Doggo

as Doggo24 suggested, go with Bell. He's been a great improver this year and doing this will not only give him great experience but show some real faith in him (much the same way as we did for Bartram last year).

The more i think about Bell on Judd, the more i like the idea of it.

What is the worst thing that could possibly come from it? (Other than Judd being B.O.G, which in all likeliness, will probably happen regardless of match up)

Players like Ward, Brown, Miller, Godfrey and Jamar have played for years, often putting in below par performances that would see them getting delisted at most other clubs. They're given game time over and over again to prove themselves, which pisses me off when I talented kid like CJ is played off the bench for a game (or perhaps two) and then immediately dropped the following week.

How is he meant to be able to build confidence to perform well under those circumstances? He knows everytime he plays that if he doesn't have a great game he is the first one dropped from an under performing team, I couldn't begin to imagine the sort of pressure he is under.

Jarka has hit the nail on the head here.

I think he'll make it, as Jaded said, if not for Melbourne, then for another club that is willing to let him find his feet at senior level.

He clearly has the talent and poise, as well as the size and shape to become a solid, versatile "modern AFL player", more so than the older players who are in the side ahead of him, but is really just lacking confidence -- in himself, and in the coaching staff. He may have been sub-par in his performances in the home-away games this year so far, but what is the worth of playing the aformentioned players above him this season, being a lost cause already after 7 weeks? We already know the Ward's and Brown's (and to a lesser extent Biz, who the game has passed by) are NOT up to IT... so lets see if CJ is! We've seen what he is capable of before (for a few weeks in '06, in the NAB cup this year, and as a consistently good player at VFL level) and the talent he has shown, why not nurture it?

The difference betwen not being good enough, and not having the chance to show you ARE good enough is not a whole lot.

I like the kid, think he has all the attributes to become a good player. Just needs to be on the park for more than a half at a time, and be persisted with. FWIW, I think persistence is the key to unlocking players talents. Just look at the Ron Barassi / Norm Smith example... Now i'm not saying he'll be as good as Barass, but he will be a good player given the chance, i (almost) guarantee it. Better than Ward, Brown, Godfrey etc have been over the course of their 100+ game careers.

I think we'll find this year (and already have after just 2 weeks in the #2 ruck spot) that CJ's namesake Paul Johnson will be good enough-- he just needed that time on the park to prove his worth to the side over Jamar's. We know Jamar is NOT good enough, because he has been given ample opportunity on a week-to week basis to show something, but there are obviously several things lacking from his game that are required at the top level (main one being skill). PJ is now showing, after some faith (and opportunity) has been given to him, that he may well be better than many here thought, and clearly better than Jamar.

Same will happen to CJ if he is given a go, and shown some faith in. Rather than just playing the Brown's/Ward's etc, who we know of already, and in particular, we know what they are/are not capable of...

If we want to move forward after this horror season, CJ and guys of the like must be persisted with. We'll know after 15 weeks if he is up to IT.

Another loss another bash a player; this week instead of Bruce its Miller, suprise suprise

I think many people have formed / had this opinion for some time.

This, IMHO, is not a 'knee-jerk' reaction to a loss, or to our poor season. Rather, it is a constructive discussion about how we can improve our team in the long-run (ie. for the rest of the season and beyond). And for many people, myself included, Brad Miller has not been as good as we'd like, or expect him to be.

Not bashing a player, merely discussing ways in which we can improve the team, and at this point in time CHF is (and has been for a while) a big problem.

Is it season over for Melbourne in 2007, or will the Demons fight back and make a late charge to the finals?

Mathematically, NO. But realistically, it's going to be very very very hard from here to salvage a finals spot.

So, unfortunately, i had to vote 'YES'.

Here's to hoping they prove me wrong.

Cheers

Totally sick of Miller bashers

Why do people expect him to be as good as riewoldt. it is clear to see he is not the most naturally talented player. he does make some bad decisions on the ground, but he leads constantly, presents, contests every ball at 100%. He may not kick many goals but he spends most of his time leading up the ground not sitting in the forward 50. Calls for him to go back to the reserves are premature. No, make that stupid, as he played well yesterday, and came back on after getting injured. Is it the same people that suggested last week that Bruce get dropped? Statistics can be used to prove just about any point you wish to make.

