The point is if we were going to bottom out 2007-8 was the time to do it as you illustrate. Last year we stuffed up, our coach of the day then went to Carltank soon after. I don't think we should waste all of next year for one Draft pick. You Do-Fair enough but don't make out that i am a fool. The MFC has got to start looking like winning club or we shall not keep anyone, let alone a first draft pick.

I am calling you a fool because you continue to state, despite being told many times, that GC will be taking picks in the 09 draft which is completely untrue

Everything else you are saying about 2007 and the club's image etc is a completely different issue that you are using to mask your stuff up

This is annoying to me because we are trying to have an important discussion are you are polluting it with misinformation- check your facts next time please

By supporters, members and sponsors, and those folk who pay their money. If it's not because of game plan and execution, then what is it?

That's a pretty broad statement...

I fall into the category of 'folk who pay their money', and I'm not prepared to now put the blame on 'game plan' if we win few games next year.

I felt we'd be in for a tough year in 2008 and I was right, but that was a prediction based on our list, not projections about the likely success of the 'game plan'.

Btw, your 'game plan' comment has suddenly become 'game plan and execution' - a fair difference IMO.

Surely inability to 'execute' can be due to a sub-standard list?

Why? We have a year's further experience under the belt of Morton, Garland, Farmer, Warnock, Bate, Jones, Buckley, Dunn, Frawley, CJ, PJ, Petterd. Wonna, Maric and Grimes have had a sniff. McLean and most other longer term injured players should return.

Why?

We just finished last, and Club figures like Stynes and Connolly admit finals are likely a 3-5 year proposition.

We'll continue to play - and rely on - inexperienced kids in important positions and they'll be inconsistent.

As in 2008, our lack of depth will mean that any injuries hit very hard.

Take our ruck division - it's sub-standard atm, and we have a distinct lack of depth (our third ruck couldn't crack a regular Sandy 1sts game).

Given that, I think it's a fair call to state that our list is a long way behind that of many other Clubs.

PS. Who's Farmer?

PS. Who's Farmer?

meant Martin.

I am calling you a fool because you continue to state, despite being told many times, that GC will be taking picks in the 09 draft which is completely untrue

Everything else you are saying about 2007 and the club's image etc is a completely different issue that you are using to mask your stuff up

This is annoying to me because we are trying to have an important discussion are you are polluting it with misinformation- check your facts next time please

The Draft is affected by the GC next year. The age Criteria is being changed and they recieve heaps of 17 year olds. That changes the nature of the Draft Signifigantly..

The Draft is affected by the GC next year. The age Criteria is being changed and they recieve heaps of 17 year olds. That changes the nature of the Draft Signifigantly..

as i've already said the age restriction is unlikely to make any difference if we have the first 2 picks. even if it does and some kid is unavailable it will be like having pick 1 and 3 and therefore still well worth our trouble

I fall into the category of 'folk who pay their money', and I'm not prepared to now put the blame on 'game plan' if we win few games next year.

It's like democracy, isn't it? While the majority of people who pay their money may sit quietly dumbfounded, others may question the strategies.

I felt we'd be in for a tough year in 2008 and I was right, but that was a prediction based on our list, not projections about the likely success of the 'game plan'.

Ok, fair statement, and that is why it was important to get game time into the young one's. Can't run a game plan if the players can't execute.

Btw, your 'game plan' comment has suddenly become 'game plan and execution' - a fair difference IMO.

Disagree. There can be no game plan without execution.

Surely inability to 'execute' can be due to a sub-standard list?

Why?

We just finished last, and Club figures like Stynes and Connolly admit finals are likely a 3-5 year proposition.

We'll continue to play - and rely on - inexperienced kids in important positions and they'll be inconsistent.

I think you are not really meaning substandard, I think you are meaning inexperienced - inability to execute yet.

As in 2008, our lack of depth will mean that any injuries hit very hard.

I think we'll have a little more experienced depth due to the game time for many young players through 2008.

Take our ruck division - it's sub-standard atm, and we have a distinct lack of depth (our third ruck couldn't crack a regular Sandy 1sts game).

agree

Given that, I think it's a fair call to state that our list is a long way behind that of many other Clubs.

Behind most, and not a long way. I take heart from a couple of competitive games we played this year, eg Brisbane for one.

as i've already said the age restriction is unlikely to make any difference if we have the first 2 picks. even if it does and some kid is unavailable it will be like having pick 1 and 3 and therefore still well worth our trouble

You think it is unlikely...and you are willing to bank a whole season on that!!! Nearly $40 mill will pass through melbourne books next year on all up running costs. You are talking of a big risk particulairly with the world economies choking on their own greed at the moment.

