury list and promote a rookie.