Jaded No More

Jones is the type of player that any good midfield could use. The problem is, that we don't have a good midfield. Cameron Ling is slow, but is a premiership midfielder. Brett Kirk's disposal is ordinary, but he is a premiership midfielder. What separates us from the likes of Geelong and Sydney (besides the fact that we're terrible and they're not), is that they have Goodes, and they have Ablett and amongst all that midfield class there are the hard-working, not terribly quick, not terribly gifted footballers who earn their keep because their bread and butter is to get clearances and be on the bottom of packs. They are not there because they can break the lines with pace, or hit a target 76 meters out on their non-preferred foot. So in a way, Jones is a victim of the crap he is surrounded with (and so are most of our kids), but if you look at it from a different point of view, we really can't keep carrying McLean, Jones, Moloney and Valenti on our list when they are all the same type of player, and when they all require a top quality midfield around them to perform at their best. Breaking it down, you keep McLean because of the 4 mentioned he is the best 'outsider' of the lot, meaning his disposal is very good most of the time. Of the rest, Jones stands out because he is a proven clearance winner, but unless he can reinvent another dimension and become a goal-kicking midfielder, or alternatively improve his disposal dramatically, he may just become dispensable, or worse, a depth player. Fortunately, I think he is capable of taking his game to another level and become an invaluable asset to our midfield, especially if one day he finds himself surrounded by a classy midfield.

This is what happens when, instead of listening, I read Demonland in class

As you said, his disposal has always been rather average, however this was not so much an issue when surrounded by a really strong group of midfielders. However, as I understand his knee injury has caused a permanent loss of cartridge, which reduces the strength and mobility of the knee. I think that could explain to a degree why he is getting caught so often and why his speed seems slightly reduced. He certainly doesn't change direction as well as he used to in his first season. Time in the VFL to gather some confidence in his knee and possibly work on his skills in a less pressured environment could really help him.

Our players wouldn't know a leader if he smacked them in the head. Seriously, look at who made it into the leadership group (Bruce, Yze) and who didn't (Green, Jones, Rivers). This in itself is a whole separate issue, which still does not change the fact that Bruce (who regardless of contract status can still be traded Mono!) is no longer skilled enough to be an integral part of our future.

The Herald Sun's credibility is up there with Jeff Kennet's. The idiot who wrote the match report probably looked at the stats and listed the top 5 possession getters in the best. Statistics don't impress me, when I go to games and see with my very own eyes the number of poor decisions made by senior leadership. The number of miss-kicks, the number of dodgy handballs that result in teammates being driven into the hard turf of Telstra Dome. Jeff White is up there for hit outs this year, and yet his output this season has been pretty unimpressive. Garland probably only gets a handful of possessions a game, but has only conceded 8 goals this season. So you tell me just what the stat sheets really tell us. As I said, Bruce certainly racks them up. There is never and has never been an issue of him not finding the ball. And he has fantastic endurance, which allows him to run all day. Again, this has never been in dispute. However, his skills are just not up to scratch, and if it's ok for supporters to blast the likes of Miller, Jamar, Bell and Bartram, who combined have played less games than Bruce, than why shouldn't we raise this issue when it concerns Bruce? As the captain of this football club it is his responsibility to lead the way with his attack on the ball and his disposable. Statistics won't show you that when we're struggling, Bruce is not found on the bottom of packs getting the hard balls. Statistics will show that yes, he got 21 touches today, but let me tell you his influence on the match equaled that of the umpire of gave Luke Ball 7 free kicks. I saw it with my own eyes, and the dozens of Melbourne supporters around me felt the same way. At his age, he is unlikely to ever part-take in an MFC premiership, and it is therefore time to cut our losses and move on. Having said all that, he is certainly not alone in the 'move on' basket.

Is really struggling, no doubt, but we need to persist with him. He had two very serious injuries which he is still recovering from, one of which will permanently affect his career (the knee). That he even made it back is a miracle, as I've spoken to a few Melbourne people over the course of last year who said he might never play football again. As a purely defensive player he is fairly good. Look at the job he did on McLeod just two weeks ago. As an attacking player he leaves a lot to be desired, but again we forget that he is affectively a second year player who has only done one full pre-season since he came to the club. He was a late pick and played every game in his debut year and was absolutely fantastic. He deserves some leniency before we label him useless!

