Adam The God

"He helps creates high-performance environments driven by strong leadership through empowerment. The absolute key is that coaches don't take the reigns back once things go wrong - it's a player-driven process. That's where real development occurs and onfield leadership emerges.." That's exactly what Roos has been saying for most of the year and explains why the coaches rarely make changes during the game. It should be up to the players to make the adjustments needed.

Even against poor opposition, at least that would show us some glimmer. Because as I say, I've seen nothing.

Wow, ANB is overrated. He's never shown any ability to win contested ball at AFL level and yet people seem to think it'll click for him. I know he's young, but I can't see him coming along far enough to be a valuable contributor to our midfield long-term. And he's not quick enough or damaging enough to play forward. If he does have trade currency, let's bank it and move on.

I agree. It's just that he's a better kick than Harmes or Michie and would probably collect just as many possessions, if not more than Michie.

If we win 5 in 7 years, we'll go ahead of Essendon and Carlton for most flags in VFL/AFL history...

I've been calling for Harmes to get the chop too, I just wouldn't have switched him for Michie. A 90% Salem offers more IMO, but this might be a game we can get away with playing Michie and ANB.

Not going to happen though. BT's bias is laughable. He really is thick as two planks (yes, I know he's also a part of the media trying to pump up Round 23).

I reckon Duryea is a weak link too. Hodge is just about finished too - the rich man's Nick Maxwell. And I love it. Oh and Breust is a soft footballer. Looks flashy when they're skiing downhill with perfect delivery to him, but it'll be interesting to see how he goes in a Hawthorn team that lacks dominance.

Ling inadvertently made a good point a moment ago. Hawthorn's loss tonight will give Sydney a massive eye on top spot. That can only be good for us.

He's a [censored]. A balding [censored].

That cliff is coming. Cannot wait to see them drop off it.

Hope you're right, mate.

It's pretty much the same mob that beat us last year. Yes, I know we've improved dramatically, but it's all about mindset this week. We should win and win comfortably. Let's see what our boys bring. I reckon Carlton will be fierce early. If we can smash them in the first term, we could be looking at a 7-10 goal win.

Just like the group-think on Grimes, Dawes and Garland?

Not a fan of the changes, but I suspect we feel we can get away with it this week. I've been pretty supportive of the changes for most of the year. I think they've been pretty spot on, but Michie has no future at this stage (doesn't have a weapon - isn't an accumulator; isn't damaging enough with his disposals; isn't fast; isn't great above his head) and ANB has consistently shown this year that he's not good enough for AFL level (another who lacks weapons). As much as I've complained about Harmes' poor disposal, at least he is tough at the contest, quick and gets the footy. Michie (his presumable replacement) is none of those. Pedo unlucky, but I'm more excited to see Hogan and Weideman play together for the first time.

Well, I thought it was a pretty good "point", whether or not you made it.

Cheese. Let's make our own history. That was all for nought anyway.

But equally, Geelong's path was similar to St Kilda's in that they stagnated for a while and there were calls for Thompson's sacking. They stuck with him and it clicked. The rest is history. The more I think about it though, the more it's obvious the Hawks are the anomaly in terms of development and rise. Had they not pinched the 2008 flag, I imagine their trajectory would have been quite similar to Geelong and St Kilda's. I believe it goes back to what I was saying above. The Hawks pinching that flag early was the best thing for their development. It might sound obvious, but that finals success held them in very good stead when 2013 came around, particularly having the burn of missing out in 2012 when they were probably more deserving. But I think I get the point you're trying to make. Flags aren't easy to come by. You can show all the upward trajectory for a few seasons you like, but it's getting it done on that first day in October that's the killer.

Hogan needs to work on areas of his game, but he needs to do that at AFL level and as a few have pointed out, he still takes the best 1 or 2 defenders to stop him.

Absolutely. I still believe they pinched that flag against Geelong in '08 (with the use of the rushed behind if you remember rightly). This was probably backed by the fact they failed to make the 8 the next year. But I guess my point is, you can pinch a flag early and it really does set your list up. They have no fear of finals and the big day, unlike so many other teams/clubs. I'd argue though, our list is more talented at this stage than theirs was in 2006-2007, remembering they added Rioli from the '07 draft and had added Roughead, Franklin and Lewis all from the 2004 draft (whereas most of our guys have come through together). They didn't even pick up Burgoyne until the 09' trade period, along with Gibson. If you compare this with our young crop. By the end of 2017 (injury permitting): * Tyson and Viney will have played around 90 games. * Jesse and Frost will have played 60 games and Kent will have played 70 games. * Tommy Mac will have played 120 odd games. * Brayshaw, Salem and Stretch will have played between 40-50 games (think about the improvement shown by Tyson and Viney in terms of consistency once they reached 40-odd games). * O Mac, Petracca, Oliver and Hunt will be approaching 40 games as well. * these guys will be rounded off by the more experienced players such as Watts approaching 160 games, Jones approaching 250 games, Vince approaching 210 games, Jetta approaching 110 games and Garlett approaching 170 games. I guess what I'm saying is that by the end of 2017, our age demographic in comparison with Hawthorn's from 2008 is pretty similar. The difference being I think is that we've got our KPP stocks sorted. We don't need to go out and target a Gibson, but like Burgoyne, if we could land a player of his ilk and another inside mid in the 2017 off season, we'll be a big shot for the flag in 2018. Now, given where we've come from, to be that well off after being a basketcase 4 years earlier is incredible. What is even more exciting is that we're now seen as a very viable option by potential outside suitors and if we continue on our upward trajectory, this factor will only work even more in our favour.

I'd be trading the other two though and saying to Rance, Riewoldt and Martin 'we'll be playing finals again in three years'. Whether they will or not is another story. I can. His fate is irrevocably tied to the success of his current crop. After all, he's been the man building this list for years now.

If you look at our winning trajectory, it's actually a lot more similar to Hawthorn's in the mid to late 2000s. Whereas the Bulldogs, you could argue, went backwards for a year before going forwards again. Hawthorn just kept improving. So have we: from 4 wins to 7 wins to 10-12 wins. If we make finals next year we're tracking in closer comparison to Hawthorn's 4 wins to 5 wins to 9 wins to 13 wins to 17 wins (their premiership year). I think the key difference between the Bulldogs to Melbourne and Hawthorn, is their injury list. You need a lot of luck to go your way to win a flag and at this stage, it looks like costing the Bulldogs a flag this year. If we can keep our players fit and continue to add quality to the list over the next 2-3 years, we're a serious shot at a flag. It'll come quicker than you think. So I'd say we're more the Hawks of 2006 or 2007.

I agree. But I would have agreed with you on that score had you said they should move Hardwick on 3 years ago.

This is what they should do, but they won't if Hardwick remains coach. He is too close to those players to trade them.

And Richmond might just do it again with Prestia.