Howard_Grimes

I mean no offence, it was a bit of sarcasm. Appreciate your training rundowns!

Didn't mean to quote @dazzledavey36 *

I'm not sureeeee but I get the feeling that the players might not be willing to tell die hard supporters that attend training sessions their true thoughts on things.. Just a feeling I have, I dknow..

No worries, happy to agree to disagree. I think just as important is to bring in a new voice, new ideas and a breath of fresh air, especially for the older brigade. And I think Buckley is one (of a few) that are available and that have that kind of aura about them. And I'm of the belief that he'd have learnt a lot about his time at Collingwood, mistakes he made, things he did well/didn't do well etc. Melbourne supporters get too caught up in his 'Collingwoodness' and all that allegiance nonsense. And I think just as importantly, some stronger line-coaches would help. Again, no idea whether or not anything of the sort is financially viable. But as one of many, I'm ready for change. Goody is just a broken record now. No substantial/consistent change in our weaknesses for yearssss and no serious pieces moved in order to keep up with the pack. The players feel it. You can see it. Many supporters feel it. There comes a time.

Agree and have said much the same. It's also about evolving your list and sometimes these kinds of decisions are actually the right ones as opposed to keeping everyone together cause we 'love them.' I also think we did incredibly well to win a flag and that some of the talk around 'dynasty' and that we should have won multiple flags with the group is a furphy given how much the game has changed and constantly changes year upon year. I think that view gave many false hope that we were going to be a Hawthorn or even Richmond. The same problems existed throughout that 21' season. I'd keep trac over Oliver though. Ultimately, he is the more professional of the two, has leadership qualities, can play multiple positions and this year is just an easing back in year given what he went through so I'm not going hard on his form, which aside from last week has actually been pretty good. Oliver on the other hand has been a liability defensively for the last two years, still has issues that he's not over that have a big influence on his week to week and day to day training and then output. List balance, cohesion, connectedness and some fresh air for both parties imv.

One kick off having what Goody has. Featured in a number of finals campaigns whilst trying to rebuild a list on the fly. Had a 5-2 head to head record against Goody. Has openly stated he'd like to coach again and I know for a fact we had made an approach asking him about it not too long ago. When posters say things like, "game has gone past him", it's bewildering. Like, genuinely. On what grounds do you make that comment? He coached under Mick straight after retirement and then was a senior coach for almost a decade, falling short by a kick in a GF. And since then, has been in footy through the media, sharing his knowledge and insight into the modern game. Coaching is multifaceted, to say the games gone past him is just wild. Personally, I think the group is ready for a fresh voice but a voice that commands respect, inspires and has players on their toes again before they even speak a word to the group. Someone with gravitas. Someone like Buckley. I genuinely see us at a cross roads. I can't see our senior players maintaining a consistent spike in form before they retire under Goody. I think they're all too tired, too bored of the messaging, don't feel like they have anything to prove. I see all of this through a psychological lens separate from gameplan and list issues. I think it contributes to the in-fighting and arguing we see on field. It's all part of it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks this way. When the symptoms start repeating, you know there's something underlying and I think some of what we're seeing in performance, energy, vibe, confidence etc is due to Goodwin. And I think he needs to go.

Man, if someone from the media could take this to a presser of his and read it out to him. It would be all time. Sometimes I genuinely can't tell if he's just taking the [censored] at pressers or if he just struggles to expand on questions and freezes up/gets anxious in a public forum. I always hope it's the latter. Whilst we're on the topic, I'd take Buckley and an overhaul of some assistant coaches in a heartbeat at the end of the year if it Goody's payout wasn't crazy big. I don't know the details, but I just get the feeling Goody's messaging regardless of the 'progress' we're seeing, (are we though?), is getting so very stale around the playing group.

Isn't it interesting that you're the one using that word?

@Adam The God still likening us to Hawthorn of last year?

Of course it is, it's an enormous elephant in the room that nobody wants to admit. Huffs and puffs all year when his team mates make errors but aside from last week against the pies, he has been incredibly inconsistent within games and regularly making howlers.

I think the point is that more needs to be done. Yeh, two draft picks from last year who both use the ball well is great. But we need to start actually making some ground on teams in this area and make some more difficult calls on some senior players who are just not cutting it. We are going nowhere if we put the same names on the park next year.

Big fella!

It's the result of drafting and trading for players who are competitors and/or runners. It's honestly as simple as that. Composure, decision making and kicking have never been the number 1 priority since the 'Melbourne player' tag-line was introduced. When you have that many players on your list who all share the same weakness, this is the result. Kicking yourself out of the game. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If we don't want to be left behind in a big way, Goody simply has to make some difficult but necessary calls on moving some senior players on in the off-season. Oliver, Viney, Trac, Rivers. Their inability to execute skills at important times is unbelievably bad. Oliver was just wild today when he got the ball. No care. Viney, same story. Trac, same story. Rivers lacks serious composure too. We need to make some hard calls at the end of the year, Oliver needs to go. I'd be willing to let Fritsch go and I hope May retires so Petty never plays forward again. Plus I think May is just not a great team mate. Hard calls. Make them Simon.