Did anyone of us here say that we expect him to be good as Riewoldt?

My point is that while we have Brad Miller playing as one of our key position forwards, our forward line is always going to lack potency.

As much as he works hard and leads up the ground opening space for Neitz and Robbo, a CHF who can actually play as a forward is what we would really like. I'd actually like to see him learn to play as, and become, a good key forward. I just dont think he has enough natural talent to learn the hardest position on the ground at league level, hence sugggestions that he go back to the VFL.

Maybe we arent watching the same game, but i dont think he played well.

Accepting mediocrity, now THATS stupid...

Plenty of crap or just regular players have been picked in the top 4. We will finish 10 or 11 and get pick 6 or 7. I'd rather see us fight and see a few wins than fall over and lose every week like we have. Look at Fiora, and even players like Brennan, Goddard, Sylvia, Ray, etc who will play many games for their team, but none look like they will be superstars of the competition. Kerr was selected in the teens, S Burgoyne was at about 8, Cox was a rookie, Dal Santo was at 13, etc etc.. A top 4 pick doesn't guarantee anything

Well said. Couldnt agree more.

I also thought Jeff Wwhite was very harshly done by in the boundary throw in ruck contests all day. Can think of at least 4 occasions where he was clearly manhandled out of the contest, and wrapped up in a way that did not allow him to gte near the ball.

Got a mate to tape the replay for me, going round to his house to get it tonight. Will be able to point out the exact times later on (probably tomorrow).

Godfrey vs Kerr - he doesnt seem to like the physical, nagging side to the game, young Daniel. I'm sure Godders will give him a few 'horse tranq' jokes over the course of the day...

Bruce vs Embley - as much as i like the idea of Bruce playing on Judd ala Bruce v Hird, i just think this is a better match-up physically. Just imagine what Judd would do to Bruce with that burst of speed?

BELL vs Judd - Jaded put this one on the table, the more i think of it, the more i like it. Has the speed, strength, agility and engine to go with Judd. Could be a massive learning curve for Belly, who has come on in leaps and bounds this year and will only get better from the experience. And if he does well, it just adds another string to his bow.

Other options include Junior Mac on Judd (wihch is probably more likely), or Godders on Judd and Junior on Kerr. Maybe Ward to do a defensive midfield job if he stays in the side. Would at least make him accountable.

Other than that, i dont see us having too many options.

I think the crucial thing at 0 and 7 is to ensure the side as a whole is competitive and continuing to improve. As appropriate over the course of the year players like Newton should be and will be introduced. But they deserve to be introduced with a fair chance to succeed. Its a big ask for a first gamer to walk straight into a side that is struggle with success.

I agree it will be some time soon, barring issues of form or fitness.

I agree with all the points you have made here. I think we are very much on the same train of thought in regards to playing youngsters. It's common sense more than anything. However, i see one huge anomaly in Neale's selection reasoning and process...

What would have been the reasoning behind picking Garland against Sydney, when the season was still well and truly alive?

Surely, if he could justify picking him then, he can justify picking Newton now, given he has done more to warrant selection than Garland had at the time, and our season is now basically officially over?

IN: Petterd (if he pulls up, can really learn from the experience of going out West), Rivers (picks himself), C.Johnson (because he needs time this year to show if he can make it).

OUT: Moloney (really struggling with his running at the moment. Needs a rest i think), Holland (no obvious match-up), Brown/Ward (one of either to make way for CJ).

Cant really see any more changes than that. The CJ for Brown/Ward change probably wont happen either.

McLean and Wheels wont go to Perth after long layoffs. Danners will probably want to debut Newton and Buckley in Melbourne (and also not throw them into the fire of Subiaco).

Its more than putting on the scoreboard. Miller does not get enough of the ball and does not win the contested ball, try as hard as he might.

