DeeSpencer

Not sure about that, I think you have to fit most of it in the salary cap if you want the list spot. With 2 years left on his contract Vanders might well be redrafted the rookie list even if he does retire in order to spread the payments. If that's the case unless he really is done and happy to call it you might as well keep him on the list and can then put him on the inactive list prior to the season or prior to the mid season draft. All in all it's probably better to give him the summer to see if he gets right.

I said it earlier in this thread but I'll say it again. The supplemental list period allows clubs to have guys train with them before officially being listed. That's the move for Bennell. If his body holds up all summer and he's ready to play by March that's when you give him a contract.

Forget what he brings with his superb tackling and grunt - even if it comes with some shoddy kicking and decision making - he's proven capable of playing on the wing when so many others on the list can't and he's been part of a run of terrible injuries at that position. Vanders - out for the year with the foot Fritsch - needed to play back and now forward KK - missed pretty much all year with groin/concussion/concussion Stretch - foot JKH - misses the first 10 weeks with a knee Even young Nietschke who might've been an option did an ACL The best thing to see before this year was Fritsch and KK nailing inside 50 kicks on the wings in match simulation and knowing Vanders could provide that big body to rotate on the wing, forward and on ball. None of that's come true.

I'm not sure Beams is an A grader anymore. I think he's on about par with what Brayshaw should be doing but isn't and not that far off what Vanders could be doing, although that seems unlikely to happen again. We lack the competence that Mayne and Phillips bring to the wing for the Pies, that's our first area of deficiency. Then we're clearly inferior up forward. McDonald and Weidemen should provide us more than Mihocek and Cox but are both missing. Melksham probably equal if not better WHE when fully fit. Petracca and Fritsch are probably the closest thing to De Goey and Stephenson but they are different types of players. We're definitely short a dangerous crumber and some half forward class. Varcoe, Thomas and Elliot have all had their struggles this year but at least they are options and that's where the depth of our list has fallen away, but again, the guys we've had in those roles - Hannan, Spargo, Garlett, Lockhart - have all had a lot to overcome this year. Except for ANB, he's been a huge disappointment. Hunt's been ok, he's had moments of looking dangerous and good pressure. I'm not trying to defend the club for some of the list management, recruiting, coaching, injury management etc, but to me it's just not apples with apples to say both teams have similar injury lists now so should be playing similarly.

McDonald - DeGoey (best forward) Cox - Weideman Jetta - Langdon (back pocket) Beams/Sier (can’t play both) - Vanders Stevenson - Hannan Aish - Stretch or Joel Smith or Garlett or Spargo Moore - ? Lever Wells -KK - both theoretical afl players at this stage Not quite an equal comparison but not too far off if Lever doesn’t play. But I take issue with the idea that we are meant to be able to perform to the same level as a Collingwood side that: 1) was better than us last year and 2) has had a decent run for most of this year until recently. Our backline hasn’t had a chance to gel. When Moore and Howe both came out for the Pies they fell apart. Our inside mids have been short on fitness all year. It can’t just change. The Pies without Adams and Beams/Sier were shown up, but Pendles, Treloar and Sidebottom have been mostly healthy. Our outside mids have been a mess, how do fix it without talent? Our forward line has also been a mess. Part of that was coaching, but mostly talent. I’d like to see Fritsch, Melksham and Petracca do something against an undermanned Collingwood but without a tall to work around it might be hard. Look at the guys we are bringing in - Baker who didn’t do a preseason, JKh who missed 10 weeks, Dunkley signed mid year, Lockhart from Casey preseason. Hore who had ankle surgery In summer and recently broke his collar bone. Petty as a key forward. Lewis as a forward. The missing players might be in the Pies favour but the journey to where both teams are at isn’t.

Mid year he missed a couple of weeks and their were rumours he needed hip ops. First I've heard of it since though. Broken jaw may be a blessing in disguise if they were waiting to do them.

What????? A coach can be 70, morbidly obese and spend half their time on a mobility scooter and still do the job. 67 year old Bill Belichick or big Red Andy Reid wouldn't make good NFL assistants? Or 70 year old Greg Popovich in the NBA? Daniel Cross is a physical freak capable of doing rehab group training. Any else who's retired has almost instantly lost the ability chase, pressure and reproduce drills at AFL players levels. It's good to have fit and healthy younger coaches who can feed the balls in and demonstrate body positions but assistant coaches by and large aren't joining in drills. It's demonstrate the techniques then use the group of 40+ players to execute the drills. I'd be trying to bring a complimentary group in alongside Goodwin. A coach with experience like Richo makes sense, no one else on the MFC staff can give Goodwin advice on how to deal with senior coaching issues. And a young on the rise assistant with fresh ideas and ambition would make sense too. I'd take a close look at the non Victorian teams and look for a coach keen to come to Melbourne on the path to a senior job, that's Teague and Rhyce Shaw's pathway as well as another higher rated assistant in Justin Longmuir.

