Gator

We get it. You're fazed.

Others brought him up.

The AFL investigated the Essendon saga and obviously found Goodwin had no case to answer. As an assistant coach he wasn't in charge of "governance". If you weren't "fazed" I doubt you'd be bringing it up. I'm genuinely unfazed.

Unlike Jordie, you want the ball in Oliver's hands. That sweeping handball on the wing to the player in space epitomises his composure and footy smarts. He's a different type of player, but he'll be as good as Brayshaw. Gawn, Brayshaw, Oliver, Viney, Salem, vandenBerg, Tyson, Petracca will be a formidable group in years to come.

Of course it was peronal, whatever that means. Baggie and I often disagree at the edges, but usually concur with the bigger stuff. Not always, but usually. So what did you think of Oliver on Friday ?

He lives in Canberra... Btw, did he ever answer your post re his assertion that Hogan is a mercenary ?

Nah. I'd had a couple of lovely reds that night if I remember correctly (maybe one too many) and the sight of a Jordie McKenzie look alike was too much to bear, especially as I was then keen on Parish. In the cool light day I thought I'd better take a closer look. It took nano seconds to realise my previous offering was moron worthy. Aghast, I quickly retracted and have been a "Clarriefier" ever since.

OK. They're penalised substance abusers, who were deemed to have acted inappropriately within a systemic injection regime. How about peptide cheats ?

And you would know that I retracted that comment within 24 hours of making it. You can't retract being a simpleton.

Naturally, you're welcome to it, but your assessment is rubbish. Having taken him at pick 3, clearly the club agrees. Why you don't at hold fire on your views until you have at least some exposed form with the MFC is beyond me.

Why would you question it ? Clearly you don't know, so back the recruiters until you're in a position to make an informed assessment. His footy smarts in congestion look elite to me, albeit not yet exposed at AFL level.

(Re-post, as I responded to the incorrect poster) The following is from an article linked at the bottom: “The thing that stands out for me is his competitiveness. The club wants guys who have a crack and compete for 100 percent of the game. He’s certainly one of those blokes,” Brayshaw told aflplayers.com.au at last week’s AFLPA Induction Camp. “The guys have already given feedback that he’s a super competitor and we want to play with him because of the way he goes about it on the training track.” I'm not sure what you expect from an 18 year after 10 weeks on the training track, or why you think he'd be "starring", but it appears the players and club are happy with his progress. http://www.aflplayers.com.au/article/new-demon-oliver-at-home-with-the-brayshaws/

He's had a vastly superior career and he's certainly more talented. Right now they're on about par, which is why they've got the same present rating. I'd still have Cotchin ahead. Hope that helps.

He does everything better. That's not a slight on Jones, btw. He also kicks more goals. The most Jones has kicked in a season is 16. The most Selwood has kicked is 30. I highly rate goal-kicking mids. He especially reads the game better, is harder and makes better decisions. And no, it doesn't mean Jones isn't hard too. Viney is as hard as Selwood, Jones isn't.

Talk about cherry picking. Jones has been in the system and half of that time was rubbish. Cotchin has his faults but is a vastly superior player.

No, Cotchin is more talented and has performed at a better level over their careers. Given the choice of both footballers I'd take the one who has performed better and has a higher ceiling. You got caught out saying "Wow", etc. because you struggle to analyse basic concepts. Other posters then have to waste time spoon feeding you until the penny drops. You then complain that you're just expressing an "opinion". But no, you were ridiculing another poster who was using sound judgment free of bias. Let's look at another measure, i.e. Brownlow votes: Cotchin already ranks 5th on Richmond's all time list with 100 (153 games). Jones is doing quite well with 56 (201 games). Cotchin is second on Richmond's all time list for average votes per game. Jones ranks 36. Cotchin has 19 BOG's. Jones has 6. Btw, Jones has also only had one A-grade season and his first 5 years were crud. By any measure Cotchin has been the better footballer, but you keep deluding yourself.

