binman

That's what we need some more off.

Def elite kick - didn't miss a target in any of those clips!

My sense is Billings is an excellent kick, but that may well be becuase i haven't really paid that much attention to him. Where would posters rate him on the dees elite kicking scale, with 0 being Tmac playing at CHB and 10 being Mcvee (do others agree he is now our best kick?)?

There would be a certain level of irony in trading in a player with similar attributes to Wattsy.

Exactly. I like the way we've played this. Petty's messaging has been poor. Ours hasn't. Hard ball. We have the whip hand with two full years on his contract. Never anything but clarity from us - he is staying. If we are in this same situation again this time next year the crows and Petty know we mean business. Dixon will surely be close to retirement at port and they also need another gun defender to shore up their pathetic defence. Maybe two SA clubs will be keen. And it should be remembered that whilst the crows floated stupid money for petty, which he may not get offered again, it's not as if they were really going to offer us much this season trade wise. No reason to think with two suitors we wouldn't get as good a deal, if not better, next year. And we will still have the whip hand. Of course you don't want players who don't want to be there but it's important to send a message - to other clubs, player managers and players. If he wants to go but a deal can't be done that satisfies us then stuff him. Jvr will be another year closer to his prime. Hopefully Jefferson has come on. Disco Turner will be a regular in the team. If we feel compelled to keep Petty because a deal can't be done that suits us then we afford to play hard ball and play him at Casey if that's how Petty wants to play it. And besides its not as if we don't have leverage in that scenario. No doubt there are performance triggers in petty's contract (eg bluey votes, senior games) he would be risking if he isnt all in. Any injury might sour a trade. And Adelaide might cool on him if he was forced to honour his contract.

Adelaide premiership defender Najwa Allen has been suspended for three matches. In a ten game season 3 matches is the equivalent of 7 or 8 in the AFL. Blimey, that's tough. Good for us though

Well we got a steal with JVR then given he compares favourably with Brown at the same age!

Worth considering. Someone suggested getting mcvee on ball, or perhaps as a winger/utility, which i reckon has a lot of merit. With his poise and beautiful foot skills (our best kick this season?) the forwards would love him having that last kick inside 50.

I refuse to list what Goodwin should be doing about that from a list point of view? Refuse? Refuse who? You? You seem to paint anyone who sees things in more positive light than you in such black and whiter terms. And paint yourself as clear eyed and able to see what noobs such as myself are too blindly loyal to see. As if i do nothing but praise the club and refuse to see or acknowledge any weaknesses. (by the by, i don't think other clubs 'copied our game plan' and have never said they have. I HAVE said on many occasions that we copied the Tigers game plan and that the model developed by Hardwick is the template for the way the game is now played). C'mon Jimmy such reductive, black and white nonsense is so puerile. It is why i don't bother engaging in any meaningful discussion with you any more. You don't seem to be interested in genuine discussion. You seem to prefer baiting, being obtuse and unnecessarily contrarian. It's tiresome. But each to their own i guess. But i'll bite this time. So, to your point about me 'refusing' to 'list what Goodwin should be doing about that from a list point of view'. For one thing, if you had been paying attention, i have banging on about our poor kicking skills ever since i started posting on DL 13 years ago. And more recently i have addressed what i see as our key list needs on multiple occasions. For example, for your reading pleasure please see these three recent examples (let me know if you want some more):

I 100% agree on the first point. I would argue the key reasons we didn't take advantage of our midfield and defensive dominance during big games were: our poor field kicking in general, which meant we were matched or beaten on scores from turnover - something that barely happened all season poor final kicks inside 50 our mids and utilities not scoring enough goals our woeful accuracy from set shots and shots from general play As for the second point, that is what I'm talking about in terms of all finalists, with the slight exception of the Lions, basically employing the same game plan. Come the pointy end of the season ALL teams, except the lions against Port, struggled to score from the back half because the game plan involved territory and trapping in the front half as much as possible. In our QF against the Pies and semi against the Blues we were actually better at transitioning and scoring from the back half - and on turnover too. The problem was we were scoring points not goals. The Pies and Blues were more accurate (an old fashioned word for the stupidest and most misleading word in footy - efficiency) and took their chances. And as a result both won.

Never rated him. Do now.

As good as saying he's not interested in discussion? Perhaps I've missed it but the closest thing I've read from sb suggesting he doesn't 'see the point in anything other than unbridled optimism' is: 'I think there is room for optimism and frankly I can't see the point, as supporters, viewing it any other way.' Unbridled optimism is a long way from room for optimism. Misrepresenting people's comments, a pet hate of mine, is hardly conducive to creating a good discussion.

I've heard from a reliable source the real reason McAdam wanted out of the crows was so he never again had to wear that God awful yellow clash strip.

