Dappa Dan

Except that having won SBs DOESN'T matter. When you're winning them next DOES matter. That's what creates business for these big organisations. If you're saying that there's still room for romance... cling to a player who won't be there in your next playoff run... then you're going to get a tidal wave of opposition from within your own organisation and fan base. Speaking of which... Favre. Has there been a more beloved player anywhere? He went on to play more seasons and keep winning with the Vikes. Are you saying that Rodgers SHOULDN'T have been played? Is Rodgers BETTER than Favre now? Your idea of "win now" isn't altogether wrong. But neither is planning for the future. Come on Macca.... I didn't say they were identical situations. In fact I said they weren't the same, which you ignored. Take a closer look... A 35 year old beloved QB who won championships, still playing good ball, was moved on to great effect at my club. Loved the decision when it was made, and that was BEFORE it was shown to be a masterstroke. Same thing with Peyton. Noone in any camp minds. It was a win-win-win for the Colts who went on to playoffs the next year, Peyton who went to the Broncos for a SB, and for Elway who got support for his gun defense. That's what I'm saying. Moving on a SB winning QB, all round good guy and superstar CAN be "win now" and CAN BE a good decision FOR ALL PARTIES INVOLVED. If you're that blind and stubborn that you can't see the benefit for all parties in these gutsy decisions, then you're just not looking close enough. Don't misread my point. I may "hate" the Giants, but I think I've written enough on here for you to be able to see I'm not "biased." You can hate a club for being in your division, and as rivals. But if I was biased, I wouldn't have OBJ as my keeper year-in-year-out. You can do both simultaneously. I hated the Hawks, but by gee did I respect them. Still do really. So let's not go casting aspersions on each others' "bias" shall we? Look, I'm with you on the win now thing... Like I say I'm not saying it's without merit. But winning the next 5? To go 7-9 on the season and pick somewhere around the teens? In other words, effectively putting themselves in a position where to GET their next QB they'd have to trade future first rounders and current players? Look mate. You think what you want. I'm not trying to change your mind. All I'm saying is planning ahead works. It worked for your Packers with Favre/Rodgers... worked for the Eagles with Wentz. It's not nonsense. Nor is comparing the McNabb move to Eli. What IS a long bow to draw is comparing MFC's situation to anything in the NFL. Especially the Giants... who's "down" period has been going for exactly 11 games now. MFC's went 11 years and counting.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000885977/article/aaron-rodgers-returns-to-packers-practice-saturday And just like that... This really will put the cat amongst the pidgeons. Only have to beat the Bucs and the Browns and they'll be all over it...

HIS AGE is the problem. The list around him, particularly the O line is in such bad shape that by the time they get THAT organised, Eli will be 40 and in steep decline. Those numbers are stats. Same as all stats. If you use your eyeballs, you can see as you say Eli is much the same player he's always been. No sense to drop him this week. However, they're trying to beat father time by moving him on while he has value. Instead of watching him decline slowly. They look at Romo and while he was still playing arguably the best ball of his career at the end, age caught up with him and his body fell apart. LUCKILY they had Dak ready to go behind him. What's wrong with getting ahead of the Eli ticking timebomb? Yeah no argument with the scapegoat part. I reckon the entire organisation has an inflated sense of value. They really are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.What I'm really interested to see is... McAdoo is literally DAYS away from being let go. It could be as soon as next week, or the week after the Eagles game. When THAT happens... I wonder what the odds are that the caretaker will pick Eli... and the incoming coach will retain him for 2018... Fun to watch. Like really ugly reality TV.

