I think you should acknowledge that Paul Johnson, since the Collingwood game (and probably before that), actually costs us 1-2 goals a game through direct turnovers near goal. Jamar does not touch the ball much and this is a bonus compared to PJ's adverse disposal. ...................

A fact that is hard to dispute.

The PJ issue has been done to death, i don't really feel the need to add anymore. I'm very much on the same page as Dappa Dan re: PJ, and i'll leave it at that.

What i will say is this; as ardent a supporter as i have been of him over his career, his form this season has been far too inconsistent to warrant not being dropped. He was woeful last week and has been several times this year, but peppered in between are some good to very good games. For those that say he hasn't played any good footy, i disagree, he has played some very good games this year (see rounds 7-10). It's just too often that he'll play a good one, then a poor one, then a good one, then two poor ones etc. He definitely needs to work on his consistency and find some confidence, because at the moment his confidence in his own skills looks shot. I don't remember him having any real howlers last year the way he has this year, so IMO it's all above the shoulders for him. I'm hope he can bounce back.

I do have faith that he'll go back to Casey and get back to basics, work into some form, and find himself back in the team sooner rather than later.

But as it is, he's been our premier ruckman this season for good reason.

Nobody is questioning who is the better "ruckman".

What we're talking about here... and I'll say it over and over til I'm blue in the face, then say it some more... is that Jamar IS the better tap ruckman. MFC fans simply have to make a choice between:

20 taps and 15-25 touches, and...

30 taps and a complete vacuum around the ground.

Premier ruckman my arse. PJ has been the premier ruck because everyone else is injured. In fact Jamars two games would easily unseat PJ.

Nobody is questioning who is the better ruckman? Hello, They are getting picked as ruckman. That's like picking a wicketkeeper who can't catch but can bat a little. Their first job is to be a ruckman. Be strong, Be a presence, Win tap outs to advantage, crash packs and take contested marks.

Dean Cox is regarded as the best ruck. Yes he gets plenty of possessions and gets around the ground but he is also very good at the ruck. HIS FIRST JOB.

PJ 20 taps. Talk about skewing stats. He has had more single digit tap outs then 20+.

And I am not a Jamar fan. I just can't stand ruckman who has zero presence.

Anyone who judges ruckman on their around-the-ground stat count first, doesn't understand the primary and crucial role of a ruckman.

Jamar's 7 disposals and countless of hitouts to advantage, were instrumental yesterday. We scored 7.4 directly from hitouts, so in my book, Jamar had a hand in setting up 12 scoring shots. That is the true value of a ruckman, not running around picking up 20 possessions in the back pocket, most of which are poorly disposed of.

Jamar averages twice as many hitouts as PJ per game this year. Averages nearly twice as many tackles per game, and only 4 less disposals per game. And that's off 3 games versus 13.

PJ has a LOT of ground to make up before he is anywhere near as effective or influential as Jamar has been this year. Learning to ruck effectively and using his physicality might also help. There is no way he could have done to Naitanui what Jamar did, and with ruckmen getting bigger and taller, that is a very important aspect of the game.

I think you should acknowledge that Paul Johnson, since the Collingwood game (and probably before that), actually costs us 1-2 goals a game through direct turnovers near goal. Jamar does not touch the ball much and this is a bonus compared to PJ's adverse disposal.

Fair enough, I will for you since you ask nicely. But I won't to people who seem to ignore how unbelievably atrocious Jamar has been in his career up until his last 3 games.

Having said that, your second point is kind of absurd. If you apply that theory, then we should select EVERY teenager on the list at once because they touch it less and hence make less mistakes... ???

PJ makes mistakes, yes, but he hasn't always, and last season had nothing like as many clangers as this year. In fact he was considered a precise and reliable user. This year something has gone wrong, with him AND the rest of the list. I'm confident it will be seen as an aberration, as I said, as he hasn't been bad ALL year.

Premier ruckman my arse. PJ has been the premier ruck because everyone else is injured. In fact Jamars two games would easily unseat PJ.

Your post is almost completely unworthy of an intelligent response, but I'll bite... PJ is our premier ruck because he's played all but 1 game. Were he not, Spencer (when he was unhurt) and Martin would have been our solo ruck acts. I didn't say being our premier ruckman was much to crow about, but it is nonetheless a fact. Jamar's 2 games? I'll see you PJ's game over in Perth a couple of months ago over BOTH Jamar's efforts. Why? Because he was better... and because in one game he had more of the pill than Jamar did in two.

Nobody is questioning who is the better ruckman? Hello, They are getting picked as ruckman. That's like picking a wicketkeeper who can't catch but can bat a little. Their first job is to be a ruckman. Be strong, Be a presence, Win tap outs to advantage, crash packs and take contested marks.

