Doggo

On Bell...

Does anyone think he might just be getting a bit stale in confidence after the shellackings we've been tormenting our backline with this year? I know that seems like stating the obvious, but something not so obvious is, maybe he just needs some time playing another role in the side to regain his confidence and zest that he showed last year, but has really been lacking in 08?

I dont think i've seen it mentioned anywhere before, but how do people feel about playing Bell as a defensive half-forward?

There are many arguments for and against the 'Bell to midfield' case, the major ones being his lack of awareness and poor descision making under pressure, not ideal for inside midfield situations. I dont believe these would be as much of an issue playing in the forward half, where he could make the opposition's best running defender accountable, use his tackling and strong body to lock the ball inside 50, and become dangerous using his speed, good foot skills and strong mark for his size when we have the footy. Would be perfect for roles on Lindsay Gilbee type attacking defenders who always carve us up because guys like Robbo dont chase, and a good learning curve to help him improve his own attacking game.

Thoughts?

Even then the game against the Saints (I think) he (Minson) had about 8 touches but every pack marking attempting he almost rucked and hit the ball straight at his own feet whilst cleaning up about 5 players in the process. Reckon Doggies got 3 crumbing goals as a direct result of this

Physically I think Jamar and Minson are pretty similar (Will may be slightly taller) so if Jamar can do a similar job to what Minson does he'll be effective.

Whether he manages to even get there is a separate matter altogether

Jamar and Minson, despite their similar dimensions and weight, and style of play, arent neccessarily well physically matched. Jamar is big and strong, but moves like an ox and doesnt have a terribly big engine. He doesnt have the running ability of a Minson, or Charman, Ben Hudson and many of the like, 'bang-crash' type ruckman in the league.

I went to the WB v St Kilda game u mentioned with a friend who goes for the Saints, and the thing that impressed me most about Minson's performance that day, was when he was 'resting' up forward. His willingness to lead hard on numerous occasions and draw his teammates opponents toward him, forming big packs for the Doggies crumbers was good to watch. He might not have marked many, but his athleticism allowed him to constantly present and get to the ball, making him a dangerous target. It was a set play, as the Doggies always had lots of numbers at the fall, but it only worked because Minson was able to run hard enough to constantly present.

Jamar, on the other had, has physical limitations that have threatened his success at the highest level. As a forward he doesnt have the motor to make numerous leads, nor the burst speed to beat his opponent fast-leading, so relies heavily on his height in overhead marking and strength in one-on-one contesting to become dangerous-- hanging back in the goal square and calling for the long high ball. He doesnt make room thru constant forwardline movement, instead he occupies it. This becomes rather predictable for opposition defences and contributes to unwanted 'cluttered forward lines'. Around the ground, he doesnt find much footy because his lack of smarts coupled with those physical limitations don't allow him to easily make space and be useful when we have the ball. His movements are largely dictated by where his opponent goes. This can be great at stoppages and in contested 'traffic' situations, but once we have the footy, we're basically playing with 21 men possesion wise as he rarely makes himself an offensive option.

I noticed you said you prefered Minson to Hille at the Bombers? I like Minson, but FWIW if i were to choose between having big Wil or David Hille, i'd probably almost always go for Hille. The only thing Minson has on his side is age (23 i think?). I like Hille's clean hands and ability to push forward and become a genuine leading target when down there. I haven't followed his career that closely, but i've always thought he was a consistent contributor at Essendon from what i've seen. Just out of interest, what is the general consensus among Don fans re: David Hille? How old is Hille, 27 this year?

Both Hille and Minson are miles ahead of Jamar IMO, but i would take PJ over both. His upside is better. Better skills and footy brain than Minson. Harder at the contest and 3 years younger than Hille.

Well jeez... don't I feel like a pill...

I wish someone would come on and tell me where I went wrong.

Did he come runner up? Did he win a B&F?

I'm not getting him confused with PJ. I KNEW Pj won one, I'm just certain Mark had some highly-regarded award or something that made him look like a player back when he was in his early twenties.

Oh well. So that's the last time anyone takes me seriously on this site. I'm off to Bigfooty.

