FlashInThePan

Carlton have announced the delisting of:

1. Jack Newnes
2. Oscar McDonald
3. Luke Parks

https://www.sen.com.au/news/2022/08/26/carlton-announces-trio-of-delistings/

I just don’t think there is anything worth worrying about here. We have controlled everything we can control:

- positive environment

- teammates and friends that clearly love and care for him

- mentor to help him be the best he can be

- fitness staff helping him get to elite fitness

- a solid offer and likely more in the future

- a successful team with a wide open premiership window

Once you have controlled all that’s in your hands, all you can do is let it play out. If he still wants to leave we are clearly already working in plan b. So be it.

1 hour ago, CYB said:

People will be people. This is a place where all people should feel welcome to talk about the Dees. 

The fact that we have threads like these, believe it or not, is marginalising the folks that have a different perspective to the OP. I personally don’t understand nor relate to people who continually see the upside against all odds, but I don’t go out of my way to make threads about the ‘Cool Aid Corner’ or ‘Obnoxiously Optimistic’. 

There are forum rules and mods to ensure disrespectful and distasteful chatter is moderated and punished accordingly. Anything beyond that is fair game so if you don’t like it, facepalm the post, ignore the poster and move on. 

You pick a strange topic to take up arms against in the name of marginalisation. There are in fact multiple threads deriding supporters who don’t turn up often enough or don’t make enough noise to satisfy the desires of some forum posters. But you find it marginalising when someone calls out how it makes them feel to wade through post after post of negativity? Righto

It’s not about facts, it’s about attitude. Sure, there are things we need to fix but we can discuss them without the ridiculous doom and gloom that some people feel compelled to inflict on others, under the guise of knowing more than everyone else what it takes to be a premiership team.

This place can be really hard to be around with people constantly deriding and talking down the players and the team. We are supposed to be supporters, the key to the appropriate behaviour is in the name. I don’t have a huge number of Dees supporters in my life and I love being able to talk details with others who share my passion. I had hoped that demonland could be a place for that but have been finding it increasingly hard to log on and listen to the whining and mean spirited comments.

Maybe this rubbish was appropriate around the Neeld years but Jesus, we are 2nd on the ladder defending our premiership. What the actual F does it take to please people???

4 hours ago, cantstandyasam said:

Who's the forward coach, is it Stafford? He was a ruckman and not the best kick from memory.

I seem to recall this comment has been made before. Someone mentioned on that thread that Stafford actually had a very good goal kicking record and accuracy rating. I don’t recall which thread though

Wow, I really struggle to understand why people want us to be boring and generic. Let's just roll out another vanilla cliche about taking one game at a time. Langdon did nothing more than put a little bit of chilli sauce on an otherwise pretty much generic interview out of the MelbournFC marketing handbook.

Personally, I loved it. Let's put a bit more personality in this playing group's public persona. We don't need to try and hide in plain sight anymore, we are the reigning premiers. We are allowed to have a few opinions and yes, we need to back them up with actions. Let's just go ahead and do that! If Collingwood getting a bit agro intimidates us we are hardly going to be flag contenders. We are ready for finals football and all that means, bring the heat, we welcome it! 

Do we really want to try and fly under the radar for fear that we might rile up our opponent? And just to be clear, there was nothing arrogant or offensive in what Langers said, there was plenty of respect for what they can do, just a recognition that they have limits and we are ready to exploit them.

TBH I love this kind of sass, Ed Langdon raising the stakes for tomorrow night

https://www.foxsports.com.au/afl/teams/melbourne-demons/afl-news-2022-melbourne-vs-collingwood-ed-langdon-interview-comments-on-pies-one-trick-pony/news-story/09bdd55760c054859ad423bcf5c2e95a

23 minutes ago, von said:

Surely there’s room for that in a world that is currently void of it. A bit of dry amongst the dribble. I think there’s a lot of football fans crying out for it. 