However, I dont see the natural replacement of Miller for Newton. The kid has had two good weeks (six quarters) at or around FF and you want to launch him at CHF. Miller is not the answer but there is no need to make a sacrificial lamb of another as a result.

Understood... but is it not worth a try, even just for a week in the same way we 'tried' Garland out? Who knows, he may just surprise us. And if he doesnt, no harm done. Not this week against the Eagles, but sometime soon.

I'm just sick of having a forward in our 50 who doesnt play as a forward.

What I would say is that if punters believe Neita and Robbo have performed well over the last four years, then maybe those same punters have been a little too hard on Miller. On the surface, his stats are certainly better than those of Neita.

I think one stat u have missed here is GOALS.

Both Neitz and Robbo have consistently scored over 40 goals a year in that time (and for several years prior). Miller is yet to crack 20 for a season (his best year was 13 goals from 22 games in 2004). He may get more than that this year, but i still cant see him scoring 30+ for the season. I know he has been chopped and changed a lot between forward and back, but IMO thats just not good enough output for a potential KP forward.

I wrote this in another post (the 3-word player analysis post), but think it may be more relevant here.

Miller, other than that one desperate dive which created a goal for Davey i think(?) (right after PJ took on Aker and pumped it inside 50), was not so good again. Dont get me wrong, I like Miller's physical presence and presenting and am by no means a 'Miller-basher', but i think he may just need some time in the VFL to learn how to play as a forward, if we want him to fit into our structure long-term. (Just an opinion, but he clearly is not a natural attacking player, and probably hasnt spent enough time learning this trade at Sandy. He really has been forced to learn to become a good forward at league level, and this along with not having that natural forward flair or goal-sense, has set him back somewhat in his career. Just an opinion, but one worth a thought.)

I'm ready and prepared to be lynched by the Miller supporters for saying this, but i see it as quite simple. He is not a natural forward, therefore, he wont hurt the opposition on the scoreboard. Is that what we really want from one of our Key Position forwards?

Juice Newts may not be ready physically or mentally yet, but neither is Brad ready to be an AFL KP forward. The season is now officially over for us, i'd really love to see the kid get a go, just as much as i'd love to see Miller start kicking bags at Sandy.

white had 22 touches around the ground, PJ8. darcy and street only had 22 between them, white was good around the ground. at the boundary throw-ins, white was unfairly treated as he was grabbed and held all day without getting a freekick.

They (the umps) really had a bit of selective vision in regard to the jumper holding and hands in the back rule. I can think of at least 5 occasions where White was clearly manhandled out of the contest by Darcy, where no free's were given.

I thought around the ground today, our ruck duo was better than Street/Darcy, though i must reiterate that i do think White was clearly beaten in the ruck contests for most of the day. But he owned Street and Darcy around the ground, as did PJ for short stints.

In fact, i thought we were pretty good on all lines for the majority of the match, bar the second half of the second qtr.

Spot on KrazyJay... all those guys played great games.

I really liked PJ's ruck-work today. A lot has been said of his lack of rucking ability, and also overhead, but he took a couple of nice marks and rucked really well against the Darcy/Street combo. Street was always going to be the most difficult ruck-tap player to beat today, but i thought PJ played that #2 ruck spot superbly, and more than held his own against him in the centre. 16 hitouts from probably less than half a game on the ground is a fair effort. White only had 15 for the day, and not too many to advantge, and was smashed in the middle by Street, and Darcy in the boundary throw in's at times also! PJ was really our best 'tap' ruck today IMO, and was pretty useful around the ground too. Loved him taking Aker on today right in front of me on the flank. Couldnt imagine Jamar doing that... Days could be numbered for the big russian, but, without any malice, cant say that i'm too upset about that.

Bell, love the boy. I think he's endeavour and hardness is just superb. Not to mention his closing spped... And he seems to only be getting better and better by the week. Still makes some bad decisions and lacks awareness at times, but i believe that will also improve in time with experience.