I think that's what I'm saying. My club did the same thing. Worse in fact. They threw Donovan out at age 35(ish). I was pumped. I knew he only had a couple of good years left. He went on to do nothing. Eagles moved on to Kolb, and within a few games, Vick went close to winning an MVP in a classic year. I didn't for a minute think it was a mistake to trade the Eagles best QB in the post-merger era. Although MANY Eagles fans who loved him were really upset. All about selling high, buying low. Eli's situation is different obviously, but since you asked... And no. Ask any Colts fans, from top to bottom... they're certainly frustrated that Luck is hurt... but the kid has played some great football in his first few seasons, and is an out and out gun. Just has some horrible injuries. Everyone in that organisation is very, very pleased to have him. And 100% of them would rather have their current situation with Luck vs a retired hall of famer. I'm with you on Eli more than you think. I reckon he's a credit to the League. I think it's two separate topics though. One, dropping him at this time in this fashion.... and quite separately the idea of moving him on IN THE OFF SEASON. First one: I can't get my head around, and not many people can. Second one, I think is aggressive and makes a lot of sense, as discussed above. But yeah, you're not wrong... McAdoo apparently, according to what I'm hearing from all the credited beat reporters, had no say in dropping him. Wasn't his idea. But it won't matter. He and Reese are doneskies, surely. And hey... I can hardly say I mind... I hate the Giants.. They go bad = good for Eagles. Where I can't go with you is the "win now" thing. I mean. That's just not true on any level. Clubs come out and flat out admit to tanking, all over the league. They shift a solid player to the bench to sort out their future all the time when they can't make playoffs. In some instances they do it even before seasons start. They rebuild. Happens all the time. But again... this is all one view vs another, and is for all intents and purposes, sort of pointless to discuss. So wild change of topic... has noone on here mentioned about Rodgers apparently flying in training? Still a shot? I would prefer to meet literally 14 other teams in the NFC in playoffs rather than play Rodgers. Should I be worried? Some are saying 9-7 will be enough?

Yeah. But a 37 year old monument. Indy did the same with Peyton, and no-one there minds, as they got Luck. Peyton didn't even mind as he went to Broncos and got his second ring. It's one area in the NFL that they have maturity over us. Trav Cloke gets booted from the Pies, and you wouldn't believe the vitriol aimed at him over something that wasn't even his fault. Older QBs get moved to other clubs all the time, and coaches get moved on, and the GP so often remain supporters. Even at Philly they cheered McNabb when he started for the Redskins. Ditto for Andy Reid when KC came to town. I love how USA sports are about the acceptance of free agency and player movement. Although I will agree with you that dropping him with only 5 games to go... I mean... I still don't understand who or what it helps. Geno would need to throw 4 TDs a week with no picks to get the job next year... Genuine question... is the Geno stuff a smokescreen? Is it actually the fact that they want to look at Webb? Maybe they rate him? Regardless, McAdoo is gawn... So it's all pretty much a big "?" for me still.

- Nope. Gonna be fun though. lol - They haven't?!!! I dunno about that. I think in USA sports, tanking isn't even a dirty word. What do they say in Philly? "Trust the process." I have a feeling the organisation sees this as literally their next franchise QB coming from their first pick. If they DO win a couple more and go from pick 3 to pick 8, they'll trade up from 8 to 2... and assume, correctly, that the Browns will screw up pick 1. I reckon like when Peyton got hurt at Indy, let him walk and got Luck ("Suck for Luck" was the popular phrase then)... that's pretty much what the Giants are resigned to doing. Not saying they went about it well... but it's clear to everyone what they're angling for. Of course it is... but you still have to do it. Again and again if required. Or if you're the Browns, again and again X26... I would agree, except Flacco is 32. If Eli was 32, there wouldn't even be a question. He'd still be there. But he's turning 37 soon. And in NYC, you gotta get those fans in. If I'm a Giants fan I'm probably hoping Eli stays cos I love him... but half of me is ready for the new chapter. At very least I'm going through every little thing I can find on the top 3 guys online, with a fine tooth comb, to see if it's worth the trouble. I did the same when Howie traded up to pick 2 to get Wentz. In those few days before the draft, I was feverishly looking into Goff/Wentz stuff. I was pretty excited though. Bradford isn't a bad QB. But I wasn't EXCITED to watch him play. I feel like if Giants see their list the way you do, then they'd assume they're 2 maybe 3 years away... at which time Eli will be almost 40. If they're not in shooting distance in 2018... then the time is right. Get lucky dipping.

