MadAsHell

it does raise some difficult selection questions for the 3rd test. Apart from poor old Matthew Wade making a duck and kissing his chances goodbye at least for this series. The main spot up for grabs for the 3rd test for me was the number 4 spot, with Rogers and Watson to open, Khawaja at 3, Clarke at 5, Warner in at 6 and Haddin at 7 meaning one of Smith, Hughes or Wade was to bat at 4. With both Hughes and Smith making runs though they could possibly drop Rogers, open Hughes with Watson and bat Smith at 4? Watson will be safe due to his bolwing, for the rest of this series at least IMO. Meanwhile in the Australia A game at Lunch on Day 4 Australia A 1st Innings 5/474dec D. Warner 193 G. Maxwell 155* K. Abbott 2/83 (25) M. De Lange 2/129 (23) South Africa A 1st Innings 7/614dec D. Elgar 268 T. Tsolekile 159 F. Ahmed 3/177 (42) J. Hazlewood 1/68 (27) Australia A 2nd Innings 1/90 A. Finch 51* A. Doolan 20* S. Harmer 1/32 (9) K. Abbott 0/10 (6) Obviously a very flat wicket over there with 4 batsmen making over 150. A good effort from Fawad Ahmed taking 3 wickets and bowling an amazing 42 overs in obviously tough conditions for the bowlers. Hopefully Australia A can bat out the day to secure the draw. Some 2nd innings runs for both Doolan and Warner would be nice. Also worth noting Shaun Marsh who's on this tour (don't know why) made two poor scores on a complete road. How this guy is on our A tour ahead of guys like Silk, Burns, Bailey, Cosgrove, Henry, Handscomb and Lynn is a complete joke!

You make a good point there Rhino about Cowan being picked to captain the side. I would of thought they would have made Smith acting captain given he's captained NSW and Sydney Sixes at different times and if anything you'd expect he'd be more of a chance to play the 3rd test in the No 4 position then Cowan is. As for the match in Hove, can be followed here: http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013/engine/match/566930.html Good start for Hughes up the top of the order. Would it kill them to try and go at 3 an over though?

Not a bad future line up there Macca. Fingers crossed the players can develop well, and I think part of the reason for our current state is because some of the players we expected to develop through the Shield eg. Callum Ferguson, Cameron White, Chris Lynn just haven't developed like we probably expected them to, where as someone like Mark Cosgrove although often maiing runs has fitness issues which have held him back. I wonder if he'll get an opportunity? Update of the Australia A v South Africa A match: Stumps Day 2 Australia A 5/474 dec D. Warner 193 G. Maxwell 155* A. Finch 51 K. Abbott 2/83 (25) M. De Lange 2/129 (23) S. Van Zyl 1/45 (9) South Africa A 4/276 D. Elgar 135* J. Ontong 60 R. Hendricks 47 F. Ahmed 2/81 (18) M. Henriques 1/34 (10) J. Hazlewood 1/42 (17) Looks to be a very good batting wicket but you'd have to say we're slightly in front if anything. Won't expect a result obviously, but if we can bowl them out for under our score and then make some good second innings runs then it's a good performance. Great to see Fawad grab a couple of wickets again. Going at about 4.5 an over, but considering we batted at a rate of 4.42 an over and South Africa A are going at just under 4 then it's pretty reasonable in the scheme of things. Pat Cummins not playing by the way, I'm assuming rested. If Fawad grabs 4 or 5 could we see another last minute inclusion for the 3rd test?

Good article Macca, and I am optimistic that the tide will turn. Will just take time. As has been said by many on here I think we're good for bowlers and we're even developing a few spinners also (Agar, Zampa, Muirhead). We just have to wait for the batsmen to come through to. With any luck the likes of Silk, Burns, Maddinson etc will establish themselves over the next few years.

Nice obscure one there Jazza. Didn't play enough to make a sound judgement on just how good he was. Kind of like Brad Hodge who has a test batting average in the 50's or Stuart Law who made a 50 on debut but has no test average. Just don't know how good they really would have been at that level?

This one's for you Macca 5th XI Clem Hill http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5662.html Bill Woodfull* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8246.html Justin Langer http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6256.html Norm O'Neill http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7015.html Dean Jones http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6044.html Warwick Armstrong http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/3982.html Monty Noble http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6936.html +Bert Oldfield http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7003.html Charlie Turner http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7990.html Bill Johnston http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6041.html Jack Saunders http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7564.html Got them in an XI for you Macca, outside Langer & Jones this XI's a bit more old school. In fact on paper, this XI may actually be superior to who I had listed in my 4th XI.....

