T-34

Is it a problem that a soon to be AFL player cant kick 40 metres?

Pretty sure I saw him kick from about 55 out and it was touched on the line in the championships.

If he regularly hits a target over 40 metres he is already in front of 75% of the current list.

Has any club ever traded their captain? Unprecedented.

RD Barrassi from Melbourne to Carlton.

Speed is an over rated concept.

Players who are quick in the mind and are footballers rather than athletes are those who are most important in finals.

Mitchell,Hodge,Lewis,Kennedy,Bartel,Selwood are all vital to their sides come finals and none possess blistering pace but they all possess football smarts and an ability to read the play.

We have to few of these footballers and would prefer someone who makes good decisions backed up with equally good disposal.

One of the main reasons we are terrible is that we make poor decisions under pressure and we struggle to hold the ball because we can't consistently hit a target.

If Brayshaw can assist in addressing this he will be great and will make us better.

We are all equal, just that some are more equal than others.

Eddie and his cohorts want equalisation as long as it doesn't mean the have nots have an opportunity to compete at the top level.

Equalisation means we will ensure you just have enough to survive but not to thrive.

Four legs good, two legs better.

Those saying that none of our defenders can kick so he'll fit in or be an upgrade on what we already have, is that really what you will settle for?

I'd like to think we're all sick of limited players.

I watch every Collingwood game, usually with my best mate who is a Pies supporter, and I see the Lumumba frustration every week. This year particularly, he gets the ball, but what comes next is highly predictable. We all grew tired of Moloney's get ball boot ball style, this is no different, apart from the dash at the start.

This isn't like adding Cross and Vince, we had no midfield, they are pure midfield accumulators and were much needed.

We need half backs that can run, carry and most importantly hit a target consistently. Someone that sets up play off half back, not someone that simply offers relief for 25 seconds.

I saw the excitement in Paul Roos when discussing H on 360 so I'm resigned to the fact that its likely he's on his way here. I'm just putting it out there that I strongly believe this is not what our back line needs, and hopefully we do get what we need somewhere else, and Lumumba plays on the wing and bombs at goal from 50.

In Roos I trust, I 'spose.

We have to take improvements on our list where we find them.

It's not like we can find the exact players we need by clicking our fingers.

I would love to upgrade to a line breaking, hard running, pin point disposing half back but are any readily available?

List improvement can be incremental and we need to take it when available, it would seem that is the case with Lumumba.

Don't want another season of Grimes, Terlich and co. spotting up opponents when bringing the ball out of defence.

FA is destroying our competition. Between 1996 and 2006 every team played off in a Preliminary Final, now we have a two tier comp with the smaller clubs nothing more than feeder teams for the large clubs. The AFL needs to step in quickly before its too late. The AFL needs to adopt the US NFL FA system and must urgently make the following adjustments.

Teams 1 - 4: Forbidden from Free Agency. These teams can only lose players not gain players. There is no compensation for lost players.

Teams 5 - 8: Restricted Free Agency. These teams can only gain players if they lose players. There is no other compensation.

Team 9 - 12: Open Free Agency: These teams can poach FA with no restrictions, they can also lose players to FA. No draft compensation.

Team 13 -16: Open Free Agency but can't lose players. All players wishing to leave must be traded. Therefore no draft compensation required.

Making these changes would reverse the flow of players. The good teams would lose players to the poor teams, the reverse to which it is today. The big teams will still have an advantage when down the ladder as naturally players will want to play for them.

I call on the AFL to urgently make these changes for the long term health of our competition. No one wants to see the same teams win every year like in the EPL. AFL is only played in Australia, destroy the competition and the sport will suffer.

This is the only way that Free Agency would be equitable however I fear the ship may have already sailed and we are rocketing down the EPL road.

There are several teams now who are seen as nothing more than feeders for the perennial contenders who will share premierships among themselves.

I must be watching a different game.

HL can not defend, is terrible one on one. He was good in 2010 when him and Maxwell just played loose third man up defenders and run off but once he has been found out as a defender that cant defend hes had to moved up to the wing. Teams just isolated him one out in the 50 and he was found out.