Firstly, Jones played all of 2015 as a 27 year old. Secondly, 28 is STILL in your primes as an AFL footballer. It's peak prime. While I agree that Cotchin has played in better teams the Tiges are still bog ordinary. He hardly has this huge advantage when he's one of the first tagged every week. Deledio is never in the trenches with him and Martin plays high half-forward with occasional forays into the middle. They're still trying to improve their midfield. Cotchin has made AA on the back of one brilliant season. His team DID NOT play finals in the year he made AA. Jones has never made the squad of 40. Yes, I did point out that Cotchin is more talented. So what ? He is. That isn't "changing" a story, it's an observation. One you say you share. Seemingly stats don't matter when they don't favour your argument. Imo, there IS enough of a difference to show who has had the better career to date. It's not a huge difference, but virtually all the key stats favour Cotchin (virtually no difference in tackles). Cotchin is a B+ footballer and Jones is a B+ footballer. There's not a lot in it, but there's enough evidence on talent and stats for me to conclude one is better than the other. Especially when Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. I expressed a view that I'd take Cotchin ahead of Jones. Big deal. It's just MY opinion. Your reply was "Wow. You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly." It was a stupid reply. But it was a reply befitting your standard contributions. I also agree that Jones offers intangibles from a captaincy point of view and he's improved his leadership over the last couple of years. My opinion was based more on football. The option to swap isn't realistic, so I didn't take captaincy into consideration when stating who I'd take.

Yep. If you can't perform in finals you're as useful as a cold pie. Cotchin should get more chances to redeem himself and Jones will get another taste of finals action, if not this year then next.

You do realise there's a reason for those stats and accolades ? At the age of 22 in 2010 Selwood won Geelong's B&F. It was in the middle one of modern AFL history's greatest dynasties. Have a look at the names in that side and how many games they played for the season. Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. Yes, it didn't help playing for a rabble devoid of a strong senior group. But I don't know in what parallel universe you can claim Jones to be Selwood's equal. It's utter nonsense.

I knew it wouldn't be long before the gadfly popped up. The facts are Cotchin's best season is better than Jones' best season. Cotchin made AA in 2012 and he did it in a team that finished 12th. Cotchin averages more disposals, marks, goals and rating points (90 to 79) throughout his career with 50 less games (numbers usually go up as one's career progresses). Cotchin has also won 3 B&F's; and in a team that has been superior to Jones'. Cotchin has had one A-grade year and Jones has had one A-grade year. Cotchin is naturally a more talented and skilled player. I've already said Cotchin has been disappointing over the last 3 years, as I expected him to become a superstar, even then he's averaged more possessions, goals and ratings points than Jones. If Melbourne supporters prefer Jones that's great, but for you to utter the words "wow" and "silly" only confirms that you have an iq bordering on you know what.

The team aspect won't be quantified unless Jones plays alongside him at Geelong. My eyes tell me he's clearly a better player and stats and peer recognition suggest the same. You don't win B&F's playing alongside premiership players in Scarlett, Enright, Ablett, Bartel, Taylor, Kelly, Corey, Johnson, etc. unless you're a star. Selwood isn't just skilled and tough, he's also a superb reader of the game and decision maker. It took Jones a long time to improve these aspects of his game. Selwood won a B&F in his 4th year. It took Jones until his 6th season to play decent footy. There's no comparison. Unless of course you're a biased Melbourne suppoerter with blinkers on.

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go. Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones. Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game. He has 4 AA. Jones has never made the squad. He's been named best captain in the AFL. Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player. He also won the Rising Star award in 2007. I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions. Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles. You don't have to be a star to tackle. It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well. And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

Cotchin has more talent than Jones, but he's not a star. He has the potential to be a star, but he's disappointed over the last 3 years. Cotchin has had one great season and I'm surprised he hasn't gone on with it. He was brilliant in 2012 and has been disappointing ever since. He couldn't handle a tag at under 18 level and he's yet to show he can consistently handle one at AFL level. And 9 possessions in a final when you're captain is abysmal. That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

A flag is all I care about. To win a flag you need "stars". Jones isn't and never will be a star. If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars. Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones. That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality. Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level. Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ?

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated. If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed. I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones. We need him to be a better player than Jones.