Flash was just magical today. Would not surprise me at all if he gets the 2 or even 3 votes in the Brownlow for that match, despite losing. Superb all day. Career-best game.

Sylvia's second half, TJ's 4 quarters, Bruce's second half, all were very good. TJ, i too was doubting earlier in the week. I'm just glad he proved me wrong, and hope he continues to do so. Bruce, while his disposal wasnt the best (again), was really the major catalyst, along with Davey, in our 3rd qtr comeback. Was just in absolutely everything! Really liked Bate's game, and also thought Brad Green was pretty good after a short lay-off.

All in all, despite the loss today, it was nice to see the boys (for the 2nd week in a row), believe that they can win again. A win really is just around the corner. And with a lot of big names to come back, we may even start a little streak.

My non-Melbourne supporting mate (goes for the Bombers) said he still thinks Melbourne will finish reasonably high (considering) this year. Not finals, but in the 9-12 bracket. Why? His reasoning was simple. Melbourne are a 'streaky' side, capable of winng and losing several games in a row. I told him, despite the poor start, that i think we still will probably finish above the 'Bombers. He said nothing.

And when we get names like Robertson, McLean, Whelan, Rivers, Pickett, Petterd, Bartram etc all back... it doesnt look so unreasonable.

why wasn't Bell given the job on him?

That was definately one match up i had pencilled in before the game. Never actually ended up eventuating. I think he may have spent 5 mins on him in the 1st half. But obviously ND and co. thought Carroll was the better match-up. They were probably also reluctant to take Carroll out of the goalsquare, and decided he (Carroll, our true FB) will play on whoever plays at FF, regardless of whom it was. Just a thought... otherwise, i really cant see the reasoning

Pretty much spot on. Probably a bit harsh on Green, otherwise well done again joeboy.

Just a couple of points IMO:

Thought Carroll was good, but B.Johnson is just an absolute superstar. Outclassed him.

PJ rucked really well in his short time on today. In the 3rd qtr he came on and just started smashing everything. And when he took Aker on right in front of where i was sitting... GOLD! Was really impressed. Thought he was more effective in the centre against Street than J.White was. White was fantastic all day around the ground, though couldnt get near it in the hit outs against the beanpole Street. And still makes some really bad desicions sometimes. Ditto Bell.

Moloney needs a spell. He was really struggling with his running. Just looking uncomfortable.

Miller, other than that one desperate dive which created a goal for Davey i think(?) (right after PJ took on Aker and pumped it inside 50), was not so good again. Dont get me wrong, I like Miller's physical presence and am by no means a 'Miller-basher', but i think he may just need some time in the VFL to learn how to play as a forward if we want him to fit into our structure long-term. (Just an opinion, but he clearly is not a natural attacking player, and probably hasnt spent enough time learning his trade at Sandy. He really has been forced to learn to become a good forward at league level, and this along with not having that natural forward flair or goal-sense, has set him back somewhat in his career. Just an opinion, but one worth a thought.)

Jones, i was dissappointed with. Very messy tackle late in the game.

Johnstone, thank god!, back to his best.

Sylvia, apart from a couple of shots he could/should have drilled... how good was he?!

Warnock wasnt too bad.

Liked Yze's game.

So anyway, for just my two cents worth:

Brown - disposal better today

Carroll - tried but outclassed

Holland - was pretty good

Ward - provided some run

Bell - still not beaten

Dunn - was not bad

Miller - Sandy next week?

Davey - career-best game

McDonald - solid dependable Junior

Godfrey - kept West quiet

Johnstone - back to best

Bate - coming of age

Sylvia - career-best game

Neitz - undisciplined, no impact

Johnson - rucked very well

White - great around ground

Jones - was slightly dissappointing

Moloney - could not run

Yze - consistently playing well

Green - 2 goals, good

Warnock - pretty decent game

Bruce - excellent second half

Rubbish.

Neita's horrific form and stupid 50m penalty, Jones' sloppy tackle that was paid in the back, players missing easy shots on goal yet again... that cost us the game.

Davey was brilliant today, and his run off the half-back line was the main reason we could compete with the Dogs.