There is, but not on TV. TV has never been a medium that promoted deep intellectual discussion. David King and Leigh Montagna are about as deep as it gets unfortunately. Their big 4 stats are about the most detailed actual data that you are likely to see on the box. 😔

 There are plenty of interesting online sites like stats insider. If you really love data  and analysis, TV is a dead end.

10 hours ago, DubDee said:

Thanks for replying 

so maybe AFL grounds should have standard dimensions? Obviously if their home ground has a certain characteristic they would play a style to suit it. 

problem is for them, they don’t play finals on it 

Yes, this is the dominant narrative. They are the Home & Away kings due in large part to the home ground advantage. They are parennial finals losers due to the same advantage. You might say that their advantage has killed any drive to properly regenerate the list and develop a brand that stands up in finals.

The Jury is still out for me on the above. My gut feeling is that they will choke again on the finals and that they have peaked way too early. But who knows, they have significantly changed a few things this year, maybe they will get a different result in finals. Personally I will never forget 186 and I just want to beat them every chance we get. I just recognise that it is totally irrational.

46 minutes ago, DubDee said:

How is it any better than the Gabba or Spotless?  

*Just wondering…not trying to start an argument 

I think someone posted more details earlier in the thread. It is substantially skinnier than any other ground (116m) and very long (170m) with strangely shallow pockets. It really favours their zone defence, and should actually assist ours I would have thought. Where it really killed us last time is that it is a lot easier to congest the exit from defence. 
 

i actually think they played us super well in the last game. The ground did give them some assistance but they legitimately outplayed us.

edit: typo

54 minutes ago, CYB said:

I think there is element of loading that has effected our performance of late but our pressure has been down all year - even at the start. ‘playing in 2nd gear’ , ‘just getting it done’, ‘winning ugly’ we’re being dished out in the first 10 rounds. The lack of pressure is obviously exacerbated by our loading program.

I always thought the lack of pressure  was by design .   There is no need to smash teams early in the year - it’s a very long season. The wins are the important outcome and we relied on system to get this done. However 18th in pressure when our system relies on it wasn’t what I expected and I think the complacency has crept into the game.

The focus on ruthlessness this week was to remind ourselves of what it takes to win in Sept, knowing that you cant just switch it on like a light switch - you need to build into it. 

This is what I hate about the media, leading with misleading stats. We were not 18th for pressure in the first 10 rounds. I can’t remember the exact window they used but it was, I’m sorry to say it, a tight window around the peak of our loading phase.

 We have never been waiting to flick a magic switch. We have been driving hard, like running up a hill with a heavy backpack. Constantly ignoring the backpack and telling ourselves to work harder, be more ruthless, dig  deep and work for each other. This week we just dropped the back pack.

 Let’s just say, all of a sudden getting to the contest to apply pressure just got a lot easier.

10 minutes ago, Lord Nev said:

Exactly.

Personally I believe in the loading and am on record about it, but to think that's the only thing happening at the club and to think they all got together and said 'let's troll the media by saying "ruthless" lots this week' is one of the silliest things I've read on Demonland.

It’s not trolling, it is reinforcing the message. Read my post above

I just want to provide a slightly alternative view to what you have been hearing from the club in the last week or so.

 The way to maximise the result of physical stress is to improve your mental application. Loading and the effect of fatigue is not overcome only with your body, you largely overcome it with your mind - mental toughness. If you sit around telling your players that everything is going to be fine when we drop the loads, you kill better than half the benefit of loading. The way to maximise the benefit is to get players to focus on and improve the things that they can control even while they are desperately fatigued.

 Because of this, it is absolutely to the clubs advantage to apply the loads and then talk only about ruthlessness, selflessness and application. This is getting the players to focus on what they can control. If they do that, not only do they increase their physical endurance, they increase their mental endurance at the same time.

So what we’re are hearing from the players and the coaches is not a lie, it is what they need to believe to get the maximum benefit from the loading. 

