IvanBartul13

Finding the order and some of the players included in the 100 utterly bizarre but its a great read, effort and format!

On 12/29/2021 at 2:03 AM, WERRIDEE said:

Love these threads. Thought Rigoni was a bit too low he was a gun until he done his back. A better player than Trengove, Nicholson, Tyson and McLean. McLean far too high. Had a good finals series in 2006 and that's about it was stuffed after he did his ankle. Other than that great job. 

McLean was fourth in a rising star, third in a B+F, 10th and then 2nd in a B+F from 14 games.  For two or three seasons he was the heartbeat of the side, with James McDonald, and then he was traded for a first round draft pick.  Very good player at his best and then placed in a Carlton B+F as well.

1 minute ago, Brenno said:

Anyone have a link to how the scoring is calculated? 

 

four members of the coaching group/match committee can give players between 0-10 votes per game - max 40.

1 hour ago, WERRIDEE said:

Cameron's side under achieved. Losing Jolly and Thompson hurt.Out of the 22 only Bate and Wonaeamirri under achieved.

Prendergast was a disaster only 2 out of 30 picks are up to AFL level.

Taylor won us a premiership. 15 premiership players in there.

Not including trades. Cameron had Powell, Ingerson and Shanahan while Prendergast had Clark while Taylor had May, Lever, Langdon, Hibberd, Melksham, B.Brown and Vince.

 

Unusually off point here - Cameron drafted Chris Lamb, Cale Morton, Addam Maric, Jack Grimes who all underachieved.  The concept of using teams doesnt work because of tenure length differences.  Youve also not put forward the best 22s.  James Magner would be in Prendergasts as an example.

To say Prendergast only drafted two AFL calibre players is Spiritedly wide of the mark and unfair to at least a few of Howe, Jetta, Tom McDonald, Scully, Watts and Jurrah.  Of course he wasnt a good recruiter but he still made some very good picks and Gysberts was traded for Cam Pedersen and the origin points of Fritsch, May and Sparrow’s careers come from Prendergast’s recruiting.  He also had the worst coach in Melbourne’s history using his talent and interfering.

3 hours ago, Hopeful Demon said:

Yes Garland was an underrated player. He didn't have many superstar attributes but his commitment was excellent and he was actually fairly versatile. I remember in Neeld's first year he was a major influence on our upset win over Essendon with his two goals in the last quarter. Pity he played for us when we were at our lowest point.

The backend of his career he sought of lost momentum, but he was very unlucky to not win a best and fairest (more votes per game than Jonesy in one of his years but played one less game) and went toe to toe with Buddy Franklin in his prime and held his own.

1 hour ago, Whispering_Jack said:

The thing that's up in the air is whether there's a bid for Taj Woewodin, in the absence of which he could potentially be rookied.

I suppose we wait and see.

I think if no bid comes we will draft him with our last pick anyway, similar to Toby Bedford situation

4 minutes ago, 58er said:

In your long and very thoughtful post there are some points you seem to miss when assessing Jacob . ( And Mac Andrew no doubt)!

Here are my 5cents worth.

1. The fact that he has played and succeeded at his own level in 2 comps in DEFENCE and KICKED MULTIPLE GOALS when up forward gives him double the chance of succeeding in our very good team.

2. When looking at highlights forget about the opposition and look at the player and his skills he uses in ONE on ONE contests.  JVR appears very good user of his body has good marking judgement and good skills When he has the ball in hand and a feel for the game as well.

3. JVR like all new players will no doubt be given a very thorough professional examination as to his physical status ( which often is revealed at  Combine stage ) so JT would be all over this. Extra kilos are a given for him to succeed at KP level ( look at Dogga and his extra 6/8 kg and no loss of pace etc.) 

4. Change of Environment will kick in ( yes some get homesickness ) but our Culture at the Club and the huge reaction ( see in this JVR Welcome post) from family and friends will be a solid Base plus our selflessness and the Choco Yze and Goody factors that Kossie Riv Dogga Harrison P Bowser have all blossomed enhances his prospects with the competitiveness seed in most players these days of being a good pick up.

5. I saw Pettys highlights from Day 1 and he used his body and marked the ball and knew some defensive reactions to earmark him as good potential.It has not been plain sailing for Harry but he has a good grasp of his craft and his development is well on irs way. There is no reason why JVR  can't do the same and it's up to him and our coaches to provide the best opportunity we can to train him ready to take over from say Maysie  or Tmac or BBB whenever that opportunity arises. Harry Petty SamW and Dogga will make him earn his colours and he will be all the better fir it.