You think it is unlikely...and you are willing to bank a whole season on that!!! Nearly $40 mill will pass through melbourne books next year on all up running costs. You are talking of a big risk particulairly with the world economies choking on their own greed at the moment.

unlikey and even if it does, it will be minimal - is actually what I said.

if you are going to talk about long term economics I will argue that we will be recouping any lost money when our team is actually good in a few years and everyone jumps on board. I am not confident we will get to that stage and at the very least we need that extra pick. Severe cattle shortage on the MFC pastures. Need some real stars like most of the 25 I listed for you a few posts ago.

unlikey and even if it does, it will be minimal - is actually what I said.

if you are going to talk about long term economics I will argue that we will be recouping any lost money when our team is actually good in a few years and everyone jumps on board. I am not confident we will get to that stage and at the very least we need that extra pick. Severe cattle shortage on the MFC pastures. Need some real stars like most of the 25 I listed for you a few posts ago.

You are right to covet all of that potential, but alas, we have spent 2 years languishing we can't languish for a 3rd year for Sponsor/Member/Gate reasons. We stuffed 2007, now it's time to move on with what we have, and what cattle we can get going forward, perhaps in the same fashion Geelong did;

J Selwood 7

A Mackie 7

J Bartel 8

J Kelly 17

S Johnson 24

G Ablett 40

Geelong won in 2007 with only 1 sub 7 draft pick, Ottens at 2 for Richmond. They never bottomed out.

You are right to covet all of that potential, but alas, we have spent 2 years languishing we can't languish for a 3rd year for Sponsor/Member/Gate reasons. We stuffed 2007, now it's time to move on with what we have, and what cattle we can get going forward, perhaps in the same fashion Geelong did;

J Selwood 7

A Mackie 7

J Bartel 8

J Kelly 17

S Johnson 24

G Ablett 40

Geelong won in 2007 with only 1 sub 7 draft pick, Ottens at 2 for Richmond. They never bottomed out.

Look mate it just doesn't matter what happened to Geeling in 2007 nor does it does any other side ever

If you are going to make comparisons try CARLTON - watch how good they will be thanks to their shameless marauding of the draft system

The point is we get a free hit at an extra superstar which is an advantage, it could be a very big advantage if it turned out to be someone like Judd, Cooney, Hodge or Franklin, even a McLean - it's well worth another crap year since we are not challenging for a good while anyway. You can't honestly believe we have the cattle - I see us as 5 excellent players short of a top side at least. Where are they gong to come from?

It's like democracy, isn't it? While the majority of people who pay their money may sit quietly dumbfounded, others may question the strategies.

No, it's not. Criticisng what happens next year is fine - but deciding now that x factor is definitely the cause if we fail in 2009 is bizarre.

Ok, fair statement, and that is why it was important to get game time into the young one's. Can't run a game plan if the players can't execute.

No disagreement here.

Disagree. There can be no game plan without execution.

So now 'game plan' is a handy phrase for you to use which can cover any and all on-field factors?

If that's your definition, then it probably will be 'game plan' which decides how well we do, since you're using it to cover so many factors!

I think you are not really meaning substandard, I think you are meaning inexperienced - inability to execute yet.

No, I'm meaning sub-standard - falling short of a standard or norm.

I think it describes where our list is at the moment perfectly.

However, I do think many players have the potential to improve.

I think we'll have a little more experienced depth due to the game time for many young players through 2008.

Over the last two years we've lost guys like Bizz, Ward, Brown, Pickett, Godfrey, Ferguson, Johnstone, Holland, White, Yze, and Neitz.

While they may not have been world-beaters (particularly at the end of their career), they were normally somewhat competitive.

As we saw in 2008, this was - understandably - more than could be said for some of our young guys on occassion.

I'm certainly not unhappy that we're 'playing the kids', but many of them will still be pretty green next year.

In the perfect world we'd have more experienced guys in our 22, let alone as depth.

Given that, I think it's a fair call to state that our list is a long way behind that of many other Clubs.

Behind most, and not a long way. I take heart from a couple of competitive games we played this year, eg Brisbane for one.

Okay, but what do you take from the other 20-odd?

On balance, we were terrible and deserved to finish down the bottom of the ladder.

I think we'll be more competitive (reflected in a much better %), but don't expect us to win many more games.

