binman

Yep. And it is worth noting in this context that in the first quarter against the Swans, before fatigue really starts becoming a real problem, we blitzed the Swans because our system was functioning. As fatigue set in we progressively lost our capacity to maintain our system allowing the Swans back into the game. At the end of the first quarter we were 21 points up. We only scored four more goals for the match and only two in the second half. The Freo game followed a similar pattern, though we blitzed them in the second quarter. We were 25 points up at half time. Again fatigue sets in, our capacity to maintain our system falls away and we can only manage one goal for the rest of the match. And just as the swans did, Freo run away with the game and look a million dollars (they could manage only two goals in the first half but piled on 12 in the second half). We have scored three goals in total in the second half of the last two games. And given up 16. Sure both Freo and the Swans played great - their pressure and game plans were first class. And the players and coaching teams deserve a huge amount of credit. But 3 goals to 16 across four second half quarters? That's not how we roll when we are up and about.

Elliot is too strong and too good one on one for hunt i reckon. Hibbo would be the match up for Elliot - can match him for strength and is excellent one on one. I'd go Hiiberd in, and plays on Elliot. And Hunt goes to Ginnivan.

Sums up my feeling perfectly (well, perhaps not the love Melk part, but i do like him).

Sounds like a Scottish Clash cover's band

I'd add to AF's terrific post that the other two key elements connecting our defence and offence is the incredible amount of all team running we do and our transition game (when at our best). Goody talks about the three phases. Defence is one, transition another and offence the third phase. Our mids, half forwards, wingers - hell even players like Brown - all push back deep into defence in numbers to help. This up and down the ground running, which more often than not is unrewarded (in an individual not team sense), is incredibly taxing. Watch spargo in a game when next watching live to get a sense of that. Of course that commitment helps our defence and increases our chances of winning ground balls in our back half. But it is also is a key part of our offence, and when fully wound up a big driver of our capacity to score quickly and heavily. That's because when we win the ball in our back half and then transition, the wave of players that have pushed back, sweeps forward. We run in waves and whoever has the ball usually has multiple team mates running parallel or slightly forward - almost like rugby union. Freo and the Swans (and the Hawks for that matter) generate one on ones up forward though quick, precision kicking - if possible through the corridor (though freo also have elements of our swarm, which is one reason why they can be so damaging - they have two methods of transitioning the ball). We do the same, but move the ball quickly with less precision ball movement and more swarm and that wave of players sweeping forward. Think Langdon tight on the boundary on the hb, flipping it to kozzie, who flips it back, and so on. Suddenly we are at the wing or our hf line and have multiple options. We can kick to a lead up flanker or tall. or go deep inside our 50 and if we don't mark or crumb it, create a stoppage and as AF notes, trap it inside our 50 (which also requires us to be at full fitness to work properly). But that wave, swarm running when on, also creates lots of one on ones and often free players inside our 50. Think of our goals early this season when a player kicking inside 50 has multiple free options to kick to. This happens because oppo players, particularly late in games, literally can't go with their direct opponent and are left gassed and trailing behind them. It looks as if we have extra players on the ground and is thrilling to watch. And it is all built on all team gut running and selflessness in the sense that most of that running is unrewarded in an individual sense (eg the off side winger may not touch the ball for big blocks of time, but has to do the running for the system to work because, one he provides an outlet option, and two his opponent has to go with him) Because our opposition has to go with us all game we exhaust them, and as so often happens, opposition teams just hit the wall. And when they do, like in the grand final, our offence looks a million dollars because we sweep it forward with ease and the opposition can't get back quick enough to clog up our forward line. If, across the board, we are fatigued, all that wave running and swarm breaks down. It impacts every part of our game, but arguably our offence most of all. When we can't swarm, our forward line looks stodgy and always crowded. And Brown for instance is always flying in a pack with our players and theirs (because that is our method - when in doubt kick to a pack and win the ground ball). Tmac is a huge out, and the main reason is he does a huge amount of up and down the ground running and his opponent can't go with him.

This one?

In terms of scoring, i reckon our game plan makes us more susceptible to problems with our offence as our offence is reliant on our defensive system working. And fatigue makes it all but impossible for our defensive system to work properly becuase we struggle to stop teams' hitting up free players and once they do, hold that player up, meaning we struggle to stop opposition transition.

Scoring yes. But their defence has been woeful The hawks put 117 points past them

Yep. Our round 15 clash against them will be interesting.