Obviously he's not playing. But the question of who's most valuable to Giants won't be in regards to the next 5 weeks. For obvious reason they're looking at 2018 and onwards... And if that's true, OBJ is by far and away the biggest piece of that puzzle, and will be the highest paid player at the club easily. It's not like they have 0 talent on their list. I really like the idea of a Rosen or Jackson coming in and having OBJ to throw to. Look at Wentz. In his first year he had nothing to target, give him Jefferey and suddenly he's exploded. If you watch OBJ closely, he makes the QB better. Giants actually looked dangerous in the few games he played this year. And yeah. It is garbage. But again... so was Eagles. I reckon in the NFL (as opposed to the AFL) you're only one or two off seasons away from a serious list, as long as you work the trades and free agency right. At the Eagles, Roseman got the reigns back of what was largely viewed to be a garbage list.... Yes, they got lucky in that more or less every move turned out to be a winner... But the point is the so-so core group look super once you put good pieces around them. I think Giants main 6 guys are good enough to have them back in the NFC East race within a couple of seasons. No doubt. That said, it allllllll hangs on the QB, and how much protection you can get him. Who do they take, and will they be a bust.

Eli the only string point? OBJ says hi. I reckon Giants have got some good pieces still. Most teams do. JPP, Jenkins, Shepherd is ok, Engram looks like a good player... Less than 12 months ago they were in the playoffs. I think you're right though. It seems the top end of town that seems to be the problem. They've got a culture issue there, and if McAdoo and Reese both vanish, and they hold onto their big names.... why couldn't they do a McVay/Pedersen? Personally, I don't hate their list. It needs work... but no more or less than the Eagles list did 12 months ago.

Is it possible to edit picks at this late stage, Macca? If so , Pats, Rams and Vikes.

Yeah. The more I think about it the more I think having gone through the pain, why would they go back. Especially seeing as there's a couple of highly touted QBs in the draft. I was reading today though about the Broncos possibly being talked into another Manning going there by Peyton. I sort of hope that happens.

One of the big things about the NFL that's great is the whole "big time player" and "clutch" thing, particularly with QBs. Guys can play for years and be good. Even MVPs like Ryan... but when the big moments come, that seems to define them. That's what has me interested in this current crop. Mariotta, Luck, Winston, Dak, Wentz, Goff, Wilson and a number of others... They can put together really good stats, and noone cares if you don't have the ability to find the play on the one play it's needed. Games seem to be close SO often. And playoffs are so fiercely contested. I reckon most of those guys haven't seen a really, really important one off play that's career defining. Wilson in his superbowls has them. Luck in his big time playoff comeback. The others haven't even started their "clutch" careers yet. These playoffs are gonna be unreal for that.

Yeah I've got a lot of time for him. I can understand the Peyton-Eli thing. They're related, one is regarded as the better player, both have 2 rings... scuttlebutt can be fun.

Pats Rams Steelers

Yeah. Just saying he cops it pretty harshly. I reckon more than half the conversations anyone ever had about how good Eli is had the Peyton comparison. Brutal. We don't get too much of that in the AFL. Probably just the Abletts, and even then, noone really cares.

And of course there's the Peyton comparison. Gee whiz, next year is going to be crazy in the NFC. Rodgers back = Packers 10 wins at least. Cowboys with Zeke and their O line in one piece, plus some good selections. Vikings with Bradford or Keenum. Seattle with less injuries and their D back. Rams are now as sexy as any team in the league. Sainst suddenly serious again, and have Kamara. Lions always thereabouts. So much red meat.

Or aiming to maintain some dignity as he's kicked out of NYC. Yeah. NFL is a three year rebuild league. No reason to take the MFC approach to list building. The trouble with that logic is that these other sides who are close, and some that are miles away like the Browns certainly COULD benefit and "win now." But if they could, why can't Giants? I always thought why not do the Favre>Rodgers thing of letting your first round pick QB settle in for a couple of years behind the beloved veteran. In fact I always assumed that's exactly what they'd do next year. Surely Geno Smith is a known quantity...