I also won't make an assertion today that if we struggle next year, it must be due to x factor.

We won 2 of 22 games this year and were gifted another.

A more settled pre-season and list will see us improve our competitiveness.

Anything beyond that is, IMO, a bonus.

Look mate it just doesn't matter what happened to Geeling in 2007 nor does it does any other side ever

Ignoring a historic fact.

If you are going to make comparisons try CARLTON - watch how good they will be thanks to their shameless marauding of the draft system

Watching how good Carltank will be in the future is supposition at this stage.

The point is we get a free hit at an extra superstar which is an advantage, it could be a very big advantage if it turned out to be someone like Judd, Cooney, Hodge or Franklin, even a McLean - it's well worth another crap year since we are not challenging for a good while anyway. You can't honestly believe we have the cattle - I see us as 5 excellent players short of a top side at least. Where are they gong to come from?

I understand what you are saying; languish for a 3rd year for 1 additional top 4 bovine.

If we are 5 excellent players short, as you say, then indeed, where are they all going to come from? Certainly not from a 3rd year lanquishing.

Also, I don't believe yet we have the cattle to become a top side, but I am hoping we have tremendous improvement in the current list and 2008 draft.

......................

On balance, we were terrible and deserved to finish down the bottom of the ladder.

I think we'll be more competitive (reflected in a much better %), but don't expect us to win many more games.

I also won't make an assertion today that if we struggle next year, it must be due to x factor.

I don't really disagree with much that you are arguing. But 'execution' is implicit in 'game plan' IMO

Should I blame 'game plan' if we don't improve next year? Let's just say I will, but you won't.

But 'execution' is implicit in 'game plan' IMO

Doesn't the very definition of 'plan' exclude execution of said plan?

I'd ask what your definition of 'game plan' includes, but perhaps it's easier to outline the factors that aren't part of your definition of 'game plan'

Should I blame 'game plan' if we don't improve next year? Let's just say I will, but you won't.

Let's not say that, since I haven't said the 'game plan' won't be a contributing factor if we fail to improve next year.

What I have said is that deciding now that a failure to improve next year will mean X is at fault seems a hasty call.

unlikey and even if it does, it will be minimal - is actually what I said.

if you are going to talk about long term economics I will argue that we will be recouping any lost money when our team is actually good in a few years and everyone jumps on board. I am not confident we will get to that stage and at the very least we need that extra pick. Severe cattle shortage on the MFC pastures. Need some real stars like most of the 25 I listed for you a few posts ago.

I can see where you are coming from but i don't think this club can survive another uncompetitive year, with the 2 new teams being forced upon us. We lost that chance in 2007. We may end up on the bottom next year because we genuinely are crap, but i certainly don't agree with the notion of aiming for that outcome. 3 years of wooden spoon football may mean we end up playing with Fitzroy. If we are crap sponsors are not going to put hard earned cash into our club.

For all Carltanks Tactics and recruiting of number 1 Draft Picks etc. The bottom line is If Fevola went down & did his knee they would fall straight back down the ladder. Without him there forward line is pretty bare, and the backline when pressured still leaks heavily. Visy board has helped them as much as Drafting

I seriously hope our young players improve big time next year, win back pride & respect. After a full pre season with his own team How good is Bailey? I am sure he is not thinking about finishing 16th in 2009/

I agreed with your 2009 scenario until i found out the Club was $8 mill in debt. After that it was No we gotta show serious Fight and Business Smarts otherwise this Great Football Club & the oldest will be dead.

Doesn't the very definition of 'plan' exclude execution of said plan?

Semantics, Rogue. Yes a plan is merely the roadmap. And a 'game plan' also is a roadmap, until the game begins. My definition of 'game plan' is not what's written on paper, but how it is implemented or rolled out. When the 'game plan' is implemented at the start of the first match next year, it will require 'execution' to implement.

Therefore 'execution' is implicit in 'game plan'.

If the execution of Bailey's game plan fails, then the game plan has failed. Questions would rightly be asked. Is the plan working? Are the players executing to it?

Totally agree with your above post, why you little.

Semantics, Rogue.

Yes a plan is merely the roadmap. And a 'game plan' also is a roadmap, until the game begins. My definition of 'game plan' is not what's written on paper, but how it is implemented or rolled out. When the 'game plan' is implemented at the start of the first match next year, it will require 'execution' to implement.

Therefore 'execution' is implicit in 'game plan'.