Maybe we won't trade him. Or maybe we've finally learnt a thing or two about negotiations. I'd trade him for a good deal, but I don't know about his mental state, confidence, fitness/health and any number of things that could be impacting his form that might be easier to fix than I think.

He's had some deeper forward moments lately, he isn't really getting any loose ball as a forward and with our ball movement I struggle to see him winning a lot of contests. Not to mention we can't have 2 Lewis' just cheating forward and hoping it works. Tagging worked against the Eagles, but he's not a great fit for Treloar and he's priority number 1 to stop carving us up through the middle. Pendles maybe? Half back is where he can find plenty of it and doesn't have to think too much, just stick to a man, get the ball and feed it out wide.

Pretty clear it's pushed not walked. But that doesn't mean it's a falling out as such. Macca had issues at the Dogs, but as much as anything they didn't win enough games, you don't win games and you move a coach on for the same kind of problems that can be fine if you're winning. Plus failing as a senior coach doesn't have a lot of bearing as an assistant. If it did then people wouldn't be nearly as excited as they seem to be for Bolton or Richardson.

A few people here unfamiliar with the concepts of either: A) Contracts And/or B) The footy department salary cap Not all of Rawlings, Chaplin, Mathews, Plapp etc will be going. Nor should they be. This is still the coaching group that had us playing some very good footy last year.

From watching trainings Macca was an important voice who stressed the fundamentals and had a good relationship with players where he'd boost them up or give them a rev depending on what was needed. I think the shame here is instead of sticking with a well defined role we moved him around and probably ended up having him in the way. Whoever we bring in we need to make sure the roles are clearly defined, that everyone is on board with the game plan and that training is well rounded.

Gus has 3 more years on what I assume is a pretty decent contract, are we sure anyone even wants to trade for him? If he was at another club I wouldn't be racing out to get him with anything like a top 25 pick. Especially given his concussion history it would be a huge risk based around a number of games in 2018 where he was really prolific and strong at winning the ball but hardly all that skilled. Right now he just doesn't have any pace or confidence. I'd probably play him half back and have the game come to him, he'll get some easy touches by reading the play and winning it. See if that keeps it simple for him for the last 3 weeks. Otherwise it has to be a lack of confidence and physical limitations because he looks so far off it. It's going to take some Darren Burgess miracle work and if it does go to plan that will mean more fitness and burst for Viney, Oliver, Petracca and Harmes as well and then they can all rotate through.

Exactly. Lever, Hore and Oscar in the same backline against the Tigers would've been terrible and only 1 of those was some chance of playing on Riewoldt so they put poor Oscar in to do it. And even though Hore is a mature player with plenty of VFL footy under his belt it probably doesn't kill him to go back and get 30 kicks. If we do play Lever and Hore together - and I think we should this week - then they both have to be ball users and provide rebound. I'm never been on the Lever is a superstar track but he's shown some really promising signs against West Coast, St Kilda and in the first half yesterday. These games are important to get his confidence and some game time in to him before next season. The idea he should've sat out half a season when healthy to make it the best part of 2 years missed is crazy.

The only case for giving them pick 2 is that they aren't a viable football club without it, in which case you have to ask if they are a viable football club with it? Would be making an absolute mockery of the competition given their list and results are both better than when Melbourne and Carlton were knocked back for a priority pick after 2 win seasons. If they really want pick 2 to get the best mates in together and fix player retention there's a very easy solution - they can trade Ben King (who sounds desperate to get out of their immediately) to us for pick 2. If we aren't interested in that straight up they can add Izak Rankine, Ben Ainsworth or Charlie Ballard for our future first. Or Bowes, or Martin, or Sexton, or Fiorini, or Powell, or Weller, or Lukosius in some deal. Compare those names to the list Roos took over at Melbourne, they are miles ahead. They have a stack of talent. Giving them even more in the hope they all stick is the exact reason PP's were taken out, teams can get it right and then they rocket to the top. Sliding them extra salary cap room in ambassador payments and having then nab a few handy free agents or good solid B grade players is the way to fairly turn them around with the young players they have already and pick 1.

Can we just start banning people who suggest Frost on the wing? It's absolutely ridiculous.