Yeah I didn't mean to sound like an Eli hater. He looked fine when he had a single super WR to throw to only a month or two ago... What I mean is just the time factor. He turns 37 in a couple of months... so using Peyton as a guide, he has a couple of good seasons left and then would fall away steeply. (Peyton might be different as he was massively banged up, but still...) So the argument then becomes what are you losing Bortles for and what are you gaining. Eli for a couple of years to contend, then you have to go look for someone again? Maybe that's what they'll do. It certainly worked for Broncos when their D was winning them games. JAX should and probably do rate their D that highly... So there might be something in your suggestion. I also reckon Smith would go great at JAX as well, btw. As for NFC East fans... we went from liking that McAdoo was there to just being resigned to the fact now that he has 5 games left, maximum. He's done. Frankly, I've always felt the same about Garrett. MInd you... I had no time for Dougie P either, and look how that turned out. maybe I'm just negative.

Jags only because of the Coughlin thing. I don't reckon he'd be too much of a massive upgrade on Bortles. They might think about it if they can get something good for Bortles, a la the Bradford trade when Eagles got Wentz. So Giants to take a QB in the draft... But which one will be competing against Dak and Carson (and Cousins maybe?) for the next ten years?

Just looks fake. Like they reversed the video for a second.

WTF?!!!

I feel like Eagles secondary gets helped a lot by other things... like time of possession, and how Wentz controls the clock and hasn't turned the ball over much. And obviously they get their picks because the front 7 put so much pressure on the QB. Rams are a different animal, with so many options, including a pass catching RB. Something Eagles haven't countered well... Also the secondary, outside of Jenkins, is all no-names. As many have pointed out, they've only played two teams with winning records, and lost to one of them. In a couple of weeks, we'll learn a lot about Philly. Rams I think we're seeing what they are already. They've seen through a lot of tests.

You neglected to mention the tie breaker you have now with them. After a loss, Rams were supposed to fall by the wayside. Instead, here we are, still none the wiser about what the hell is happening in the NFC. Eagles only need one loss to fall back into the playoffs more with Vikes, Rams, Saints etc etc... As a die hard I'm looking around at who can hold back the Eagles. With a 1 game lead, it has to come from one of the last 5 opponents. I'll put a line through Giants and Raiders for now, on form... Seattle with their injuries should be beatable. Dallas in week 17 might have given up the fight, or might not even be a live game... That leaves your dreaded Rams... So here we are comparing a top-flight Goff outfit to a top-flight Wentz outfit. We're going to have to do this again and again as the years roll by, and as the lists are overhauled every couple of years, as they are in the NFL. I could go into more detail with Defensive coordinators, offensive schemes, away form etc... but the way I see it is simple. Vikings scare me because of how organised they are, but they have a QB that I'm not sure about. Seattle have injuries. New Orleans have been beaten, and I'm not sure their D is as outstanding as it has been in recent weeks... But the Rams... The Eagles have got a lot out of a QB with one or two accuracy problems who has been in outrageously good form behind a dominant O line. What makes the difference for them though is that the defense (run D particularly) is making life veeeery comfortable for the offense, Giving them heaps of opportunities (=2nd in give-take turnover stat). Why do the Rams worry me? - O lines are comparable. - D lines are comparable. Donald might be the best in the league. Cox not far behind. - Receivers are multi faceted, if not out-and-out stars. Watkins = Jefferey. Kupp = Agholor. Ertz = Woods. - QBs are evenly matched I think. Wentz on the move has an advantage. Goff's arm accuracy is slightly ahead. So what's the difference? Not much. That's what worries me. Rams are good in all the areas Eagles are good. I get the feeling Blount, Ajayi, Clement and Smallwood vs Gurley and Austin could decide it. If Gurley can break the Eagles impenetrable run D... then they might have the edge.

I'm gonna see what odds I can get at TAB for Clint to win the comp.

Clint gonna be super hard to beat from here. Rams were so good. Saints are a really good side, and from what I saw they were playing well. Goof just keeps on keeping on. Little bit scared of them now.

Yeah fair enough