Agreed. Add *insert name of mediocore player* to that list

So let me get this straight, you went to the match, you saw Bruce's 21 possessions and you are now suggesting he had a good game? Statistics will show his disposal was effective 76% of the time, statistics won't show the number of disposals that put teammates under pressure, the number of times he took the wrong option, and the number of times he chose not to man-up on his opponent. So he only turned the ball over 23% of the time, but that does not mean that for the rest of the time he made his possessions count. Moloney, Yze, Sylvia and White are hardly the sort of players that one would aspire to compare to. Yze is selfish, White is on his last leg, Moloney is the greatest waster of disposals in Melbourne and Sylvia has done nothing in 5 seasons. As for Jones, when Bruce finds himself winning the contested ball 9 out of 10 times and is put under the same pressure that Jones is under, come back to me with their respective statistics (also when Bruce turns 20 again we can make the same comparison). I know that because Yze_Magic started this thread, it's very tempting to refute his argument, however so far not one person has been able to argue with him because Bruce was terrible and his disposal and effectiveness has been terrible all season long, even if he is racking up double figure possessions... Godfrey used to as well you know. That he is a leader of this club only makes his glaring deficiencies harder to swallow.

Thank god Byron Pickett is gone. He'd look like the Good-Year blimp in that thing. I don't mind the use of silver, but our club's jumper should ALWAYS feature red and blue more prominently than any other colour. Why Eddie can have his way and we have to subject our players to wearing a jumper that puts on 15kgs is beyond me. Also, all long-sleeve versions of that thing must be burnt at once. Makes us look like a bunch of elephants running around.

My favourite game of the year, apart from finals of course (finals? what's that? ). I have 2 exams the next day, so I'll be studying at half time. I think that's a fair compromise

Sylvia, Newton and Bell should be put on the market. I'd take a second round pick for any of these (although we'll be lucky to get a third round pick for Newton). Additionally, anyone over the age of 28 can pack their bags. If Robbo can come back from injury, he stays because he is still contracted and frankly he is the only forward we've got. Junior can have another year if he so wishes. White, Yze and Holland should be forced to retire. Bruce should be traded, get whatever we can while we can. Likewise Carroll. Whelan may well retire if he can't get himself on the field. Jamar is contracted I believe, and IMO he is an insurance policy we have to have. Get as many draft picks as possible and keep building around our core group of under 23's. It's the only thing we can do to ensure we survive in the long term.

I did not absolve him of responsibility, I was simply pointing out that once again he got very little help. Players are not helping him or protecting him at the bounce. Unlike Luke Ball he is not protected by the umpires, and he can't be expected to win all the clearances on his own. Yes we were smashed in the middle, and yes McLean is absolutely partly responsible for that, but why does the blame always fall on his shoulders? When was the last time our brilliant ruck duo got us an effective tap? I was almost missing Jamar's physicality out there! Maybe he won't ever be the star midfielder we are looking for, but to be the number one tagged player each week, at 22, must be very frustrating when you are surrounded by senior players who don't put their bodies on the line and don't get their face smashed into the turf every 5 minutes. The reality is that if we keep relying and looking to him to win us the majority of clearances every week, we'll be bitterly disappointed. Maybe that's why so many supporters are picking on every average game he has, instead of looking at the big picture. The fish always rots from the head, and when your leaders are not putting in, why should anyone else? I don't think it's a secret that McLean is one of my favourite players, but I also don't think it's a secret that McLean works harder than most on the field and for that I command him. We reward fancy underachievers far too much at the MFC... like the supporters who actually command Yze on kicking 3 goals today. Give me a break!

Adem Yze? Some of you must be really thrilled when a player does nothing team- oriented but kicks 3 cheap goals, two from dubious frees, one in junk-time.

6- Junior 5- PJ 4- Garland (conceded 8 goals for the whole season he has!) 3- McLean 2- Warnock 1- Wheatley

Leave him in Sandy FFS! They dropped Valenti, who ok, wasn't setting the world on fire but who at least chased, tackled and put his body on the line, and rewarded Yze with a game. It's like the Daniher 'back your senior players at all costs' era all over again. Hopefully this was Bailey's way of saying "here's your chance to prove you can change". He hasn't. He's done.

