stevethemanjordan

You're my favourite person.

Kelly is a gun. But Kelly won't stop our leaky defence. Hibberd has a difficult enough time doing that atm.

Overall, your post misses some really important details and points in regards to this argument. The first point I would bring to light is the significance of draft positions and the specific attributes that all those players you've mentioned either had or didn't have coming into the AFL system. Rance went at pick #18, Richards went at pick #27 and Jones at #32 in their draft years respectively. Frost and McGovern were both rookie picks. Frost was a rookie because of his obvious football-skill specific limitations whereas McGovern was simply the opposite. The knock was on his athletic and physiological capabilities but he had football smarts and was a natural footballer. His fundamentals were sound. Frost was at a disadvantage before he even entered the AFL system. He was a volley-ball/basketballer turned footballer who's very weaknesses have all been football-specific. Foot-skills, ball-handling, game sense, game awareness, handballing, football smarts etc. None of the list you've mentioned had or have the same number of weaknesses in the 'football specific' attributes column. Rance's kicking has been the knock early on, but he is simply incomparable to Frost due to the sheer number of outstanding football qualities he possessed which was evidenced by the fact he went at #18 in his draft year. Frost is in his 6th year and is playing reserves in a side that has possibly the weakest key defensive unit within the AFL. Rance was an AA in his 6th year, McGovern was in the 40-man squad in his 5th year and Jones is currently heralded as one of the best key defenders in the game after having played the position for half the year. Richards is the only one who took his time to find his groove and again that wasn't because of a lack of ability/below average footy-specific skills. By 2010 he was Sydney's best defender, 5 years after his move to the Swans and his move to key defender. Frost is overrated as I've stated. I like the strengths he possesses, but his weaknesses are across the most important attributes one needs to succeed at this level.

It would be close to impossible to land Kelly and Lever. In a perfect world I'd love to land Lever, sign Motlop as a free agent and then hit the drafts/trade for some class and run.

I would bet safely that a list manager would say the complete opposite. A questionable best 22 veteran coming off an ACL injury for the last year of his contract VS a full year of development for a kid. I'd say it's a fairly obvious decision from a 'what's best for the club' perspective. Unless of course they put Garland onto the rookie list.

Again, not here to pot Frost for those who will no doubt believe otherwise. But a question to those of you who highlight his strengths as a player needs to be asked and then addressed. Is there any point in having lightening speed, great athleticism if your fundamental football specific skills are average at best? Yeh Frost has taken some fantastic contest grabs as a defender, but he's also had the same amount of absolute howlers that have turned into opposition scores. Yeh Frost has had some lightening fast line-breaking runs. But he also turns the ball over just as often as he makes those runs. Why do people ignore this when naming his strengths? Maybe because the hope for most is that those footy specific skills will improve enough for him to become a consistent contributor as a key backman? We also have hope that Oscar will improve enough to reach a consistent level. And we have Tom McDonald who at over 100 games experience, still struggles to perform consistently as a defender? Ideally you want high end talent spanning across all lines of your list. Clearly ours is stacked in the midfield and forward line, with little high end talent in our backline and especially our key defensive group. Frost is as expendable as they come right now for us. We have too many 'ifs' and 'hopes' for our three key defenders. Lever being high end talent would transform our backline, I know everyone agrees with that. But what is the obsession with keeping Frost?

Given it's the last year of his contract next year and he wasn't even best 22 before he did his injury, he'd be taking a valuable development year off a draftee. I'd say there's quite some harm in that. Frost is one of the most overrated players on this forum. He'd be absolutely no loss if we got Lever.

It hasn't. I'd say 80% of the thread is about Lever. There's nothing wrong with comparing players anyway. As for which defensive group you'd have, Adelaide's is much better than ours at full strength. Their depth, talent and experience are way above ours.

One can never be certain around these parts.

Take away Jeremy's marking and he's pretty rubbish. Lacks any real natural defensive foundation to his game because he was a forward as a junior. Lever trumps him in most facets of the game by some margin.

^ I find it funny that posters play down the importance of an effective intercept player. Almost as though they have an easier job than a player who doesn't have the same intercept ability. The fact that Lever is number 1 on the list as a key defender at the same age as O-Mac and similar games is mind blowing. Do supporters understand that intercept players also have opponents to play on too? Hibberd is our best intercept player and sits at number 9 on that list and he's arguably now one of our most important players. Imagine having a key defender version of him..