Not a bad idea Dee-luded. As Macca said, could be on the cards for the summer I reckon...

Cheers Macca, would have loved to see him live. Looks like he's exactly what I was hoping Tait would become before I and many othes were so let down.... As for the Australia A match. Stumps on Day 1 Australia A 5/399 D. Warner 193 G. Maxwell 103* A. Finch 51 K. Abbott 2/61 (19) M. De Lange 2/97 (16.4) S. Van Zyl 1/45 (9) Article on the days play here: http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/current/story/654857.html Great work by Warner, and you'd assume he's landed himself the number 6 spot for the 3rd test now with Wade, Hughes & Smith to battle it out for the number 4 spot. Also good to see Maxwell in the runs again after he made a 50 against Zimbabwe the other week. He to is clearly one of our best talents. I just hope he isn't limited to T20 & ODI cricket and he can learn how to harness his natural aggresive play to the longer format as he could become a valuable player going forward. Edit: Spell

Amendment: Macartney in, Jones out. Thanks for bringing him to my attention Macca! 4th XI: Lindsay Hassett http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5607.html Mark Taylor* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7924.html David Boon http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4169.html Mark Waugh http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8189.html Michael Hussey http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5939.html Charlie Macartney http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6434.html +Wally Grout http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5449.html Graham McKenzie http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6576.html Jeff Thomson http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7946.html Stuart MacGill http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6441.html Terry Alderman http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/3943.html

Fair call there Macca. I guess I picked Merv and Billy ahead of McKenzie due to their slightly superior strike rate and bowling average. So why then are they ahead of Thommo who had a better strike rate and average I hear you ask? Can't really answer that. I guess when I first started watching cricket I grew up watching Big Merv and Billy as our two main quicks so I've got a soft spot for the two of them. Both Noble and Armstrong are very good cricketers who you could argue should be in a team as early as the 2nd XI. For me by my final XI I went for Alderman ahead of Noble mainly due to the highlights I've seen of him and what my old man told me of him, so I have a very high opinion. Where as Armstrong you could almost say I left out due to team balance, with my weak 4th XI tale I wanted a specialist batsman instead of an allrounder. Macartney however I had forgotten about, and come to think of it I probably would have him in my 4th XI ahead of Deano. And for those of you interested Australia A currently 3/156 against South Africa A with Warner on 72* off 82 deliveries. Aaron Finch also made a 50 and Henriques is currently at the crease with Warner.

Australia A v South Africa A kicks off in about an hour. Can follow it here: http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/630760.html Likely XI for us I'd expect to be: N. Maddinson S. Marsh A. Doolan D. Warner M. Henriques G. Maxwell +T. Paine* P. Cummins C. Sayers F. Ahmed J. Hazlewood 12th - 15th Men: N. Coulter-Nile, A. Finch, M. Marsh & G. Sandhu This should give us a bit of an idea about where our depth is against that of South Africa's. Players to watch out for from their XI for me are. K. Abbott http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/297583.html R. Rossouw http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/318845.html S. Van Zyl http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/player/267479.html Will again be interesting to see how the likes of Warner, Cummins & Ahmed go. Further I'd love to know why neither Joe Burns or Jordan Silk are part of the squad. Surely these are two guys pressing for selection come our summer series?

While I don't expect this thread to get overly large, I though this would be a good and sad at the same time note to kick it off on. http://www.foxsports.com.au/other-sports/champion-netballer-sharelle-mcmahon-retires-to-spend-more-time-with-family/story-e6frf56c-1226684368942 Farewell Sharelle, one of the all time greats of the game one of our best sporting talents we've ever had, across all sports. Would of loved to see her push on to the Commonwealth Games next year and go out there but at least she's picked her own time. I always enjoyed watching her play, and not just due to her sporting ability Good luck in your future endeavours and hope the Vixens go on to win a premiership for you next year with the Diamonds bringing home the gold!

Agree Jazza, for the remainder of this series they need stability and I'm hoping that the XI they pick for the 3rd test they stick with for the 4th & 5th baring the likely rest of Harris for the 4th. Rogers to stay top of the order for the last 3 tests. Watson given these last three tests as openner, pretty much playing for his future. Khawaja to stay at 3 Hughs to stay at 4, see comments re: Watson Clarke to stay at 5. No 6 spot a three way play off between Smith, Wade & Warner for mine. The warm up matches will determine, but once picked for the 3rd test, stay for last three. Haddin to keep the gloves. Agar to play the whole series pending fitness for the next test. Siddle to play the whole series. Harris, in an ideal world to play the rest of the sereis. Likely to miss the 4th test for Starc. Bird to play the remaining 3 tests. I'd be telling the likes of Bailey, Faulkner & Cosgrove to make sure they're in fine form for the start of our summer, as if things don't change over these remaining tests I can see some changes coming and although I agree that both Mike Hussey & Punters times have come and gone, I wouldn't be against a Katch come back until the end of January 2015....