Out: Oscar, Lewis (rested), Preuss In: May, Hore, Lockhart Hore in down back, Hunt back forward. If Lever's no good then either Hunt/Brayshaw at half back and bring in Stretch. FB: Hibberd May Frost HB: Hore Lever Salem C: JKH Oliver Baker HF: Dunkley Melksham Petracca FF: Hunt Fritsch Petty Foll: Gawn Harmes Viney Int: Brayshaw, C Wagner, Jones, Lockhart Go small and quick up forward. Petty can ruck for 5 minutes a quarter against Cox.

Oscar McDonald can't keep with an opponent Frost can't stop brain fading Preuss can't do anything Lewis can't put his body on the line and compete Melksham was clearly rusty Dunkley is far from a natural wingman Petracca and Baker are only good in the midfield for under a half All of that and for a half we structured up well, moved the ball in to dangerous spots with clever counter attack getting space in the corridor and whilst they stuffed around with the ball the team Why we're so incompetent when the rain came - did we not have someone aware of conditions at half time - is indefensible. We were never going to win it when the rain came but we should've adapted faster and at least kept the game alive at 3/4 time, but whatever. In the first half we didn't set back and play safely down the line. We took the game on and moved the ball against a superbly organised Tigers defensive team. I wish we could play the Tigers every week. We get such a good look at who can and who can't match it when them. Lately that's meant getting embarrassed as it becomes clear we are a mile off them. Maybe I'm delusional but tonight I thought well.... get May and McDonald back, add a couple of outside runners and a small forward and we'd at least be a chance.

True, but if you wanted to get the most out of him as a midfielder you'd play him 70% to not over do him and have him play well before ramping it up. They're trying to get a heap of run in his legs with frequent midfield stints whilst also trying to keep the forward line potent. Difficult balancing act.

The numbers haven't made the big leap yet and he's still running out of puff after 3/4's but he's at least gone from wayward to far more predictable. There's no longer any doubt that he deserves his spot and that he'll make an impact. This summer might well be the making of him. We'll probably know by March if he's going to play another 100 games at a decent level in a difficult position at half forward or if he's going to become a mid/forward wrecking ball.

He's playing 88% game time and rotating through the midfield. I think they are doing that about as smartly as they can.

Your personal insults don’t bother me so I don’t care if you’re banned or not, do your best. That said. You haven’t actually provided an opinion on Hill’s value or anything about how he plays. 800k a season and a future first round pick that reasonable could be picks 7-12, might be higher or lower but that’s my guess, no thanks. He’ll be elite for <4 years, it’s too much for 80 games on the wing. 2 of the other top 5 wingmen right now: Ricky Henderson and Mitch Robinson. Both came free of charge. We’re like a team with no ruck going all out at maximum price. Richmond had no ruck - got Nankervis for stuff all. I support the May trade because gun key defenders are very hard to find. Meanwhile every team and every draft is full of guys who can get the job done on the wing. When the Hawks turned their list around in 2009-2012 they made one big item deal for Burgoyne. A superstar. Then they found value with Gunston, Gibson, Lake and eventually got Frawley for free. They got Tom Mitchell for a great price, that helped them. Paying overs for O’Meara and Wingard hasn’t.

31 goals in 18 games last year and 25 goals in 10 games this year with an injury lay off. Very hard to read much in to NEAFL numbers but it looks like he's finding the ball and hitting the scoreboard. If Cameron, Himmelberg and Finlayson are all sticking around then surely he'd be keen on moving.

Have you seen Karl Amon play this year? He's vastly improved. Kicks the ball better than Hill and is stronger at the contest. I didn't say Cutler was on Hill's level but he's another option to fill a need at a far cheaper price. Hill's a great player, but if you have a strong outside runner to match up with him or a disciplined game plan he's not doing a whole heap of damage. He just so happens to be off the charts at one of our biggest weaknesses but that doesn't mean he's going to be worth the asking price.

I'm not interested at the price. He's 26, is he really going to be the type of player to play consistently well after 30? Elite outside runner, best in the business. Above average but not amazing skills. Below average at the contest. 68% disposal efficiency, 5.2 contested possessions a game, 2.3 tackles. If you draft Xavier Duursma you've got 3/4's of the player already in year 1 and you've got him for 3 or 4 years at a far cheaper contract and for 10+ years if you develop him properly. Karl Amon probably gets you 80% or more of the output for the next 4 years at half the price and half the trade cost. Tom Cutler at the Lions is available for a big body and booming kick. There's got to be other options rather than paying absolute top price for a player that won't give a long term return. Either we bounce back to a good side next year or we don't with or without Hill. And yeah if we do then he might get us closer to a flag next year but if we don't make a strong bounce back then we'll be left thinking wtf did we do that for.