Quick, who did he barrack for as kid?

As has been asked before, what on earth do Hawthorn have to offer Adelaide?

Haha. Couldn't be bothered or worried what you might find? Regardless, you and your merrymen can continue to put words in my mouth. I've never used the word dud in regards to Oscar. I point out his glaringly obvious weaknesses because I want to see better for our club and I get frustrated that he is playing partly due to circumstance. Part of the frustration is directed at the FD for not recruiting anyone last year to give Oscar more time at VFL level. People choose to believe it's not an issue but I think it's plainly obvious we've struggled all year in that area. Unlike you and others I refuse to put blind faith into every decision the club makes, including weekly selections and list management decisions. I'm not so easily pleased like you with all of our young players and I'm happy to voice my opinion about it.

Interesting you say that yet you remain so confident Oscar will develop into a great key defender.... Oscar is the least mobile and slowest key defender we have. Hardly conducive to a zone defence.

Here's a highlights package from last year (his second year): In this video he makes spoils and marks against players including Brown (North), Bruce, Mason Wood (destroyed us), Lobbe and takes one between Dangerfield and Hawkins. Who the fark do we have that can do this apart from T-Mac at his best which isn't that often these days? This bloke was performing these acts in his second year! His second year! Look at the bloke's strengths. He has a highlights package like that in his second year. We have no key defender that even comes close to being able to perform in all the areas he does. He possesses midfielder attributes as well as sound key defensive ones. He is so unbelievably rare it's offensive some of our own supporters don't appreciate players like Lever enough. The 'who's going to mind player X' talk is generally a furphy. Yeh there are always preferable matchups, but there are so many other variables that come into play. If you look at all the best teams, their entire unit works in tandem to mitigate an opposition attack but obviously the better, more talented and more versatile your key defenders are, the better chance you're going to have at stopping a key forward. If we land him, it'll be a godsend. Bribanes two young defenders even showed how good they're going to be in few years time. They have similarly well-rounded games with only a few weaknesses. Melbourne supporters overate Oscar and Frost enormously.

Bring him home boys. 2020 leadership group of: Viney, Lever, Petracca, Brayshaw, Gawn and Hogan. Best in the business.

He'd only be a 50/50 chance of connecting properly though.

Case in point: Oscar spoil goes over the back and straight to a Brisbane player. He rarely spoils with conviction and I hardly see him get a full fist on it at all.

You're a funny poster. I'm not sure how many times you need reminding of how the term 'whipping boy' comes about. But I'll remind you, again. Players who generally make many errors are the ones who get stuck with the name. So the reason why Oscar, Frost, Tyson and Watts are highlighted so regularly on demonland is because of the frequency and type of errors they make vs the positive pieces of play they're involved in. Yeh, all players make errors/mistakes, I don't need reminding. You've pointed out Lever's on Friday night. But the reason he is not a 'whipping boy' is because of the sheer volume of positive play he creates or is involved in. A small example of one attribute being the way he kills a contest with his spoiling. Not just getting a hand on the ball which allows a spill. Genuinely killing a ball so that there's a reset in play. Lever displays this skill at a level that is completely incomparable to Oscar's. The way he spoils compared to Oscar is like chalk and cheese. There is spoiling then there is killing a contest. Lever almost always kills a contest when attempting a spoil. Compare that to Oscar who is 50/50 at best to even get a spoil in, let alone kill a contest. That is one example of many I could give you in regards to the two players. Marking, awareness, composure, speed, ball use, aggression. You can't compare them as players because Lever is so far ahead of Oscar in all of those areas in the game. The goal/scoring saving moments that Lever makes are out of this world. Therefore, a few mistakes from him isn't going to get the same reaction given the level he plays at for the majority of the game. All great players who make mistakes cop far less for it because of their ability to win contests they shouldn't, create scoring chains from nothing, save what would otherwise be certain goals and the list goes on and on. Why so hard to understand?

Hope Oscar is watching Lever tonight. He's giving a masterclass in effective spoiling. Take note.

Pffffftt. No. I love Oscar, I don't know what you're talking about.

* Two of those...

Good is generous. I am stubborn. But Oscar is definitely not a good player yet. He is a developing one who is still really inconsistent during games.