I think he may have won the 'Troy Broadbridge club Award' (for most votes by a Melbourne player in the Sandy B&F) one year, though i can't seem to find any records of it anywhere on the net. I'm not 100% sure on that one. He's always played consistently well at Sandy, though never out-and-out dominating the level.

Also, if i remember correctly (though once again i could be wrong), as a junior, Mark was named in the All-Australian U/18 side (as a top-age player) after good performances in the National U/18 Carnival for SA, and was considered by many to be very unlucky to miss out on National Draft selection that year. I vaguely remember, but i think he was widely regarded as the best (or rather, most 'ready-made') ruckman of his draft group, though he slipped thru to the rookie draft because experts believed his lack of leg speed, agility and a poor endurance base, as well fundamental kicking flaws and a lumbering style of rucking would not equate well to AFL footy. He played well against kids, and being an early developer was like a man amongst boys, but general opinion was that he was unlikely to improve much. Though being an All-Australian junior, a ready-made 18yo ruckman was definitely considered a bargain pickup in the rookie draft. Maybe thats what u were thinking of?

Unfortunately the recruiters and experts were right, and Jamar's game has improved very little over the years. He showed good signs against Freo though.

Really?

There is more to being a good AFL player than running into the biggest guy on the ground trying to get your hands to it first.

I didn't say the guy couldn't ruck. But I'd rather a guy who can break even in the ruck department while threatening to get 20+ possessions.

Opposition coaches (up until Sunday) must love seeing Jamar's name on the sheet. They know that possession-wise they're playing against 21 and a bit players. And matching him up around the ground is easy as pie. You don't have to worry about your defender betting run into the ground...

Besides, just winning the taps isn't everything. Usually he wins a lot of taps but doesn't necessarily give his mids first use. White was like this. He gets 20 taps a match, some come off, some don't... but he'll add to it with at least 15 possessions, sometimes closer to thirty.

This is turning into a Jamar bashing post. Not my intention, and thoroughly undeserved after Sunday. Look, if he plays like that 75% of the time from now on, then he has to be looked at for next year. But if he returns to ineffective footy, then my opinion of him will return to what it was before the Freo game. Simple.

Great post. Could not agree more. People seem to have short memories about how well PJ was playing, blinded purely by one good game from Jamar.

Players i defend (from criticism and the like):

Paul Johnson: as stated in another post, i saw PJ play juniors (we're the same age), and i picked him then as a player who could become very good at AFL level, and have stuck by him since. Liked what i saw of him in a few games at Sandy in '05, and thought '06 would have been his year if not for injuries. Last year he showed signs of improvement, but was dropped after just reasonable form from limited ground time, but got back in before the end of the year and finished well in the last few. Unfortunately, another injury has sidelined him after career-best form in the first 3 rounds this year. If we had not won, i'd think PJ would definitely be an automatic inclusion, and i still think he should be despite Jamar's form. His upside for the future is far greater than that of Jamar's, and he needs time in the seniors if 100% fit.

Brent Moloney: another who has been cruelled by injuries, and is lacking confidence at the moment due in part to a difference between the qualities he brings into the side, and the required type of player needed for our 'intended' new gameplan (though the 2nd half against Freo saw a return to the direct kicking style of 2006 in many ways). I watched the replay last night and wasn't aware of the extent of the spray he recieved from Bailey at qtr-time (i wasnt paying attention to the huddle at the ground, probably getting more drinks preparing for another shellacking at that stage ). The close up camera shots of Bailey singling out Beamer and Nathan Carroll were extremely intense (DB was just about to rip his head off!). It was unlike anything we've ever seen from Daniher, and to Beamer's credit (as well as Dean's for his spray), he lifted and grew in confidence, after what can only be described as an awful first quarter. His hardness around the stoppages, putting the big body in and blocking for his fellow midfielders, and his long direct kicking were definitely put into better use in the second half. I rate Moloney, and i think he needs a few games under his belt before he really hits his straps again. We forget just how much footy the guy has missed, and how effective he was prior to his long setback. After playing a few more consecutive games and hitting full fitness, his confidence will return and with that, his skills will improve from the low level he (and almost everyone in the team) has shown thus far in '08. I just hope he can maintain good form and keep himself in the side.