Go back and read my post, if you can. READ what is written. I'll paraphrase here. I DON'T RATE ruckmen. More specifically, I do rate ruckmen, but not ruckmen who don't know how to supplement their largely ineffective taps with 15+ touches, at least, in a game. Jamar doesn't do this, you said it yourself, so I don't rate him. Granted PJ hasn't done much with what he gets, but at least he gets it.

Dean Cox is regarded as the best ruck. Yes he gets plenty of possessions and gets around the ground but he is also very good at the ruck. HIS FIRST JOB.

Garbage. What makes Cox great? His hit-out count at year's end? Sandilands gets way more taps... It's what he does around teh ground that makes him number one and has made him number one for years. You're doing your arguement no favours.

PJ 20 taps. Talk about skewing stats. He has had more single digit tap outs then 20+.

I'd be interested to see those stats. In the games he has had less than 20, he'd have been sharing the duties. When on his own (not counting Martin who has been there more or less all the time) he's managed 20+ stats on every occasion. Even 30+ on one I think. Jamar's taps? About the same. No stats skewing there...

And I am not a Jamar fan. I just can't stand ruckman who has zero presence.

So what's your solution? I mean other than delisting both? One or both must be played when fit as they're the only ones mature enough not to get knocked out within a quarter. Personally, Id rather stick with a player who has shown a propensity to at least GET the pill a lot over his career. Jamar will NEVER average over 10 possessions. Ever.

Anyone who judges ruckman on their around-the-ground stat count first, doesn't understand the primary and crucial role of a ruckman.

In 1983, sure. Personally I'd take the Cox model. I want a presence, pure and simple... (which I grant is what Jamar was on the weekend)

Jamar's 7 disposals and countless of hitouts to advantage, were instrumental yesterday. We scored 7.4 directly from hitouts, so in my book, Jamar had a hand in setting up 12 scoring shots. That is the true value of a ruckman, not running around picking up 20 possessions in the back pocket, most of which are poorly disposed of.

Wow. You're defending a player who played a whole match on his own in the ruck (except for Martin, who was pinch hitting) and got 7 touches.

Ok. 7.4 directly from hitouts? So Jamar had a day when he gave hit-outs to advantage? Good on him. Let's see if magically he is able to do this all the time now... In his previous 70-odd matches he has shown no more ability in this regard than any other young ruckman... Besides... McLean played a blinder, which he hasn't all year. Are you saying the difference is Jamar? Or perhaps the difference is the fact we were playing a Cox/Kerr-less West Coast... who over here are the worst side in the comp.

Jamar averages twice as many hitouts as PJ per game this year. Averages nearly twice as many tackles per game, and only 4 less disposals per game. And that's off 3 games versus 13.

Can't give you any of that. Sorry. Jamar averages twice as many hit-outs because he played 3 games where he was largely the only guy doing the ruckwork. In PJ's games doing it alone, he got high twenties too... Same goes for possessions. Take a closer look, and we'll compare their stats come years end. Give PJ the job on his own, and he gets 20-odd against the best in the league. Give the same to Jamar... go on, I dare you.

PJ has a LOT of ground to make up before he is anywhere near as effective or influential as Jamar has been this year.

How can I take that seriously? 3 games!!!!! Just go through the year's games, and count the amount PJ was effective in! Fair go Jaded! A "long way"???

Learning to ruck effectively and using his physicality might also help.

Can't disagree with that. But like I've said a million times, I'd love for PJ to be given some space forward. He's played good footy there before, and as a backup ruckman, his skillset works excellently. I noticed, as did SEN I believe, he loves the boundary lines. Would it be enough for him to be a roaming ruckman who does the boundary stuff and gets midfield touches while Jamar goes forward after taking the centre bounces? Too busy? Too one-dimensional? Predictable?

There is no way he could have done to Naitanui what Jamar did

There is no way Jamar could have done to Cox what PJ did. No way in hell. But then he didn't do it last weekend, so his game over in Perth earlier this year may as well not have happened? Right?

Fair go...

Fair go...

Dan I'm not gonna keep going around in circles.

I've given you all the evidence I have to support my argument. All you've done is tell me that PJ gets a lot of hitouts sometimes but is not a big physical ruck presence. Wow, I'm impressed.

That you are pretty much writing Jamar's influence on Saturday off, by telling me that West Coast's midfield was poor and Brock had a great game, just goes to show that you really are not prepared to accept any argument against PJ.

For what it's worth, I'm sure most people would agree that Jamar has been much better this year than PJ.

And the fact remains that PJ is not good enough to be first ruck, and is not effective enough as a KPP to be a secondary ruckman. If Martin can learn to pinch-hit in the ruck, and there is no reason why he couldn't, than he is exactly the sort of secondary ruckman that you want in your team, because he can play another position effectively. PJ cannot.

What are their contracts like?

I would delist them both at years end if they are out of contract.

They are the definition if 'list cloggers'.