Again, no one is linking ALL form to training loads. But i honestly cant understand how you can accept we are loading, but not accept, despite the evidence (eg our form slump this year and last year, and the obvious fatigue) that doing so is almost certainly going to negatively impact our form, and therefore our chances of winning. Loading fatigues players. That is undeniable fact. Fatigue, in any sport, negatively impacts skill execution and decision making and exacerbates any issues (ability to play a role, cohesiveness, injuries, illness etc etc) a team or individual might be battling with. It is harder to win when fatigued. I tried to bump this thread, but im not sure why i can't see it on my home page. But it is worth scanning because the questions now being asked about our from slump were all being asked last season (the date the thread began and ended is interesting, and suggests we have a few more weeks of sub optimal performance to endure - buckle up).

I simply do not understand how you could argue this is the case. There has been any number of posts from people saying loading happens - this year and last year (and exaclth the same pont in the season). I have not read ANY comments that even remotely supports the idea that loading discussion inevitably comes with a 'relax we've got this' attitude. Can you provide an example?

Not trying to be facetious here, but what will time tell you? Your mind appears made up on the matter. You seemingly haven't been convinced by the evidence or arguments about loading. What on field evidence would change that view? Nor does the fact that noone who poo poos the idea of loading seems to have provided a convincing counter argument for why we, the fittest side in the AFL, suddenly look so obviously lethargic and fatigued at exactly the same point as last year. If, from round 17 or 18 we suddenly look super great, are running out games better than the opposition, playing great footy and winning, will you take that as evidence we loaded? I doubt it You might argue we fixed the issues that caused the form slump and maybe put the very evident mid season fatigue down to it being a long season and they just lost focus. And if we never get back to our best you might say, see its not loading, we're just rubbish, or perhaps say something like, well if we were loading it clearly didn’t work.

Which is EXACTLY what happened last year. As I posted earlier in this thread we played the pies on Queen' birthday, were flat as a pancake, could only manage 63 points and conceded 25 scoring shots (80 points) against the most dour offence in the afl in 2021. And lost. Then we had our bye in round 14. We scrapped over the line against the bombers, only scoring 68 points, in round 15 and got rolled by the giants in round 16 (only scoring 55 points). We beat Port in round 17 by 5 odd goals, after which maxy was asked about the turn around and mentioned the impact of a big black of training in the previous weeks.

The post from -Coach- doesn’t sway you Bing?

A very commendable philosophy. Unfortunately, in this post truth age, it is a philosophy that an increasing number of people wholly reject.

Insert drop the mic gif here.

The dees were ahead of our time. We loaded for two decades in the 70s and 80s, tapered in the 90s, noughties and right up to round 16 last year And won the flag in 2021.

I will edit my comments to say a minimum 9 days. It doesn't change the substance of my argument.

No one is saying loading is the only reason for our form slump. Of course there are other factors. Regardless of the cause, we were clearly more fatigued against freo and the swans, as evidenced by being run over by by both teams in the second half. Something that simply did not happen in rounds 1 to 10 last year and this year, or from round 18 last year. Our game plan does not work with the level of fatigue we saw on Saturday night. But come the pointy end of the season, fatigue won't be an issue. You only need to remember how well we ran out games from round 18 last year (not one team, including other top 4 sides, could go with us in second halves - we were far the fittest side) to get a sense of how things will turn. And it is not an excuse for the losses. It is a factor to help explain our sub optimal performance.

And thst us exactly why they use the bye period. Makes perfect sense. It is at the half way point if the home and away season. And it is the one opportunity where all of the best 22 players cam get a minimum nine day break from playing, so recovery from the game does not have to be factored into and they go extra hard in the first week knowing they don't have a game to worry about.

Nup, we were definitely loading at the same point ladt year. Yes, we rolled the lions in round 12, but were flat, down by 4 goals at half time and only won because we were unusually aggressive with our ball movement (much more corridor use than normal). And perhaps the lions were loading and ran out of gas We then played the pies on Queen' birthday, were flat as a pancake, could only manage 63 points and conceded 25 scoring shots (80 points) against the most dour offence in the afl in 2021. And lost. Then we had our bye in round 14. We scrapped over the line against the bombers, only scoring 68 points, in round 15 and got rolled by the giants in round 16 (only scoring 55 points). We beat Port in round 17 by 5 odd goals, after which maxy was asked about the turn around and mentioned the impact of a big black of training in the previous weeks.