James Frawley: I've read some pretty negative stuff about young Chip in the past and have always thought it unwarranted. The kid is 19, and played 8 games in his debut season for the 14th team in the league. He was never going to dominate against anyone given the circumstances, but gee, in a few years these lessons learned now will come in handy, and he'll be a star. Some people just have extreme expectations of what his influence on the game now could be. He'll come good, but needs time at senior level to grow into his role.

Other players among my favourites whom i'll be somewhat generous to in sparing my criticism, include:

Robbo (though this year after rnd 1 i got so [censored] off at his performance, i took the 24 off my Melbourne jumper completely), Bartram & Bell (though these 2 have also gotten on my nerves somewhat this year with their poor form), Rivers (who doesnt love Rivers?), Buckley and Petterd (i like these two youngsters). And can't forget AUSSIE!

I find myself defending Aaron Davey a lot too to other supporters. McLean cops an unfair wrap considering he's only 22 and is clearly our best midfielder.

Jones will be part of my faves group soon, but needs to improve his disposal first.

Players I don't defend:

Mark Jamar: Has had a million chances to show us something, and he has only very rarely delivered. One of the luckiest players on any list in the AFL, i hope he can extract the best out of himself and have a good career, but i highly doubt it.

Jeff White: Not physical enough, and nowhere near damaging enough with his possesions. Seems to always go short, sideways or backwards. Does run hard, but just not particularly penetrating as a player anymore. Have enjoyed his service to the club, but is all downhill from here.

Lynden Dunn: I like the kid and think he shows infinite potential, but has delivered very little in his career thus far. A bit small for KP, lacking a bit of mobility to be a genuine midfielder. As a first round pick, expectations of him are high, but he needs to show more when he is in the side to cement his spot. Needs to find a niche. Could be at the crossroads at the end of this season if he doesnt break into the team and stay in.

Col Sylvia: Much like Dunny, promises so much but as yet has delivered so little. I have high hopes for Col, but like many other Demon supporters, am losing patience in the kid. Time to start delivering soon, or he could be just another player heaped onto the "Talented kid, but didnt have the commitment" pile.

Cameron Bruce: I dont consider myself a Bruce basher, i actually rate Cam and think while he is on our list, he is one of our most important players, though i understand i could get flamed for saying this. But... i just dont understand how his kicking has deteriorated so much since earlier in his career? Maybe i just notice more because i'm always looking for it now, but he shanks and wobbles more kicks than almost any other first-pick midfielder in the league, and has done since probably 2005. My issue with Bruce is that as a player of his experience, his skill level should be far more consistent than it has been in recent years. I've no problems with his endeavour, and love that he able to cover as much ground as he does.

Others on the list of players i'm losing patience with include:

Carroll (though i understand he is still very important to our structure, the sooner Frawley and the kids come on, the better), CJ (just hasnt done enough), Yze (time's up), Wheatley (i like him, but needs to do better with the ball when under pressure), and 2 of my favourites, Bell and Bartram (same as Wheatley, butchering the ball under pressure coming out of defence.) I understand most of these guys are backmen however, and we're doing so badly apart from our 2nd half aginst Freo, that its hard not to look shocking in our backline (unless your name is Jared Rivers). Newton should be stamping himself in the side, but instead is languishing at Sandy.

Miller used to be part of this group, but has earned a lot of my respect back this year. Needs to consolidate now though, and go on and have a big consistent year. We need what we got from him on Sunday more often.

I guess with all things, when your up things are great, when ur down, its hard not to be critical. Our team hasnt been great, and its easy to jump on and off player bandwagons. PJ is the one player i've always backed though, mostly due to the lack of opportunity he's recieved, and that Jamar has shown himself to be incapable of consistent performances.

Agree PJ was outstanding in rounds 1-3.

I'm not sure though that they'll want to mess with a winning formula.

Good on you, for supporting PJ. I notice you've always been a fan of him, even when he was out of form.