Hes not a great kick, just bombs it long and high.

Yes hell play 20 games at melb but I wouldnt want to be paying too much for him, trade wise.

Id pass.

He should slide in seamlessly then because we have a backline that don't particularly defend one on one that well, they do defend as a team quite well though.

As for just bombing it long and high, why is this any worse than missing a target who is 25 metres away instead hitting his opponent lace out.

He is an upgrade on the incumbents and for that reason should be heavily considered, which is what is happening.

Surely trying to hasten our rise is what put us where we are now.

Lets do it properly, not quickly.

I would take that deal in a heart beat, he is the match of players in the draft but has been developed in a quality system.

Don't care he is not a regular for Sydney, it's about us and he would certainly make us better.

Personally I would prefer we could pass on this, but the reality of where our list is at and the amount of non AFL standard players we have means we can't afford to pass on proven players, even ones who carry far to much baggage for my liking.

It will all be in how much it will cost us, we need to get him for as little as possible, as he is only ever going to be a stop gap measure, while our young players get some decent development time.

I'm sick of the talk of trading pick 2 to GWS for whatever, we are continuously topping up their list.

We should keep pick 2 and look to trade pick 3, unless we receive a godfather offer.

We did well out of last years trade but would need something at least as good to remotely contemplate it.

Free agency may well have made the gap between top club and feeder club so large that some clubs may be doomed to living in the lower half of the ladder and simply developing players for the top clubs to grab just as they reach their peak. These lower clubs will need to get everything right, have a huge slice of luck and hope the top clubs make some bad decisions and have a horror run of injuries just to have a remote shot at success, much less have any sustained period of success.

I suspect if we revisit this thread in 5-10 years the only clubs who aren't at the pointy end now which may be then are GC and GWS, as designed by the league.

Frawley has played 138 games for 112 losses.

He has had 26 wins in his entire career to date.

To pluck out just one of your examples, Robert Harvey passed that mark by his third season. By the time he had reached Frawley's stage in his career, he had been a part of 70 wins.

I don't wish to be a Frawley apologist. No-one is more disappointed in the latter half of his season than me. But I'd love to see a record that compares with his. It is shocking, to say the least.

Many players of his ability would've tried to leave long before now, but he chose to stick around and for the lions share of his MFC career has given his all. His motivation has finally been worn down after 8 years of crud and that's disappointing. But guess what? He's human. He's fallible.

It's very easy to make Frawley the villain here. To lump him in with Scully and others.

It takes a bit of pause for thought to think about the factors that have not been in his control.

Then show some balls and say so.

His mantra so far has been I want to play for a club heading in the right direction as long as it does so without me having to contribute.

His AA year was superb, but he has not improved on that since and has regressed steadily.

He is at the point in his career where he should be a leader that can drag team mates along with him, through his actions on the field and off it.

Pathetic that he was waiting for the club to improve when he is one that should be driving that from within.

Yes there have been factors out of his control but he has done nothing with those within his control and made no effort to positively effect the others.

I'd rather have an 8 year key position player than start over again but it seems that is the cards we will be dealt.

I would not put Gary Ablett senior within a solar system of that list.

Players who never won a flag but never stopped putting in for their clubs.

You can take it or leave it whether he should be there.

delist

Frawley poor embarrassing disrespectful

Watts lazy careless soft

Funny they said much the same thing about this post.

I would happily blame Chip for leaving.

He has used the line of "I will wait to see the direction of the club" yet has done nothing himself to help move the team forward, instead spending the year treading water.

As for the no success line, that is not guaranteed for anyone when they play footy.

Gary Ablett Snr., Bob Skilton, Robert Harvey, Robbie Flower, the AFL/VFL road is strewn with some of the greatest players to ever pull on a boot who never experienced the ultimate success, but what set them apart was they never stopped meeting their own high standards and trying to drag their team mates along with them, they didn't cry about it or wait for someone else to put their hand up.