It is also a factor (not the only one obviously, talent being thesin one) why so many teams who finish 5-8 hit the wall in finals and if they make it through the first week (when they play teams with similar preparations) get smashed the following week, like esendon ladt year, who were level at half time before completed running out of gas in the second half and barely scoring).

Bumping this thread as it interesting to read how many of the same issues were occurring from June through end of July last year. For example Watson11 notes in that thread, our scores from turnovers (as he notes, scores from turnovers fundamental of our game) fell off a cliff in thta perid last year, just as they did against the Swans Other examples include, trouble scoring, sudden very stodgy and slow ball movement, fumbles, our stars output dropping and Jackson falling away. Regardless of what you think the causes are for those issues, the important take away is that the last post in a thread about our slump in form was 1 August 2021. The same day we clicked into gear, destroyed the suns by over 100 points, smashed every team after that on our way to our first premiership in 57 years. There wasn't much talk about form slumps after that last post.

That's a somewhat disingenuous use of quotes (ie the bit you highlighted in your post i have quoted above) The full context was: 'A coach or player coming out and saying they are loading? Well that's not going to happen.' But, in any case i've tapped out of the discussion. Happy for you to reject my theory. (but if i was going to point you to a footballer who says loading happens, i'd recommended you chase up the clip of Jack Riewoldt on AFL 360 from i think 2019 or 2020, who is directly asked about loading and all but confirms they always loaded mid season. Which explains why they had a mid season slump in form in each of their three premiership years. Well it does for me - others might think it is just a weird coincidence) (I'd also add that your 'Seasonal Training-Load Quantification in Elite English Premier League Soccer Players' example is not particularly relevant for this discussion. They don't have a grand final in the EPL- unlike the AFL every game is a must win and as such there is no need to peak for one game at season's end. Though I'd bet my bottom dollar that the big clubs in contention for tbe UEFA Champions league title, the most covered in world soccer outside the world cup use loading to get their best 11 cherry ripe for the final)

After these final four comments, I'm tapping out of the loading discussion, because i'm probably coming across as some crazy loading proselyting zealot. I'm happy to stick with my theory, and happy for others to have theirs of course. The first comment is to reinforce that i am not looking to make excuses for the poor performance of the team, rather looking to identify the reason for the drop off. We all know the symptoms (fumbles, poor decision making, hard to score, easy to score against etc etc) and i think my theory is the most logical explanation to help explain those symptoms. The second comment relates to the first - loading is not the only reason for our poor performance. LH listed a number of excellent factors that contributed to our poor performance in the last two weeks. I would say that fatigue related to additional training loads would exacerbate all of them. My final comment is a thought experiment. Lets imagine Australia's best 800 metre runner, Peter Bol was preparing to run in the Olympic 800 metre final on the last day of September, so of course wants to be at his absolute cherry ripe best on that date. And then lets imagine he has the first race of his European running season in late March. As someone who makes his living from professional running, Peter is desperate to win that race and earn the ranking points and the cash prizes. So of course, he has done a huge block of preseason training to be cherry ripe for the first race of the season to maximize his chance of winning that race. It is not feasible, however, for him to remain at that level for six months. To be cherry ripe for the 800 metre final on the last day of September, Peter is going to have stop racing at some point and do another heavy block of training, and then taper so he is both fresh and at the optimal fitness level, come grand final day. All that is accepted wisdom. It is uncontested the AFL is one of the most aerobically challenging football codes. The average player runs anywhere between 12 to 20 kilometers per game, which is incredible really. The training and athleticism required to achieve those sort of distances for 6 months in competition is comparable, i would have thought, to that of elite, world class runners. Given, that, and the fact that AFL football teams have performance management programs and experts the equal of any in the world (if not in resources certainly in output) why would AFL clubs NOT replicate what is accepted practice (based on decades of research and experience) in analogous sports (eg running, swimming) requiring equivalent fitness levels and the need to peak at the start of the season and again for their grand final? My last comment is that these exact same discussions were being had on DL at this point last season. We looked fatigued then and played sub optimally until round 18 (1 August 2021) when we got going and pulverized the Suns with our swarm. We maintained that level until the very last minute of the GF. My expectation is that, injuries notwithstanding, our 2022 season will follow a similar trajectory.