I watched PJ play a bit of junior footy, from a long long time ago, all the way to u18's, and he never looked like he wasnt going to make it. From a real young age, his agility and mobility for his height, his strength, and his great foot skills were very impressive. I admired him as a player then, and i guess i would really like to see him succeed. I was wrapped when he was traded to Melbourne, and after his Liston win in '05, thought he'd certainly make it at AFL level given a good chance to do so. Injuries have prevented that opportunity, and i feel for PJ as i think he is infinitely more talented than Jamar. Jamar has had countless chances, and i don't believe one very good game against a one-trick-pony in Sandilands justifies denying PJ the chance he earned earlier this year. And i can't see White being dropped (even though it would fast-track the development of our ruck division).

From my other posts re: changes V Adelaide:

IN: P. Johnson, Sylvia

OUT: Jamar, Garland

Jamar (a bit stiff to miss out, ideally would like to see White dropped but realistically, just cant see that happening).

Despite Jamar's improved performance this week against formidable opposition in Sandilands, PJ will get the chance to play at Sandy next week if fit during the week off, and should be ready to return to the team for the match against Adelaide. Credit where credit is due to Jamar, for he played the best game of his career thus far. But... it was still just 9 possesions and only 2 marks + 20 HO. We all know his strengths are he can ruck and likes the physical stuff, and just as well known are his weaknesses- his inability to find the footy and run hard to make space to provide an option around the ground. He played a good game on the weekend, but still has not improved on the major deficiencies of his game (something PJ has done). IMO Jamar still needs to do alot more than just one good game. PJ was flying when he broke his hand, and deserves to come straight back in.

PJ would have been leading our B&F or thereabouts, prior to his unfortunate lay-off since Rnd 3. Jamar has had 3 or 4 opportunities and only really has delivered in one of those games (against Freo). And there was nothing in that particular game that PJ was not capable of doing. I'm not saying Jamar doesnt deserve his spot though, if he's ever earnt a game, it would be against the Crows. I just think PJ did the hard yards early in the year to establish himself, and should considered automatic if fit.

If its not fair to Jamar getting dropped after the 'game of his life', consider this....

Twice in games where PJ has played the 'best game of his life' at AFL level, he has injured himself thru selfless team acts (3rd effort against Syd on the wing in 06 where he did his shoulder, and in Rnd 3 against Geelong he broke his hand at a stoppage the 1st qtr! Yet still soldiered on to be just about our best player on the day). On both occasions in the wake of his injuries, Jamar was handed an opportunity at the top level without necessarily earning his selection. His game against Freo, whilst being the best of his career to date, really still pales in comparison to PJ's last game (and best game).

I know stats dont mean a whole lot a lot of the time, but FWIW...

PJ averages 16 disp, 6 marks and 11 hitouts per game from his 3 matches in '08.

Jamar's game averages from 4 matches are 9.25 disp, 2 marks and 16 hitouts per game.

7 disposals and 4 marks per game less, but 5 hitouts more. They'd have to be some great taps to justify his selection over a fit PJ.

If PJ is right, we gotta do the right thing by him and by the team, and pick him. That would be fair...

I've always been very vocal in my criticism of Mark, but i am very pleased with his game on Sunday. He played as well as he simply can, and extracted every last bit out of himself. Something that he hasn't done much of in his career to date. What worries me, however, is that there were no signs of improvement from him in other aspects of his game, and he was not hurting the opposition in the air (which is considered one of his strengths). IMO a player as limited as he is will struggle against more mobile ruckman than Sandilands, such as Adelaide's.

People seem to forget just how well PJ was going in losing sides. Jamar made a good solid contribution to the win, but in no way was the difference between winning and losing. Had we lost to Freo, would we still be as pleased with Jamar's performance?

I'm surprised he's averaging that many.

Needless to say, for 'Donuts'... It a career-high average.

I have made a pact with myself to get one... a nice simple MFC old style logo with the word Premiers above and the year(s) below it.... I hope more than anyting that i actually get the chance to get the tatts before i'm old... i'm in my early twenties now, but u just never know... it could be a LONG LONG time before we see one. Although my big hope is for the 2010 season...