The fact of the matter is that Chip and many of his modern contemparies think that football somehow owes them a premiership medal whether they put in the required work both on and off the ground, I manage a staff of about 60 and if any of them put in a shift like he has this season he would be lucky to retain his job much less receive a golden ticket, if his workrate both physically and mentally don't improve markedly he will struggle to cement a place at a top club.

If or when this does happen it will reflect how terrible he has been this year when he had such a great opportunity to help lead us forward but decided that would be all to hard.

His actions have smacked of someone who wants success but are unwilling to pay the required price.

At least the EPL has started, I can watch my team score some goals in that.

The MFC are putrid and our players have given us nothing, they don't even have pride in their personal performances much less pride in the jumper.

I don't think the words Support and Boo go together. Once you start booing you stop being a Supporter. I've been following this crap for 50yrs, I haven't stopped being a Supporter yet and I've seen a lot worse than this mob. I don't think Jack Viney and Jonesy head out the door to play in a game like that. I don't think they deserve to be booed no matter what their teammates do. But if you boo you're booing all of them. That's Collingwood behaviour not ours. I feel ashamed to see Melbourne supporters booing the players no matter how crap they are. This type of abysmal play is usually caused by a chronic lack of confidence. Not sure booing them at the end of the game is really going to help repair that. But hey I could be wrong.

It's attitudes like this that makes our club a laughing stock.

Maybe our problem is we aren't more like Collingwood, who demand effort and passion, year in and year out. They don't look for weak excuses and show some sort of pride for the club, jumper and their members.

They routinely play finals and constantly look the improve their chances of winning both on and off the ground.

Currently I hate them because they do most things well and we are at the opposite end of the scale.

I'm mad as hell and I can't take it anymore, and if booing adequately expresses these feelings to those who are in charge of the direction of this club, and as a result something changes for the better, then I just wish we had of started booing several seasons ago.

The club as a whole needs to start understanding that the patience line is wearing thin when performances that are sub standard are so regular.

We as supporters deserve better and need to demand better, if this is conveyed through booing these sub standard performances so be it.

how has he set the standard other than talking about it & where was our standard yesterday

It took Ron the best part of five years, including a season where we only won one game.

I'm willing to give him his 3 years.

Changing such a poor culture/losing attitude is a long term project.

I was angry,devastated,gutted etc. yesterday as well but guess what, life goes on, and instead of stewing over this we need to move on.

At least results like this will bring forward the closure of several list clogging careers.

How did the list get like that?

Bailey was too blase' with the players, they lacked fitness and structure while twits like Connolly promoted tanking (thanks Prendegast, you did good with the additional picks.....). As this occured the CEO Schwab had his head too far in the past whilst trying to micromanage everything, releasing the annual business plan online known as "Whiteboard Wednesday" off the back of some rubbish book, he also spent erratically. And yet the board was constantly split and leaking everywhere.

The players (mature one in particular) run wild after hours constantly visiting Chapel St, new young players came in and what better way to introduce them to the club was by having a bender. Big Max'ey Gawn spewed all over Scully in China and LJ began to hit the booze hard.... ahhhh they were the days.... good times, and what better compliment to know you were really in with the boys by getting on "Beamer's Bumps and Bruises". Sylvia, Beamer, Russian, and Rivers truly led to the appalling player culture you see today.

Then came along Neeld, the hard ass we needed to whip the place into shape - too bad he was a moron. He completely lacked the ability to innovate, communicate and build the appropriate relationships with players and staff - particularly those that would of helped rebuild a positive culture like Green, instead he stripped him of his captaincy and had him retire. He also ignored those that could actually help him take the club forward, like that of T. Viney and recruiting staff wanting to draft Wines over Toumpas. The moron Neeld didn't even write his one and only B&F speech, most of that was written off the back of a fans email.

Now you try and bring Roos into it, trying to place him in the same light as Bailey and Neeld, I ask why?

All I can say is for once I am pleased with the clubs structure, I see unity and professionalism amongst the staff. If the club is to go forward it will be because of the likes of Roos and PJ. Yes the list is still in tatters but there will be a big turnover at the end of the season and my word I look forward to seeing what unfolds.

Funnily enough I see the sun setting on the bad Melbourne and the sun rising on a new improved club as well.