This is the biggest myth going around. Does my head in. Weren't people watching the finals? In nine finals there were only two games where a team kicked more than 100 points - the Lions shellacking of Port at the Gabba and the Giants getting on top of the saints and kicking 101 points. Come the finals every contender was basically playing a variation of the same game plan the dees employ. Arguably only the Lions game plan was noticeably different with their preference for hitting up short kicks and trying to keep the forward line open (and even then it had the same fundamentals). This is particularly true of the Pies, who once they lost their fitness advantage near the end of the season basically had almost exactly the same game plan as ours for the last third of the season - defence first, forward half, get territory, contested, intercept, turnover, super high pressure footy. In the grand final the Lions tried to negate that style by putting speed on the ball and the game was more open as a result - and resembled the game plan the Pies employed in the first half of the season. But the second half reverted to script and the Pies turned it into an arm wrestle and used the same game plan as the dees. Just look at the Pies scoring in the last third of the season. In the first third of the season everyone was seduced by their fast transition from the back half and their high octane offence. In their 3 finals they averaged a touch under 70 points per game.

I'll be the judge of that.

The JVR Curnow comparison at the same age: Player Statistics Comparison Jacob Van Rooyen Name Charlie Curnow Melbourne Demons Team Carlton Blues Forward Position Forward 20 Career Games 110 Claremont Origin Geelong Falcons April 16, 2003 Date of Birth February 3, 1997 20yr 6mth Age Turned 20 in 2017 193cm Height 192cm 91kg Weight 92kg 2021 National Draft Last Drafted In 2015 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 1, Pick #12 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Carlton Blues 2023 Stats for Season 2017 20 Games 21 4.5 Kicks 9.9 4.2 Handballs 4.3 8.7 Disposals 14.1 3.1 Marks 5.7 1.4 Goals 0.9 0.5 Behinds 0.6 2.1 Tackles 2.9 3.7 Hitouts 0.3 1.2 Inside 50s 2.8 0.3 Goal Assists 0.6 0.9 Frees For 1.2 0.8 Frees Against 1.1 4.3 Contested Possessions 6.5 4.8 Uncontested Possessions 7.8 6.8 Effective Disposals 10.9 78.2% Disposal Efficiency % 77.3% 1.6 Clangers 2.2 0.9 Contested Marks 1.7 1.5 Marks Inside 50 1.2 0.3 Clearances 0.5 0 Rebound 50s 0.6 2.1 One Percenters 1.1 0 Bounces 0.1 74.0 Time On Ground % 82.7 0.1 Centre Clearances 0.1 0.2 Stoppage Clearances 0.4 4.0 Score Involvements 4.7 113.0 Metres Gained 249.1 1.5 Turnovers 3.1 0.5 Intercepts 2.2 1.1 Tackles Inside 50 0.7 50.9 AFL Fantasy Score 71.2 63.1 Supercoach Score 74.2