Yeah, good luck with that! Here's a radical idea, since Garland, Warnock and Frawley are showing a bit and starting to really settle down and work together, why not try Rivers up forward? He can mark, he can kick and he can read the play better than anyone else at the club. At the very least he can lead to the right area and create some space for the other forwards. Newton is not someone we can rely on IMO.

Did you enjoy Yze's game today? I was really hoping something would change in him after his long absence from senior footy, but I guess a leopard doesn't change his spots. You gotta hand it to him though, the man sure does know how to get those free kicks working for him!

Nobody speak about this like it is career ending, please. It's bad enough we had to farewell Neita in a car, this better not happen with Robbo too! This season is just a massive pile of crap

That long sleeve jumper made him look like a pregnant midget.

I'm sure one of my fellow mods will delete this thread, and I'm sure many posters will go on the attack and abuse you because you really do sound like a broken record on this issue, however it's very difficult to disagree. He is having a terrible season. His disposal is really below-standard now, and his decision making is poor. What annoys me most though, is that he has been given the role of co-captaining the club, when there are a handful of players more worthy of the job. Having said all that, he is hardly the only senior player who is struggling. Our biggest mistake is holding onto players for far too long, and not knowing when to cut our losses. Now we're stuck with players on big money, who do very little.

Today was insipid. Our senior players, with the exception of poor old James McDonald should be ashamed of themselves. Week in week out they give us nothing. White, Bruce, Yze (typically getting his goals from frees and refusing to man-up the whole match), even Green had a poor game today. They just do not put in consistently, and they cost us. Once again McLean is left on his own to win the clearances, and we get smashed. Nobody was putting the pressure on the ball carrier, manning-up was a foreign concept, and we reverted back to the Neale Daniher days of just bombing it long to absolutely nobody! Once more we got out-tackled, and out-marked. I know it's easy to blame Bailey when we're playing such poor football, but last week's match against Hawthorn (and our game against Geelong) proved that his game style is the way to go and that we are capable of playing well against the best teams in the league. The challenge is to get our players to have the same level of commitment week in, week out. Daniher couldn't do it, let's see whether Bailey can, or alternatively whether he weeds out the main offenders. Paul Johnson & Colin Garland (again!) are the only two players who made the game worth watching. With apologies to Junior and Brock who continue to battle on their own.

That is not at all what I was implying. I know you're a fan of McLean, because I know how much you love hard working midfielders who win the contested ball consistently and have good disposal. I was simply continuing the discussion and raising my views as to why I think he still has what it takes to be elite. You don't pull equal numbers to Judd in terms of possessions at 20 if you don't have what it takes to be elite. Speaking of Black, I did a quick search and it turns out that McLean is pulling equal stats to what Black was in his 5th season. Now obviously stats are not the whole story, but it's interesting none the less. But as if I would dare argue with you!

His lack of pace is not so much of an issue when he is able to get first hands on the ball, it's when we're getting smashed through the middle that he looks slow. However he was never recruited for his pace, so it's not as if we're discovering anything new here. When other players start to take some heat off him (and Jones), he'll look a fair bit faster. As for lack of awareness, I think that when a player such as McLean whos disposal is above average, and whos understanding of where to kick is generally pretty spot on, is not presented with enough opportunities up the field, he prefers to hold up the footy than to kick and turn it over. When players are presenting forward of the ball, like they were against the Hawks, he usually hits them on the chest. When we play like a bunch of deers caught in headlights is when he looks very slow and gets caught from behind. If he had Judd's pace he would be... well... Judd. Sadly that will just never happen, but IMO it will not stop him from being an elite midfielder. Pace is simply a buzz word going around in football at the moment. The ability to win the contested ball CONSISTENTLY has always been a requirement for top midfielders, and that will never change.

Just rang Ticketmaster and there are plenty of general admin tickets available according to the person I spoke to. So I'm not sure where you got your information from?

Jonathan Brown's troubled contract negotiations are on the front cover of The Age sports' section. So forget Kerr, get me Jonathan Brown!!!