The years spent under Roos should set this club up for the lucky coach who takes over and reaps the benefits.

It is hauntingly similar to when R.D.Barrassi set us up for our late 80's and 90's push, when he set the standards for the kids who would form the backbone of a successful side.

My only knock is he has given the players the crutch to lean on by questioning past mistakes and there effect on players.

Surely we need to move on and if the players haven't we need some new players, or a severe reprogramming of the existing ones.

I have invested a great deal of time, money and passion to this club over the journey of almost 50 years.

If I decide that I've got nothing left to give without receiving some effort in return I will do so.

If that means someone refers to me as a fan, not a supporter it says more about them than it does me.

The lows have just become to much, and I can't devote as much of myself as I have to something that is supposed to be a pleasurable diversion from the harshness of everyday life.

I just wish I hadn't inflicted this onto my children who have really only known the festering sore this club has become.

I will always remember the late 80's with great fondness

I've seen very little reprogramming. Roos has simply trying to do what every coach has tried to do with Watts except Roos and has had the same level of success as far as I can tell.

Despite categorically stating Watts would play on a wing that was abandoned after about a month as he shifted forward. Then he started failing there so he was shifted back. Right now he's playing back and forward. Roos is breaking his own rules with Watts!

Unfortunately I think Roos is another in a long line of coaches who gets fooled by the training track performances and blinded by concerns about the PR battle and destroying poor Jacky's confidence instead of just treating him on the merits of his performance.

Watts was moved forward because Dawes, Clarke and Hogan couldn't get on the park, and he was next best.

All things being equal he would have had more time playing midfield.

His best position based on his attributes would surely be high half forward kicking into the forward targets.

Just my two cents worth anyway.

People like The Ox and King make these sweeping statements in an attempt to remain relevant and provoke a reaction, if they had any radical ideas that would revolutionize the club or footy in general, they would have clubs knocking down their doors to become involved. They are both failed assistant coaches, in Ox's case a part time one at that.

We have brought in new improved coaches.

We have brought in a new board and administration.

We still suck.

We must move on these lazy, stupid, incompetent players who are seemingly happy to accept inept efforts, and lean on pissweak excuses for their lack of ability or want to improve.

Some will leap to their defence but what happened today is inexcusable on any level and shows a lack of respect for the club, the supporters and their team mates.

While this continues our club is going nowhere with a bullet.

I could continue but nothing has or will change, and we are a million miles from just being able to compete on a weekly basis.

It always seemed a strange option to me. They have some really good young key defenders already and then you have Reid as a swingman AA key back. Why would they pay good money for Frawley?

You only needed to see Buckley's reaction to Robbo's question to know they are definitely into Frawley, whether they need him or not.

Would expect his pimp, sorry his manager, has been shopping his ass on most street corners. Collingwood would be one of many.

To think otherwise is a romantic notion ?

How about to think otherwise is factual.

Whilst a percentage of footballers are fortunate enough to move into rewarding fields post football there are a lot of footballers left very short by the system. For this reason the AFLPA and the clubs are strong on trying to promote education for footballers whilst they are playing and are also strong on getting good financial planning so the way better than average money they are earning during their playing days can be invested wisely.

Football is now a full time profession where you are basically finished by 34 ( if you are extremely lucky) - with training regimes a footballer does not have the same opportunity to gain post high school education unless they are very committed as it means part time study/university patterns which takes enormous discipline.

I talked with an ex MFC footballer from the 80's on this very subject who said that players first priority must to be maximise their earnings as the fallout rate post football is very high and concerning for the ALFPA.

Nutbean I think you will find that these days clubs encourage and organise for players to undertake post high school education as I was involved in this scheme for a brief time.

The AFLPA actually had a clause written that all clubs are to provide at least one day off per week where players are able to pursue further education.

Most take advantage of this and complete part time tertiary education.

Agree that AFLPA was/is concerned which is why this was introduced, if this is available to all and sundry please advise so my kids don't have to take out hecs loans.

Footballers don't cease to have the ability to earn once they retire they just have to live their lives in realityland, where they are mere mortals and have to live like the rest of us.