I find this tweet interesting in terms of it being fairly representative of what I see as JVR being underrated by many in the media, and even some DL posters. It's almost as if some have forgotten next season will be just his third at an AFL club and that he has only played one season at AFL level. One of the maxims of footy is key position players take time to develop. Perhaps JVR gets marked down becuase he is not that tall but his first season at AFL level was, by any historical measure, incredible for a key forward. The last two key forwards i can think of that had a similar impact so early were probably Charlie Curnow and Jesse Hogan. I'm no doubt forgetting some players but in my mind i have to go back to Johnathan Brown for a key forward that had the impact of JVR at the same age. Brown is actually a pretty good comparison. He was heavier but about the same height and like JVR wasn't a high draft pick. And JVR plays in a similar way - super competitive, wills himself to the contest, and uses his strength in marking contests. And their numbers when both 20 are pretty similar (by the by in this comparison it's worth noting the key difference is Brown averaged more mark per game. But all key forward would have taken more marks because there were no defensive zones being used and much more pure one on ones. More possessions too, which i think is reasonable knock on JVR's game. That said JVR clearly did more ruck work, which is impressive given he is 10kg lighter than Brown at the same age) Player Statistics Comparison Jacob Van Rooyen Name Jonathan Brown Melbourne Demons Team Brisbane Lions Forward Position Forward 20 Career Games 256 Claremont Origin Geelong Falcons April 16, 2003 Date of Birth October 29, 1981 20yr 6mth Age Turned 20 in 2001 193cm Height 194cm 91kg Weight 102kg 2021 National Draft Last Drafted In 1999 National Draft Round 1, Pick #19 Last Draft Position Round 2, Pick #30 Melbourne Demons Last Drafted By Brisbane Lions 2023 Stats for Season 2001 20 Games 25 4.5 Kicks 8.7 4.2 Handballs 5.2 8.7 Disposals 13.9 3.1 Marks 6.3 1.4 Goals 1.5 0.5 Behinds 0.9 2.1 Tackles 1.2 3.7 Hitouts 0.7 Brown went on to become a generational player. I'm not saying JVR will too but i am saying that in all likelihood, with another preseason - only his second full one - he will significantly improve next season. He will be stronger - and perhaps even more importantly fitter meaning he will be less prone to fading towards the end of the season as happened this year and will get to more contests which will mean more possessions. And he will get bigger too - broader across the shoulders and perhaps heavier. And that growth will continue until he he is 24-25 like it does for all bigs. He'll have way more impact next season and will continue to do so year on year until his mid twenties. Some might say beware the second year blues, but it's not his second year next season, its his third. A big tick for the way the club has handled his development. My point is that in terms of assessing our forward line the narrative and/or implication seems be that JVR will not offer anymore than he did this season and is not a player to build a forward line around. That may be prove to be true i guess but significant improvement is much more likely when you consider the trajectory of other gun key forwards. And if he does go up a level, a forward line with JVR and Petty as the two key forward matches up pretty well against any other team in the AFL, particularly given the role of the key forward now is almost more about ensuring the opposition don't intercept mark than kick goals. You only need to look at who scored goals during the finals for evidence of that. Looking at the 8 finalists, and the crows because they are on the up and the cats just because, the two key forwards for each team are: Pies: Miochek and Mcstay Lions: Daniher and Hipwood Blues: Curnow and Mckay Port: Marshall and Dixon Giants: Hogan and Riccardi (?) Swans: Amartey and Mcdonald Saints: King and Owens Crows: Walker and Fogerty Cats: Hawkins and Cameron Of that list i would argue only the Blues, Lions and Saints two keys will likely be better next season than JVR and Petty. But not miles better, particularly given come the high pressure, forward half, defensive footy being played in finals bigs struggle to get one on one marking opportunities or kick goals. By way of example of that latter point few would argue that Carlton don't have the two best tall forwards in McKay and Curnow. Noting that Mckay only played 2 finals, across the Blues' three finals they could only manage a combined 5 goals between them (Curnow 3, Mackay 2). To be fair De Koning kicked two in the dees game when he was basically replacing Mckay's role. So lets say 7 across three finals for their two key talls. Hardly earth shattering. By the by its worth remembering we didn't have JVR or Petty in the semi. Instead we had Tmac (at least i'm pretty sure i saw him) and Smith (!) as our two key talls. And we still should have won!

So much time....

How noble of them to abandon their pursuit of a contracted player at a rival club. What a stand up club.

Tracc, Clarry and Max were our three worst in terms of kicks inside 50 to score ratio. Not sure where Gus ranked but i doubt he set the work on fire in that area. Our best? Nibbla.

Agree. I'd add that a key difference between us and the two grand finalists is that both the Lions and Pies have goal kicking mids and utilities/half forward flankers. We don't. More than half the goals in the grand final were kicked by such players. On a perfect day for footy key tall forwards only contributed 4 of the 25 goals kicked (Daniher 3 and Mihocek 1). Hill and Cameron, both small crumbing forwards, kicked 7 between them, meaning the two forward lines (ie specialist forwards) combined only contributed 11 of the 25 goals kicked. Mids and utilities/half forward flankers contributed 14 of the 25 goals kicked: Collingwood: Hill 4, Crisp 2, De Goey 2, N.Daicos, Mihocek, Pendlebury, Sidebottom Brisbane: Cameron 3, Daniher 3, Bailey 2, McCarthy 2, McCluggage 2, Robertson Compare the above to our goals in the semi against the blues (also perfect conditions), where only two of our goals came from non forwards (compared to the Blues 5): Melbourne: Smith 3, Pickett 2, Fritsch 2, Langdon, Petracca Carlton: De Koning 2, Walsh 2, Motlop 2, Acres 2, Kennedy, Curnow, Owies We have a much, much greater need for goal kicking mids and utilities/half forward flankers (eg Bailey, McCarthy, McCluggage, Daicos etc) that can also reliably hit targets than we do for key forwards.

Early next year i think was the qualifier (ie as opposed to next season). I hope that proves to be correct

Forget us posters. How about the professionals whose full time job is to make list decisions that help us win a flag. It would appear these professionals have seemingly determined a key forward is not a major priority. Given the comparative expertise of your average DL poster and the recruiting team at the elite AFL level i think it is reasonable to put more weight in the latter's assessment of our current list needs. Ipso facto, i'm happy to go with trading in a key forward is not not a major priority. In other words she’ll be right.

Repeat after me. We. Do. Not. Have. Forward. Line. Issues. A forward line with Petty, Fritter, JVR, Koz, Nibbla and Chandler is easily as strong as the Pies forward line that netted them a flag: Mihocek, Elliott, Hill, McCreery, Ginivan and Frampton. Even if you swap Frampton for McStay, it is still no better than our lineup And that's not even factoring in that despite being completely written of by most fans both Tmac and BB could still offer something next year and Jefferson is still developing. Which is not to say a gun key forward wouldn't help, but for good reason it clearly isn't a major priority.

What would Taylor know?