My mate's grandad was a die hard South Melbourne/Sydney supporter. Unfortuntely he died in 2004, and missed seeing his beloved Bloods win in '05. Call it ultra-paranoia if u will, but I hope that doesnt happen to me, to us...

Jamar will not be dropped V Crows. It's not fair on him after playing the game of his life.

But don't worry, Jamar haters, I'm sure he'll back to his usual tricks next game.

At least it shows we have a bit of ruck depth.

PJ would have been leading our B&F or thereabouts, prior to his unfortunate lay-off since Rnd 3. Jamar has had 3 or 4 opportunities and only really has delivered in one of those games (against Freo). And there was nothing in that particular game that PJ was not capable of doing. I'm not saying Jamar doesnt deserve his spot though, if he's ever earnt a game, it would be against the Crows. I just think PJ did the hard yards early in the year to establish himself, and should considered automatic if fit.

If its not fair to Jamar getting dropped after the 'game of his life', consider this....

Twice in games where PJ has played the 'best game of his life' at AFL level, he has injured himself thru selfless team acts (3rd effort against Syd on the wing in 06 where he did his shoulder, and in Rnd 3 against Geelong he broke his hand at a stoppage the 1st qtr! Yet still soldiered on to be just about our best player on the day). On both occasions in the wake of his injuries, Jamar was handed an opportunity at the top level without necessarily earning his selection. His game against Freo, whilst being the best of his career to date, really still pales in comparison to PJ's last game (and best game).

I know stats dont mean a whole lot a lot of the time, but FWIW...

PJ averages 16 disp, 6 marks and 11 hitouts per game from his 3 matches in '08.

Jamar's game averages from 4 matches are 9.25 disp, 2 marks and 16 hitouts per game.

7 disposals and 4 marks per game less, but 5 hitouts more. They'd have to be some great taps to justify his selection over a fit PJ.

If PJ is right, we gotta do the right thing by him and by the team, and pick him. That would be fair...

This is my first post since the win... still can't believe it, and have found myself several times today daydreaming about that last quarter... and the new love of my life, little Aussie! haha. Definite man-crush material

For the first time this year, we had a good, even contribution across the board (after halftime), and the way we drubbed em in that last quarter was sweet! We almost never looked like losing once the first goal was scored.

The two changes i would make i believe are positive changes, with two first-22 players back in from injury, in for Jamar (a bit stiff to miss out, ideally would like to see White dropped but realistically, just cant see that happening), and Garland, who showed improvement but is still terribly out of his depth at times. So...

IN: P. Johnson, Sylvia

OUT: Jamar, Garland

Bartram and Bell lucky to stay in, but they (along with Garland), did well in the backline in the 2nd half after a torrid 1st half, and are more important to the balance and structure of our backline (and side) than Garland is. The backline's work must not go unhearlded, so i'm finding it difficult to drop more than one player from that group.

The swaps are basically like for like given Sylvia is likely to play back.

Despite Jamar's improved performance this week against formidable opposition in Sandilands, PJ will get the chance to play at Sandy next week if fit during the week off, and should be ready to return to the team for the match against Adelaide. Credit where credit is due to Jamar, for he played the best game of his career thus far. But... it was still just 9 possesions and only 2 marks + 20 HO. We all know his strengths are he can ruck and likes the physical stuff, and just as well known are his weaknesses- his inability to find the footy and run hard to make space to provide an option around the ground. He played a good game on the weekend, but still has not improved on the major deficiencies of his game (something PJ has done). IMO Jamar still needs to do alot more than just one good game. PJ was flying when he broke his hand, and deserves to come straight back in.

I thought Garland showed more this week than he has in his previous games, but is still a fair way off. Sylvia is able to take the 3rd, 4th or 5th forward, and be more damaging on the rebound too, than Garland. But despite his omission, i think he is slowly improving, and that can only be a good thing. Will definitely get more chances soon

gee Bartram 12 clangers out of only 33 touches. That aint a great percentage!

Bear in mind, the clangers stat also includes Frees Kicks Against, of which Bartram has 7 (equal 1st at the club).

Having said that, i do think his disposal has really let him down since his return from injury.