Haha, cheers Macca, was fun putting it together. And don't worry I didn't forget about those names you mentioned, I just couldn't fit them all into what I'd consider our best XI of all time. Punter, S. Waugh & Grimmett I'd have in our 2nd XI. Benaud captain of our 3rd XI. Thommo, as you say although astonishingly fast I could only get into our 4th XI. 2nd XI: Matthew Hayden http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5616.html Bob Simpson http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7619.html Stan McCabe http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6540.html Ricky Ponting http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7133.html Steve Waugh* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8192.html Doug Walters http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8151.html +Ian Healy http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5628.html Alan Davidson http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4902.html Hugh Trumble http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7977.html Clarrie Grimmett http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5443.html Fred 'The Demon' Spofforth http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7663.html 3rd XI: Bill Lawry http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6270.html Bill Ponsford http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7131.html Ian Chappell http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4560.html Neil Harvey http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5603.html Sid Barnes http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4098.html Michael Clarke http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4578.html +Rod Marsh http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6502.html Richie Benaud* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4123.html 'Rampaging' Ray Lindwall http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6299.html Merv Hughes http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5726.html Craig McDermott http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6551.html 4th XI: Lindsay Hassett http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5607.html Mark Taylor* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7924.html David Boon http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4169.html Mark Waugh http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8189.html Michael Hussey http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5939.html Dean Jones http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6044.html +Wally Grout http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5449.html Graham McKenzie http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6576.html Jeff Thomson http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7946.html Stuart MacGill http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6441.html Terry Alderman http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/3943.html Very difficult trying to fit them all in, and probably some very good players I've still forgotten. Pretty happy with all the XI's I've mentioned. Although my 4th XI has a pretty weak tail from Grout down, where as my 3rd XI has Lindwall coming in at 9 who scored 2 test centuries. Was difficuly enough thinking of an Australian XI, I'd hate to try and do a World XI.

Easy solution. Drop the whole XI, IN: Border, Bradman, G. Chappell, Gilchrist, Lillee, McGrath, K. Miller, Morris, O'Reilly, Trumper, Warne Arthur Morris http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6644.html Victor Trumper http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7980.html Don Bradman http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4188.html Greg Chappell http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4558.html Allan Border* http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/4174.html Keith Miller http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6612.html +Adam Gilchrist http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/5390.html Shane Warne http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/8166.html Dennis Lillee http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6295.html Bill O'Reilly http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/7020.html Glenn McGrath http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6565.html Discover the fountain of youth, conjure up a bit of black magic through the black arts and raise the dead. A couple of simple inclusions later and we'll win the next 3 tests ina canter. I'd love to see Jimmy Anderson's reverse swing undo this batting line up or Jo Root try and play a scoop shot off these bowlers. If only it were a possability.....

Border's spot on and it's all our batsmen that must shoulder the blame. Our bolwing has been reasonable given the little amount of rest time our batters have given them and the fact they've been bowling to the likes of Cook, Trott, Pietersen, Bell and Prior all of whom are top batsmen and Root looks like he's getting ready to establish himself also. I hear what you're saying Macca about others should go before Watson, but the reason why Watson shoulders (and rightly so in my book) so much more blame is because he's had 43 test caps now and has only scored 2 centuries. Rogers is only 3 tests into his career and has received two very stiff LBW decisions and has already scored more 50's this year then Watson, Khawaja's never had a good run, Cowan's papers have now been stamped and rightly so and Warner who's played less then half the test matches Watson has already has more centuries. Hughes however I agree should be under just as much pressure as Watson. It's also worth remembering that Watson himself has stated that he doesn't like batting down the order and wants to open, his stats also back up that he scores more runs at the top. Faulkner I agree probably isn't ready as far as batting is concerned (average 29 in FC cricket) however with Watson not scoring many runs as is, one could argue that by playing Faulkner we're then not loosing anything in the batting as long as Faulkner bats to his average and then on the flip side we gain a better bowler who can bowl more overs then Watson. Faulkner's also only 23 so has improvement left in him and has a betetr bowling record then Henriques & Marsh and a better batting reord then Marsh and only slighhtly inferior to Henriques It would also mean that an experiment of Hughes in the middle order could be finished and he could move back to open where he made all his runs in the Shield last summer. But then again as I mentioned in an earlier post of mine, if we go on to loose 5-0 which is a real possability, I'd be looking at telling all of Watson, Warner and Hughes that they're now specialist ODI & T20 players and look to bring Katich back and look at the likes of Cosgrove and Bailey. We certainly need a restructure of our domestic scene. As I've said, I can see why CA want the BBL during the school holidays, but it may be more practicle if they moved it to February or had it in October as soon as the footy season finished. Edit: Spelling