6. He might still have a little bit of growth ( height ) in himself we never know just let's hope so. 

Yes he will have opponents taller quicker and maybe more skilled at times or on the odd occasion but that's what sport is about the ability to compete and that's  what JT said was his big trait and impressed the Dees about Jacob as a Demon style KP player who is strong in the clinches and fights every last inch for advantage. 

We can at least trust our FD recruiting team to have got it right since about 2015 and this showed up esp at the centre bounce in that glorious 17 mins which we mortgaged the Cup. We were too strong at  the bounce and ball ups in close as a team. 

Welcome Jacob. 
 

Good post, but I'm not really sure how your dot points really conflict with my post.  I'm just suggesting that expectations of him as a forward be tempered because of the level of competition he was up against at WAFL colts level, which were basically and mostly smaller non-AFL prospects, and because as a 194cm specimen multiple clubs who would definitely love to have a forward with those dimensions bypassed him.  That's not to say he won't develop into a fine player at all.

1 minute ago, dee-tox said:

Your obsession is bizarre. You seemingly make every post about Andrew. I wonder if you'd be as obsessed trashing an 18 year friend of your grandson as opposed to an 18 year old kid from Sudan?

To be fair he hasnt trashed the player in my view, but rather the concept of drafting him with a high pick - and with some sensible reasoning.   I don't necessarily agree but have never felt his comments had anything do with him being from Sudan either,  other than that fact linked him to our academy.  He's been very unflattering about Mac's arm girth, all the same.

16 minutes ago, Whispering_Jack said:

 

Perhaps Richard Lounder but that was a long time ago.

Incredible football oddity, Richard Lounder, but he was actually a mature age behemoth when drafted and with the turning circle of a polar ice cap.  

The skinniest ruckmen/KPPs to pass my eye and be drafted were Andrew Erickson to Sydney and Tony Bourke Carlton.  They were absolute rakes and I think Bourke played a couple of games but Erickson didn't.  I think both struggled to add meat to their frames which killed their careers.   Neither had Andrew's spring or ballskills, so they arent good guides i dont think.  He is pretty much a completely unique footballer that is impossible to project.

1 hour ago, Whispering_Jack said:

I think you’re being tough with our boy JVR, noting that he was diagnosed with glandular fever in May and that illness can knock you about even if you’re a fit young person. That makes his efforts both in the WAFL Colts and for the WA Under 19s even more admirable. I did watch him in those state games and he was impressive in both in defence and attack. Moreover, my understanding is that he was sent down back after already proving himself as a forward at Colts level and in earlier state games to test his capability in defence. He not only did that but also from memory was sent forward late in the game and kicked the winning goal. He’s gone a long way to proving his versatility and he’s lucky to be at Melbourne where there’s absolutely no pressure on him to hold a place in the senior straight away.

Not sure in what way I've been tough.  I've said I thought he would be drafted higher and surprised that Brisbane - and Sydney, in particular once Tom Brown was taken ahead by Richmond- didn't take him ahead of us to be honest.  I've compared him as a defender to a good player in Harry Petty, but i think as forward, whilst he's performed very well at Colts level and other junior levels, there isn't a big positive sample size of him beating the ilk or physique of player he is going to come across at AFL level and without seeming to be outrageously skilled or uber athletic that puts a question mark on whether he can be a dominant AFL figurehead forward, remembering that when most Demonlanders were waxing lyrical about Jack Watts dominating an under 18 game, he was playing on Brad Sheppard with a 10cm and 12kg physical advantage.  Watts I think was a good player, but these concepts are behind the reason I think he is at Pick 19 in a draft incredibly bereft of his type of player and not in the top half dozen picks.  

I think its a  good list management pick from a positional list build viewpoint and you are 100% he comes into a great situation for himself at the Dees (most, it has to be said, will, given we have a very balanced list) and I think he could be a good player, maybe a Nick Larkey type, but unlike someone like the patronising and condescending Spirit Of Norm Smith, I'm not going to guess and shamelessly make constantly wrong and grandiose statements or inflated comparisons and bombard the site with drivel. Rather am just providing what I pray to be a balanced, honest assessment.  I hope he is the second coming of Neita, but at this stage Im only happy to concede that he is at least going to be a handy structural spine player.