Russell Robertson's form, especially from the 2003 and 2005 seasons. I know he's still there, but i miss the old Robbo. Robbo version 2008 is a mere shadow of the player he once was.

Not sure if its been written already and ive just missed it...

But how can anyone leave Ross Funcke out of a 'worst players' list? The worst drafting decision by CAC/ND & co... even worse than picking up Moorcroft IMO.

Jamar would be getting pretty close to landing on that list you'd think.

And to who mentioned Craig Nettlebeck... Round 1 1997. Nett's puts the big body awkardly into Wayne Carey's shoulder during a marking contest and dislocates it... putting Carey out for 14 weeks. That was pure gold...

Nettlebeck wasn't too bad, just not great. Very similar to Brad Miller.

White- has been a great performer for over a decade and we should feel lucky for every game he plays. while he plays we atleast break even in the ruck. without him we would be in the same position as collingwood and the blue who lose matches bc of lack of ruckman.

PJ= a good backup ruckman however will never be a number1 ruck...

conclusion= with White in his last 2 seasons, we better get Naitanui

Which Jeff White are have u been watching?

I loved Jeff in his peak, and am grateful for the contribution he has made to the club over the last ten years, but at this stage of his career, there is no way he's been breaking even in the ruck.

PJ, whilst no world beater in the centre ruck contest, all year has looked far more potent in the ruck than Jeff. He may not get the numbers White does in terms of overall hit outs, but his effectiveness with them is superior. I dont have the exact stats in front of me, but i've noticed in the paper in all games this season that PJ's effective HO % is always higher than White's.

There's no way we'd be as bad in the ruck as the Blues and Pies have been, because...

PJ + White >>>>> Fraser/Bryan, Ackland/Cloke/O'hAilpin

That's the worst news i've heard all year.

Bad luck PJ, cant wait to have ya back in 4 weeks...

Mark Jamar has to be the LUCKIEST player in the AFL. PJ was looking set for a big 08 and not like ever turning back. That's twice Jamar has been thrown a career lifeline by a PJ injury.

He was horrible last week but definately made up for it against Geelong. He has all the tools to be a good ruckman he just has to put it all together and show more aggression and he could be anything.

Who PJ?

I thought he pretty good last week, more than held his own in the ruck and round the ground, and was never unwilling to put his big body on the line. He missed those two goals in the first when we were still in it, but i wouldnt go as far as to say he was terrible. If i remember right, he got quite a few votes in both the Demonland and Demonology player of the year voting.?

buckley will be a damn good footballer. he doesn't need to learn how to kick, he needs to learn how to make better decisions, which he will do when he feels comfortable at this level. i wrapt to see a guy with soo little experience take the game on the way he does. his mistakes are typical of a player who is learning his craft at this level.

Great post. Agree 100%

I don't think Moloney would have been dropped... which can only mean one thing.... injury. ARGH!!!

I think you may be right Jaded.

Dean's playing a bit of funny buggers IMO...

Moloney, dropped? Ahead of Bruce, Green, Wheatley, White, Robertson and the plethora of other 'hacks' from last weeks performance...

You've got to be kidding... !

White is still rucking far too much, and doing far too little around the ground.

When the game was well and truly done-for in the third quarter, i thought Dean just HAD to play PJ in the ruck for the majority of the remainder of the game, and experiment with White forward or loose behind the play. Instead, he stuck with White in the ruck for the majority of the quarter and PJ on the pine and a short cameo loose in defence.

PJ didnt come back on, if i remember correctly, until just before time-on in the 3rd, and spent a fair portion of the last on the pine as well before rucking the last 10 mins or so.

Maybe PJ was blowing hard after half time and needed the rest, as he'd run his guts out and had around 10 touches to half time, but surely that 2nd half was the perfect opportunity to trial him in ruck with the added responsibility and see what he's made of?

He did well in his time on the ball though i thought, and was probably the best ruck on the ground up until half time. In the end he broke even in limited opportunity in the 2nd half and will take a lot away from that match. One of only less than a handful of MFC players who could hold their heads high.

Yes.

White was absolutely horrible and should be started on the bench next week.