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/cricket/pattinson-ruled-out-of-ashes/story-fni2fnmo-1226683490032 He can't take a trick can poor old Patto. Out till our summer! Wonder if they'll bring Pat Cummins into the squad? Personally I hope they resist that and let him have his Australia A tour, they still have Jackson Bird, Mitchell Starc and James Faulkner in the squad anyway. My only change to the XI for the 3rd test at this stage would be Bird in for Pattinson, however that would also depend on the fitness of Agar (possible inclusion of Lyon) and form of Warner in his next tour match. If we go down 3-0 that's when they should look at options such as Wade as a specialist batsman and Faulkner in for Watson with Watto test career coming to an end.

TD's steps to repairing Australian cricket. First of all let me say that there's certainly no quick fixes. We can shuffle a few deck chairs around here and there which may help somewhat, but we don't have any magic wand that will fix this quick. We've now lost 6 test matches in a row with 8 more to come against England and then the next 3 after that against South Africa in South Africa before a series against Pakistan in a neutral country, not sure if it will be England or UAE? So repair work both on field and off field will need to be done and here's how I'd attack each starting as of the end of this English leg of the Ashes. ON FIELD: 1. Remove Watson, Warner and Hughes from the Test team and tell them to concerntrate on helping us climb back up the ladder in the shorter formats of the game. These guys would form a reasonably impressive ODI & T20 top 3 so tell them that this is something we want them to ownership of that, at least this way they may still feel somewhat valued. 2. Bring Simon Katich out of retirement, even if it's only until the end of our 2014/15 summer, This guys a proven performer and leader and still has the desire to play. Bat him at 3 or as an openner depending on how Roges form goes for the remainder of this series. 3. Convince Clarke to hand over the captaincy to Simon Katich. He's our best player by a mile and our struggles will be taking it's toll on him. He's to valuable to have this on his mind. We'd be better with Clarke just concerntrating on his batting at either 4 or 5. Katich to become captain and bring George Bailey in as vice captain and we're set. 4. Target a group of players and stick by them. Guys like Usman Khawaja, James Faulkner, Aston Agar should be picked and played and given a proper opportunity. Identify the players with the right temperment, technique and character and give them a run. Try and stop the constant chopping and changing. An XI I'd love to see us go through the home Ashes series with and South African tour with is: Simon Katich* (New captain and proven performer. can bring back some old school agression to the team.) Usman Khawaja (Should be played and given a proper run. Made a very good 50 last night and has the right technique to be a good opener IMO.) Mark Cosgrove (Has been churning the runs out at Shield level for year now. 22 100's, averages 43 in FC cricket and still only 29. Could be another Mike Hussey.) George Bailey (Although only average 38 in FC cricket, is a proven leader and has shown in ODI that he lifts at the higher level.) Michael Clarke (Removed of captains burden and allowed to enjoy his cricket and just concerntrate on becoming the best batsman he can be.) James Faulkner (Allrounder replacement for Watson. Averages 23 with ball, needs to lift his 29 bat average but has a heap of potential and will be a player.) +Brad Haddin (Similar position to Katich. Is valuable given his leadership, will be repalced long term by Paine or Wade.) Ashton Agar (Struggled in his 2nd test but played with injury. Hope they give the kid time, but Fawad will keep the pressure on.) Peter Siddle (Heart and soul player and extremely valuable. Part of our strength in fast bowling.) James Pattinson (Heaps of upside. Will be joined by Pat Cummins soon enough.) Ryan Harris (Injury plagued fast bowler who they should continue to play until his body gives out.) The likes of Pat Cummins, Jackson Bird, Mitchell Starc, Fawad Ahmed, Tim Paine, Alex Doolan & Andrew McDonald would be the next best cabs off the rank in case of injuries or tour duties IMO. OFF FIELD: 1. Currently CA reduced the salary cap for states and made payment for the BBL seperate and players now get paid more for BBL then they do Shield. This must be rectified. The states need 100% of the cap with at least 50% to go towards Shield. 25% max to T20. We need to encourage Test cricketers, not T20 cricketers. 2. Expand the Shield to 9 teams by bringing in the ACT (Manuka Oval), NT (TIO Stadium) and Northern Queensland (Cazaly Stadium). A couple of flat decks in Darwin & Cairns will be good for the basmen to play long innings and bowlers to learn to work hard to get their wickets. Allow all states to sign 2 international players from England/West Indies so there isn't to big a drain on the talent pool, but at the same time this does expose more players to first class cricket which is a good thing. 3. Make the ground staff prepare test match pitches for the Shield matches and not result pitches. If the groundsmen deliberatly go against this, punish them with the less desirable international fixtures avaialble. 4. Block our three formats of the game so players aren't constantly going from one form to another. Have a 4 week block of Domestic One Day games from start of October to early November. 5 Shield matches from early November to mid/late December. BBL from Boxing Day to Australia Day 9I understand the need to have it on during school holidays. Remaining 4 Shield matches (9 teams) semi final and final of Shield from late January to mid March. At least this way there isn't as much chopping and changing. If we were to take this path, soon enough i reckon we could get back to somewhere near where we should be. Sadly at the moment though I reckon we'd struggle against West Indies or New Zealand....