16 minutes ago, Action Jackson said:

If he does feel a bit disgruntled at not playing more midfield time - which I'm not saying he definitely is, just surmising. I don't really understand why we can't include him in some of the midfield rotations?

It's not like our midfield are unstoppable at the moment. We were beaten in clearances by 14 on the weekend.

Ummm, I don't suppose you have watched the 3rd quarter of last years Grand Final?

Or maybe you could just look at some of the efforts last week. When this midfield group is on they are absolutely unstoppable. I have never seen a midfield able to explode out the front of a centre bounce the way these guys are able to. No group can maintain that effectiveness all game every game but Trac, Clarrie, Viney and Max regularly turn it on.

I don't think we rely on secrets to win, we rely on executing our game plan so well that other teams can't win regardless. In the case of the down the line kick, this has been done to death. It is a high percentage, low risk play. It only fails for us when we are unable to get the players positioned well at the fall of the ball if the mark fails. It beggars belief that people think that Goody and co don't know other teams know what we are going to do on kick out. They know, the strategy works anyway - most of the time. i won't be surprised if we see some different exit strategies if we get desperate during finals but I don't expect to see us telegraphing that sort of change now.

With respect to the centre bounce, they can either lag off, play a sweeper and control the outer ring or they can shark aggressively and compete in the inner ring, they can't do both. We have strategies for breaking down both those tactics, they very often involve driving hard with the legs and changing direction via handball. I also think people underestimate just how good Max is at directing the tap.

I was really impressed with what the doggies did with the low flat passes into the forward 50. We will definitely take a look at that, more pressure on the ball carrier will reduce that but I think it is an effective tactic when executed well. I think we could improve our own forward 50 entries using it.

44 minutes ago, Lucifers Hero said:

Maybe:

• freo won because we had a heap of players covering covid absentees and the newbies made cohesiveness harder.  May out early and Freo exploited all that in the second half.
• Sydney and Geelong won because they used different tactics that challenged us.  As Goodwin has said clubs always try new things and we learn from them.
• bulldogs won because we were missing most of our fwd line and key interceptor, Lever.
• Coll won because we had only half our backline.

They as the better teams also exploited our lack of a settled forward line.

Our game relies heavily on defence.  In our losses to top 8 sides only in the Geelong game did we have all of May, Lever, Petty, Salem.  So maybe their and other key player abscences have been significant.

I fully believe we and other clubs use a loading program.  And that there are various loading programs/models available.  Not all clubs will use the same program/model altho in principle they have loading and tapering phase(s).  I just get frustrated with the ardent followers on here when they don't really acknowledge the above facts in our losses, in particular other club's coaching tactics.  Which by the way doesn't mean 'we have been found out'.  It simply means that on the day what they did worked better than what we did.  They just say 'other factors' affect results.  Then happily promote loading in our wins/losses without really knowing which loading program is being followed or when the loading and tapering phases are timed nor how that timing relates to our losses, except guesswork.

So when we lose the first thing that comes up is 'loading'.  And as for a 'loading end' party, please.

And some loading proponents have started talking about how 'lucky' we were last year...

I haven't heard anyone in the loading periodisation discussions suggest any such thing. Loading only explains our performance vs our best performance. It has nothing to do with whether our game plan stacks up or whether other teams have found a way to combat our plan(s). I'm only taking this on because it seems to pop up again and again. I think I speak for all people who have posted in support of this theory/approach. It is only A factor not the only factor. It can explain our cyclic drop off in intensity and leads us to hope that when the pointy end of the season comes we will not see that drop off. There are so many other factors also at play - injuries, growth of other teams, changes/new strategies we have not seen before, in game tactics and changes. Nobody is denying any of these things.

1 hour ago, 1964_2 said:

Interesting :- Pies kicked the last 2 before half time also. 