Its a great pick by you to identify him as the man we were going to take and I think its going to be interesting for you to compare him and Andrew going forward, because their careers are going to be kind of the lab study of your thesis about Andrew and youve got a very good chance to be proven right. but I need to see him beating good players to be confident.  Josh Schache was routinely murdered by Jacob Weitering in his draft year and Van Rooyen hasn't played on someone like that.  I need to see either optics of dominance or class, or to see him beating quality players first to be confident.

AFL comparison: Harry Petty or could be a Nick Larkey, whichever way you swing. 

Unfortunately much of Van Rooyen's best forward work at WAFL colts level is not on freely available game tape, but he was dominant in multiple matches against mostly mediocre opponents.   Most of his high-profile and watchable footage  was played in key defence where, stylistically and in terms of trait, he is very reminiscent of Harry Petty - steady overhead, big wingspan and an effort player.  It sounds like the club view him more as a key forward, where he projects to be more of a solid structural piece than a star, which is the question on him and why he is down at pick 19 - does he have the class and or athletic specialness to be a dominant AFL level key forward?  I was surprised given the dearth of key position options that he was available at this pick.  Think it's a sound list management pick but not necessarily a sexy decision.   If he fails or is ineffective as forward, should at worst make it as a second or third key back.

4 hours ago, dazzledavey36 said:

The club have ramped up several meetings with Murray Bushranger prospect Tom Brown in the past fortnight. This has also included his family being part of the process as welll.

In the past week our senior Bushies coach and footy manager have been asked once again for a reference background check on his character and off field behavior's.

The feeling we have is that Tom is under serious consideration for our pick now, as they have pretty big wraps on him.

My personal opinion is that we have Darcy Wilmot as our number 1 target, followed by Brown if Wilmot does not last to our pick.

Dazzle is ther any word re: interest in Brown from Sydney, who widely mocked to take him and there are rumours of them meeting with his management quite fervently.

2 hours ago, Demon Disciple said:

Pretendergast

Nah gawn, jetta, Howe and t mcdonald doesnt quite have him in the deadsite imbecile category, the category of someone who never gets things right :)

Just now, Demons11 said:

I’m heating we are trying our hardest to find a way to get GWS’s 2nd pick to try and get Wilmott

If thats the case, one complication with executing that plan is that a package of our first two picks wouldnt be if much value to the Giants as the second pick would be swallowed matching a bid for Josh Fahey, they just dont get any benefit unless they can quickly trade it for something futuristic.  Otherwise there is just nothing in it for the Giants to the naked eye.

13 minutes ago, The Great Pretender said:

Doerre has gone on record as saying that he doesn’t rate Chesser. 

He’s also indicating that Melbourne will only draft 2 players plus Taj Woewodin.

I wouldnt be concerned if I was Chesser, Doerre is the second worst judge of football talent who regularly comments on the subject!

12 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

Good point. I still think 17 and then turning 39 in to a future 2nd could work for them. Getting the young tall they need before the Fahey bid and banking a pick. 

A future first certainly has more upside though. 

They could also trade down get some future material and then trade back in after Fahey has gone, a more convoluted way of getting to your original plan.

9 minutes ago, DeeSpencer said:

GWS recruiting manager was fairly cagey, talked up the 4 players they liked and didn’t confirm or deny any bids.

My guess is they bid on Darcy, don’t bid on Daicos due to a deal with the Pies and end up taking Callaghan rather than rolling the dice on Mac or Gibcus.

I definitely think they’ll put 13 on the table for a future first if the top line talls are gone. Would they consider 13 for 17 and 39 to slide down and take someone in that second group of talls like JVR - maybe. 

 

GWS have a problem in that there is no real advantage for them trading down as any pick in the 30s for example would be inefficiently consumed matching a bid for Josh Fahey.  It would make more sense for them to trade down and get a future pick as the benefit, which rules us out.  St Kilda are another team that could benefit from a trade down, but they are hamstrung for the same reason.

1 hour ago, Whispering_Jack said:

As we enter the home stretch and move into the week of the 2021 National Draft, the scribes are looking more and more at the individual clubs and their needs.

Rookie Me Central has come out with its 2021 AFL Draft Preview: Melbourne

These are their key questions -

Will Melbourne again make moves in the first round via live trading?

How early will the Woewodin bid come in?

Will Melbourne pick for needs, or select best available talent for pure squad depth?

I think the Woewodin bid question isnt as important as they suggest because so many picks in the likely range are owned by Collingwood and the Dogs and will disappear, which means the impact to Melbourne is minimised from the bid itself and there is less opportunity for clubs to bid in any case. The chance of us being negatively effected by a bid is very minimal I think. 