Spot on Jaded.

To single out one piece of play as 'costing us the game', despite it being a very close game, is rubbish.

Davey was magical today-- tackles, run and carry, great disposal and even overhead marks. He was just everywhere. The amount of running up and down the ground he did, its little wonder he was looking to the bench. IMO, the best game of his career to date.

I'm serious... my prediction WILL happen... hehe

Never been so sure of anything in my life

Dees by 27

Melbourne: 3.1, 6.5, 12.8, 15.11 (101)

Bulldogs: 3.4, 4.8, 9.13, 10.14 (74)

GOALS: Neitz 5, Davey 2, P.Johnson 2, Dunn 1, Jones 1, Bate 1, Bruce 1, Miller 1, Green 1.

BESTS: Pickett, Bell, Bruce, Neitz, Davey, Moloney, Rivers

Warnock, Holland and Frawley the three to miss out on selection on the bench.

Pickett to return to form in a dominant blaze of glory... 30+ disposals off the wing/half back and several bone crunching tackles.

Bell to destroy Brad Johnson and limit him to 1 goal and 8 disposals.

Neitz to kick 5.3, including two easy missed set shots at crucial moments in the 2nd and 3rd qtr, but then dobs 3 from outside 50, one on the point where the 50 meets the boundary on the right pocket/flank.

Paul Johnson to 2nd ruck superbly in his limited ground time and drift forward for a couple of goals from lead-and-marks.

Davey 22 disposals and 2 glorious goals.

Yze and White unlucky to make the best 7 after very good games.

TJ goes missing again.

Bruce works hard for his 26 disposals.

Green makes very welcome return with some wonderful delivery to Neitz and Co.

Rivers shows why he's our best defender with a very polished, classy performance playing loose. 12 marks, 5 contested.

Godfrey gets beaten by West who has close to 40 touches (like he always does against us).

Moloney much better with his disposal this week.

Seriously... you wait and see... !! haha..

This is all going to happen...

Cheers,

Chris (peering from behind the crystal ball)

I love Barts'... the kid is genuiely one of the best late picks i've ever seen in my time of following the Dee's (admitedly, i'm only 22 and have only been watching the Dee's since '87)... but still, the guts and determination of the boy have really won me over. Reminds me so much of Junior McDonald in all the good ways (and even the bad ones with the shabby looking (but effective) kick!) Bart's (and Ricky P this year) are my two new 'love childs', so to speak.

Good onya Clint!

I thought he was pretty good today. Showed more than Jamar has recently in the same limited amount of game time. Worked very hard around the packs and really wasnt too bad in the ruck and overhead (his major weakness) against one of the best in the biz in Lade. And he'll only get better now too... I just hope ND persists with him and only brings Jamar back if he really earns it, and PJ deserves to be dropped...

And lets be honest, is Jamar's ruckin really that much better than PJ's? I think what PJ offers with his ground skills is worth more than what Jamar can offer overhead or in the ruck.

How did Jamar go today?

Good news with Neaves in the bests, but could be potentially diabolical for Jamar's career considering PJ probably showed more today than Jamar has for a long time...

Clint Bartram is Godders' heir apparent, and is undoubtedly a much better player. He's injured though.

I dont know about being Godfrey's 'heir apparent'... Give the boy a bit more credit than that!

I think Clint will walk straight into the James McDonald role... straight up. Same build, same shabby kick, same hard-as-nails attitude without the big body of Godfrey.

Point being, the boy can play. Not so much can be said of Godfrey's abilities...

If Neitz is fit, then PJ goes. Jamar is not rucking well, PJ cant ruck.

Are you kidding?

3) PJ cant ruck fullstop

Too much faith has been placed on the shoulders of Jamar. He was clearly a liabilty against the Swans, and has been for sometime.

PJ's short stint in the ruck against Everitt/Jolly was more effective than both White and Jamar's time in there... Give the boy a chance. I thought he showed a bit against quality 'tap' opposition. He surely can't be worse than Jamar, who really needs a spell at Sandy...