If the execution of Bailey's game plan fails, then the game plan has failed. Questions would rightly be asked. Is the plan working? Are the players executing to it?

Hardly semantics.

Hypothetically, if poor skills mar our season and mean we struggle to execute a game plan, I'd suggest that personnel might be a factor.

Hawthorn struggled under Clarkson for a while. Did they come good simply due to a better game plan, or were improvements in their personnel a major factor?

Hardly semantics.

Hypothetically, if poor skills mar our season and mean we struggle to execute a game plan, I'd suggestion that a factor would be our personnel.

Hawthorn struggled under Clarkson for a while. Did they come good simply due to a better game plan, or were improvements in their personnel a major factor?

Totally agree. Improvements in the personnel to 'execute' the 'game plan', current and drafted.

Totally agree with your above post, why you little.

Totally agree with your above post, why you little.

Thanks i just don't agree with settling for handouts six months before the season has even begun. Next years draft may not even be that good. We must impress Sponsors & the public. That is a priority. The draft does not exist for a long time after this year the way it has been. The AFL want the Gold

Coast up and competitive. We are probably thier last thought rite now. Only performance can turn that around.

"Failure Requires no Preparation" its easy. Hard work is not.

You make some good point,s but obviously our discussion is going in circles about trying to predict a few complete unknowns

Exactly how much of an advantage is that extra pick/upgrade worth?

Exactly how far off being a threat is our current list and how will it develop?

What effect will another bad year have on the development of the playing group?

What effect will another bad year have on the supporters, sponsors, attendences - our right to exist in the AFL?

Nobody can really answer these questions, we can only speculate. I guess as supporters we just have to pay up, go to the games and cross our fingers and hope for the best because we are certainly in a hell of a mire at present

GO DEES

You make some good point,s but obviously our discussion is going in circles about trying to predict a few complete unknowns

Exactly how much of an advantage is that extra pick/upgrade worth?

Exactly how far off being a threat is our current list and how will it develop?

What effect will another bad year have on the development of the playing group?

What effect will another bad year have on the supporters, sponsors, attendences - our right to exist in the AFL?

Nobody can really answer these questions, we can only speculate. I guess as supporters we just have to pay up, go to the games and cross our fingers and hope for the best because we are certainly in a hell of a mire at present

GO DEES

No worries Mate, (Schtacker is a great username btw) This is a discussion site, & that's what we were doing. I stood up for myself as i have watched this club since Round 1 1971 and since then we have accepted second best too much. I want to see this club Fight for its survival the Hard way, rather than Take just the easy option of Play ordinary and be rewarded with Draft picks. During the '50's that was unnacceptable as it should be now. If we want the Best Footballers to play for Melbourne & WANT to play for melbourne then this club has got to get on field Pride which will then filter thru the whole place.

Hopefully both of us will be a part of it.

Go DEES

And Chris Judd chose Carlton because they've been playing passionate footy and it was a place he would see himself being proud to play for?

We had on field "pride" two years ago, it didn't help.

We need bigger and better strategies than "get on field pride," and i think acquiring the nation's best young talent would have to be a driving force behind rebuilding a list that will be top 4 material, which we were never going to be by continuing to plug holes

No worries Mate, (Schtacker is a great username btw) This is a discussion site, & that's what we were doing. I stood up for myself as i have watched this club since Round 1 1971 and since then we have accepted second best too much. I want to see this club Fight for its survival the Hard way, rather than Take just the easy option of Play ordinary and be rewarded with Draft picks. During the '50's that was unnacceptable as it should be now. If we want the Best Footballers to play for Melbourne & WANT to play for melbourne then this club has got to get on field Pride which will then filter thru the whole place.

Hopefully both of us will be a part of it.

Go DEES

You know mate after the devestation of the recent FIXture, I feel I have done a 180 on my thinking. That fixture just tells me straight out that the AFL are happy to let us die. No doubt about it. I now agree with you that we just have to put in an at least decent year of footy this year at the price of the draft bonus or we could really be in a mess. I still don't think we will have the cattle to take us all the way in the future but I don't think we can afford to risk finishing last again, Mr.Demetriou is sharpening his axe. That means of course we have to actually play decent footy, something we have been spectacularly rubbish at for the past 2 years. We need about 10 blokes to have their absolute best year of footy yet - probem is I can think of about 10 who had their best year last year, and that certainly didn't help us. Can we at least get bloody McLean on the park at least half the time please. Anyway, i'm with ya, back up the ladder pronto please Dees.