Tea Day 4 England 1st Innings 361 I. Bell 109 R. Harris 5/72 (26) Australia 1st Innings 128 S. Watson 30 G. Swann 5/44 (21.3) England 2nd Innings 7/349dec J. Root 180 P. Siddle 3/65 (21) Australia 2nd Innings 6/136 (Target 583) U. Khawaja 54 J. Root 2/8 (4) Finally looked like we were about to have a good session when 3 wickets in the last 15 minutes before tea killed that! Game over and I'm going to bed. Fingers crossed Haddin & the tail can show some fight and we make at least 183 to get within 400. How sad when that's a goal! Look forward to discussing potential changes to the XI tomorrow.

Well done Usman Khawaja on your 2nd test 50. Knuckled down despite looking all at sea early against Swann and played sensible Test cricket. Now to make your first 100 and bat for another four and a bit sessions...

It would just be as simple as cricket Australia organising one of the states to sign him up overnight and he's eligable as far as I was aware as he's played for Australia within the last 5 years. Neither Ponting or Katicj are currently contracted to a state byt are a county team and there's been talk of them being drafted into the Aussie team. Jaques at least would still potentially have about 3 years in him.

Lunch Day 4 England 1st Innings 361 I. Bell 109 R. Harris 5/72 (26) Australia 1st Innings 128 S. Watson 30 G. Swann 5/44 (21.3) England 2nd Innings 7/349dec J. Root 180 P. Siddle 3/65 (21) Australia 2nd Innings 3/48 (Target 583) S. Watson 20 G. Swann 2/10 (7) Hughes and Watson are looking in the gun and this very well could be all over by tea. The only potential positive is that it gives the likes of Khawaja & Smith an opportunity to try and bat for long periods of time and lock a spot in the XI. Sadly though I don't know if we'll get within 400 runs. The question will then be do we keep chopping and changing the XI, or pick an XI and try and leave them together for as long as possible to try and click?

And this is someone they should consider replacing him with: http://www.espncricinfo.com/australia/content/player/6060.html Still only 34 so has a few years in him. Averaged 44 in County Cricket in 2012 and scored a century in his most recent county match that only finished the other day. It's also worth remembering that he scored a century in his last test and he's scored 3 in 11 test matches, one more then Watson in his 40+.. Another Brad Hodge who was pushed aside while we instead focused on hacks like Marcus North and Shaun Marsh.....

Stumps on Day 3 England 1st Innings 361 I. Bell 109 J. Bairstow 67 R. Harris 5/72 (26) S. Smith 3/18 (6) Australia 1st Innings 128 S. Watson 30 M. Clarke 28 G. Swann 5/44 (21.3) T. Bresnan 2/28 (7) England 2nd Innings 5/333 J. Root 178* I. Bell 74 P. Siddle 3/65 (21) J. Pattinson 1/42 (20) Disaster! That is all.

Kade Simpson's stats in his first three games for Carlton 0 kicks 0 handballs 0 marks. Toump had a shocker and he knows it. He was also very, very good the week before. I think some people on here need to stop jumping at their own shadows.