14 hours ago, dieter said:

Since I read earlier this week that Our Own Simon Goodwin is of German descent on his mother's side, I decided to post a side of Demon Germans.

Not a bad aside, at that.

Terlich   Prymke      Rohde

Seecamp  Neitz   Wagner

C. Wagner  H.Mann  Strauss

Wittman    Schwartz  Fritsch

Weidemann Mueller Vanthoff

 

Ditterich, Obst, Pesch

Int: Preuss, Milner, Burgmann, Funcke.

 

Wittman, Mueller and Vanthoff are yesteryear men, all played for Victoria.

 

George Haines is probably the most conspicuous German Dee of all time and should be in the team!

On 11/10/2021 at 6:59 PM, manny100 said:

Looking forward Woey this year and Kalani White in 4 years? Not sure whether any others on the radar. I guess the club does not want any pressure on the young sons.

I know there were some murmurings at the club that Jimmy’s boy Tiernan was also worth tracking.

4 hours ago, Elwood 3184 said:

Didn’t we do a similar thing last year when we dropped James Jordon off the senior list and then rookied him. It sounded like a smart move to enable us to have an extra pick in the main draft but could it also have backfired?

No, because of the uncertainty of the  Covid situation back then, the AFL put in a rule that clubs could move players to the rookie list from the senior list.  That rule has since been removed.

48 minutes ago, The Riv said:

Shhh! We're still keeping Kobi George under wraps....

Hopefully, the kid never read it!  🙏 

3 hours ago, spirit of norm smith said:

Tyler Sonsie not in the top 21. (?) He’s a talented young midfielder. Saw him in VFL game for box hill Hawks v Werribee and he was a standout.   Thought he was top 8-12 quality in this draft.  

Have you recalibrated where youre expecting Cody Raak, Kobi George and Max Pescud to go?

Do you mean Scott Turner or Steve Turner?

9 hours ago, Turner said:

see this annoys me and this is what the afl needs to wipe out, carlton delists cottrell & o'brien promising to re-rookie them and then upgrades kennedy (1yr as a rookie) and honey (3yrs/4possible) get promoted to the senior list... why can't they just leave as is? the same 60k still gets paid outside the salary cap regardless of who the player is thats down there? is the only reason to shove a rocket up two players clackers by delisting and relisting so they realise how close to the edge they are? 

pleased for hughes and Willkie who earnt their go as rookies and toiled away for 3 years to make it to the senior list and jordon for working back to his spot. also for reeves and Frederick who are proper rookies who've earnt their digs as proper traditional rookies in the sense that they're a cross code beanpole ruckman convert and a cat b multicultural prospect respectively

It is with great trepidation that I reply to an acolyte from the Spirit of Norm Smith tree of influence after Mitch O’Neill won South Adelaide’s best first year player award this year,  but I will try and help you out.

Firstly, there are some incorrect facts in your post.  Josh Honey was a second year rookie this year and Cottrell was also a rookie (rendering obsolete your complaint about Carlton’s use of him.)

There are some list and TPP mechanics that are relevant but arent referred to in your diatribe.   One of the most important is that rookie promotions count towards the AFL’s mandated minimum three national draft picks per club.  So by switching players from the relative ‘lists’, it helps clubs satisfy that requirement.  In the current AFL world where list sizes are incredibly tight that has a value.  Carlton are positioned to have only one National draft pick, perhaps two, this year, so they’ve covered the AFL’s draft requirements with the rookie promotions. 

We can now move to TPP.  To recontract O’Brien they would have to pay the AFL senior list minimum at worst, now they can pay him the rookie list minimum, a saving of at least $30k in actual real dollars.  The movement of Kennedy is a counterweight to any TPP benefit most likely but its still a positive financial result for the club.  The actual rookie list TPP saving maximum is closer to 100k than the 60k from your post. 

So the O'Brien for Kennedy switch has at least a real world money saving benefit, plus it has extremely positive list size and national draft implications. 

In terms of Honey,  the National Draft pick factor is relevant, plus Carlton had a huge rookie list last yeat with high retention into this year, so promoting him helps with that, given that the AFL tightened the rookie list screws with its latest list size announcement this year.  Him moving to the primary opens the extra slot for one of the delisted players.

Im not sure but as a third year supplemental rookie draft player, Cottrell may have reached the ceiling to the amount of time he could stay as a rookie, they may have been forced to either delist or promote. If thats the the case, the former is a more sensible line of attack.

The moves are about satisfying AFL rules and dealing with list size issues.