The stats will say he got the most hitouts (28) of the 4 ruckman playing, but most if not all of his taps were ineffective, and his laconic work around the ground and off the ball today suggest that he was the worst of them. Possibly carrying an injury? Or just disinterested. Soft.

PJ's workrate, on the other hand, was phenomenal. Was one of only a select few who looked like they were willing to put in the gut-busting hard yards. A few of his fellow midfielders (and forwards) around him could learn a thing or two from his defensive efforts. On todays performance, he should be ready to take over White's spot very soon. And on White's performance, we need him to.

PJ was a positive in every way. White desperately needs to reinvent himself.

Just got home from the game after drowing my sorrows with 5 or 6 (more like 15 ) too many beers afterwards. I dont even want to get started on the negatives or i'll be here all night...

So, i decided to post in the positves thread. I'm far too [censored] to coherently comprehend my agonising memories of what transpired a few hours ago.

PJ's workrate today was phenomenal. Was one of only a select few who looked like they were willing to put in the hard gut-running yards. A few of his fellow midfielders around him could learn a thing or two from his defensive efforts. On todays performance, he should be ready to take over White's spot very soon. And we need him to. White was just not up to standard today. For a 'mobile ruckman' whose forte is supposedly his ability to win the ball around the ground, 8 soft disposals is just not good enough.

Other positives... ??

Moloney had a pretty good comeback. Jones tried hard as always though his disposal let him down. Buckley was encouraging again, but like Jones lacked polish by foot, and also made some poor decisions. Morton showed some signs, but is still a long way off physically. Not ready for '08 IMO. Weetra took a contested mark early in the game.... Umm, what else? Ummm....

Not much else to write home about. Even the positives have negatives in them.

Any word on Meesen's game?

Has anyone noticed how poor Meesen's handballing skills are? It can be argued that handballing skills for a big man are more important than foot skills. I am also surprised that Meesen has played more time on a wing, and in the forward line than as a ruckman. I understand Bailey is experimenting, but perhaps it would be good to see if someone 200cm can play in the ruck. Perhaps the experimenting of wing and forward line could have been trialled with white. That just seems strange to me.

I did notice he telegraphed a few in the game against Geelong, but whose skills by hand (and foot) weren't horrible that day? Geelong's pressure was top-rate.

It was quite strange that DB seemed to play Meesen as a tall midfielder, often going up as the 3rd man in the ruck at stoppages. He did a couple of nice things in that Cats game, but overall seemed too ungainly, awkward and slow-of-mind to play that role. And his time spent in the ruck didn't look much better. His ruckwork lacked the physicality and positioning know-how of the more big-bodied rucks on the list. He didnt look as well seasoned as PJ and Jamar to the role, and they are no world-beaters at senior level. He made them look like big raging bulls with some of his half-hearted (attempted) ruck contests!

It may seem like i'm having a dig at Meesen, i'm not at all, but i think if we are to see the best from him, he needs as long as it takes at Sandy to get accustomed to playing in the ruck and playing well in that position before bringing him into the team. Consistently dominating the ruck at VFL-level in the same way PJ and Jamar have over the last 3 seasons. Former top 10 draft pick or not, he needs to prove himself first.

The most worrying thing for me about Meesen at the moment is that, from first impressions he looks pretty good, but very similar to Daniel Bandy-type player. A 200cm, agile big fella with a huge tank, super athletic attributes, what looks to be a reasonably big-body and a big set of mitts... seemingly with everything required to excel at AFL level... except the ability to play football.

Though the same thing could probably be said about all our back up rucks at the moment

Going on PJ's performance against the Roo's, and a good game in the ruck in Cairns against the Tigers a couple of weeks back, i'd say he's probably our best bet for a spot in Round 1.

Jamar would then be next in line, whilst Meesen still seems to have a long way to go (in terms of his positioning in the contest, tap work, balance and strength). He will have to prove himself at Sandy before coming into the team. Both PJ and Jamar, whilst having only shown glimpses at AFL level, have consistently dominated at VFL level, and i'd imagine Meesen will have to show no less than what the other two have before getting a go in the 1's.