Last night the commentators kept complimenting us for quickly kicking a goal in response to many dogs goal :- It did leave me thinking, why do we have to wait for a dogs goal, to put up our best effort 

Well, we need the centre square bounce to explode out of. We only get the opportunity to execute that play when a goal has been kicked. 

23 hours ago, loges said:

Only what they've quoted on a couple of the footy shows.

Yeah, David King and Leigh Montagna have their 4 key stats that they always carry on about. It is about how hard teams defend and attack with and without the ball. I forget the actual details, my eyes have started to glaze over when they roll them out to support any given argument they are currently running. Reality is a little mor nuanced than that but simplified stats make for great news ;)

Wow, what a bunch of sad sacks. Does anyone recall that we are the reigning premiers and second on the ladder? And as far as I can tell, the game against Geelong was the only game where our brand wasn’t on show for a fair whack of the game this year.

I’m not a fan of the post 2018 milkshake but I understand the selection. If he brings his a-game he could really clean up our final kick into the forward arc. He will undoubtedly play the high half forward role freeing up Sparrow and Nibbler to do extra rotations into the midfield.

10 minutes ago, Redleg said:

I thought we were discussing Chandler.

Who’s on first?

3 hours ago, daisycutter said:

"a known racist"   make one racist comment, apologise, take medicine but branded for life....and you reckon tex is the bigot

I’m Sorry? You’re calling me a bigot for identifying someone who has racially abused another player? Who was also captain of the club through the camp that offended the indigenous players and pretty well killed the club culture, certainly killed the coach.

And in what way did he willingly take his medicine? He was made to apologise and do community service so he could get back to playing and making money.

1 hour ago, deebunked said:

Holy moly , there are some very bitter thin skinned people on this forum. I was simply saying Walker should be looked at as  a possibility, thats all.   Pickett along with Spargo and ANB have struggled. We need to look at all options not jusy Walker. We lack a KPF  if we're  going b2b.

geez.calm down.

No, what you said was ‘we only value and care for indigenous players when they are playing amazing footy. Their feelings are otherwise irrelevant and they should just suck it up while we induct a known racist to get the job done’

 You may need to read your post, I have paraphrased so you can see what you did more clearly.

We had almost equal turnovers, and if you look at the heatmap you’ll see they happened predominately in the same place. No prizes for guessing that this was the left side, coming out of defence just short of the true wing.

 Our actual problem was getting smashed in clearance (both centre and stoppage). Watching the game I thought we got smashed in contested possession as well but looking at the stats we were actually +12 for the game. That really surprised me.

8 hours ago, DemonWA said:

This thread is hilarious. Never seen so many people trying to wish away poor form in one place. 

I think like most dees supporters I would love for us to be playing well and winning. ‘Poor form’ isn’t a sensible term for making sense of what we see though. It is just catch phrase, it has components that you can talk about though. It is made up of strategy, skill, fitness and psychological state.

 This thread is discussing the fitness component. I think it is a critical element for understanding what we are seeing. But every one of those elements I have noted effects the others.

 For simplicity sake let’s just say that a skilled footballer doesn’t become less skilled over a season. Although game to game there are certainly micro strategy tweaks, overall we are playing the same strategy that we were playing at the beginning of the year (and last year). That leaves fitness and psychology as our 2 possible variables that are affecting the outcome of games for us. Talking about team psychology feels like a waste of time since we don’t know any of the players well enough to do anything but guess their mental state, arousal levels,etc.

 There is one other significant factor but for the purposes of discussion on the thread topic we ignore it. That is the opposition. How we match up against a given opponent tends to get done to death in post match threads (tbh with precious little insight but plenty of vitriol and passion).

 Those who are pro the idea of periodisation and scaled training loads are basically saying that this is the strongest variable factor during the year on our form. Interestingly fatigue plays into all 4 factors in form - tired player’s skills degrade, tired player’s tend to drop their heads, tired player’s are less laser focused on strategy execution.