How much is Oliver getting paid again? Holy [censored], I don't think I've seen a mid like him simply not care about their disposal. Just no care.

Oliver dump kick inside 50. Handball options on or even taking steps out of contest to give himself time. Not sure how many more examples we need before people realise how surplus to needs some of our mids are. Same [censored] different game. Contest keeps us in it. Same story, over and over.

Fantastic forward craft there. All forwards leading back to goal, not one came to the footy carrier. And of course, results in another wasted inside 50 under no pressure.

Viney's kicking inside 50, geez we've missed it..

This should put to bed for good the excuse that in the past our lack of efficiency came from having shots from 'lower percentage areas' like the pockets. Sure that could be factored in. But. The overarching reason we are so poor in this area and bottom of this particular list is down to having a a large group of players who lack composure overall. And it'd be fair to say most of that comes from open play shots on goal. And it's been this way for years. Kicking ourselves out of games, literally. All over the ground but especially going inside 50 and at having shots on goal.

JVR is overrated by many and I think some of his early career games gave some false hope to some on here. He is an undersized key position utility who played his footy as that, a utility before drafted. And his under 18's year was mostly played as a key defender. An important couple of facts that people miss. He is most certainly not a natural forward. His positioning, leading patterns and overhead marking are simply not at the level that some would like to believe. So I think it's more about lowering expectations with him. As for the hypothetical of a Jackson trade, you'd simply have to entertain it. Jackson has far more upside given his talents and attributes. And I agree with others on Riv and Judd being too important and embedded in our group. Having said that, you'd hope losing JVR for Jackson wouldn't cause unrest in the group and they're obviously factors that will all be weighed up at the end of the year. The positive is that whenever a player wants to leave due to personal reasons, the club that player leaves from ultimately accepts unders. And with the addition of being able to trade up to two years in advance, we may not have to give up a young player like JVR. I do think someone will have to go though in order to clear some money and get in some more picks for getting creative. An Oliver and Fritsch would do it for me. (Fritsch out of contract at the end of this year too I believe which is interesting).

Not for you after that cheek.

He signed yesterday, announced today. I'll take it.

I just believe the thinking around our list needs to be more expansive. Which I know is hard on supporters forum! What our footy could look like without one of those players. Not a world where we try and fit them all in. We've been doing that for years with a return of the same results. Inefficiency going forward, inaccuracy at goal, poor ball movement and just a general inability to remain composed when pressured. Viney as a pressure forward just to make room Oliver is just shuffling deck chairs in my view. I think we just need to be honest now about where we're at as a side. Oliver doesn't scare opposition. Viney either. They know that whenever our bulls get the ball, all they have to do is apply a bit of heat and it will be turned over more often than not. It's been the same story for years. Viney butchering the ball in the forwardline vs the midfield is hardly an upgrade. It's funny, Collingwood could still unravel us even when those mids of ours were at their contested best in 21. Which should tell people a lot. The game is about moments and making them count. Collingwood are ELITE in that regard. They have players who consistently make the right decisions and execute more often than not regardless of pressure. Regardless of losing contest. Regardless of losing total shots at goal. Regardless of losing the inside 50 count. That is all it is. Simple. So it comes down to list. Balance. Attribute diversity. And with that, hard decisions sometimes need to be made for the betterment, growth and evolution of the list. And we're at that stage in my view. My concern is that Goody is so embedded in that group from a personal relationship standpoint that he will simply not be able to part ways with one of them. But I hope that is only my concern. If I'm in charge, I'm making some bold but necessary calls at the end of the year. Clarry and Fritsch, you've been stars for us, helped win us that flag, but we're going to move you on. And so a new chapter begins.

*Delete*

I am okay with it yes, but not just for the compensation pick and salary off the books in isolation. I think there are a couple of potential positive roll-on effects from moving him on. For one, I'm of the belief that we already function just fine and arguably BETTER without one of Oliver and Viney in the side. I think an argument can absolutely be made for that given what we've seen when either of them have missed games over the last few years. And no, I'm not just talking about last year when Oliver missed and was a liability at times on the field. Supporters are obsessed with individual stats and accolades and whilst Oliver's strengths when at his best are in the elite category, we've had a surplus of midfielders who dominate in this area too. Which is why it's not nearly as much of an issue as some think. This is especially so when all those players share the same weaknesses. Two, I believe moving him on will breathe new life into the group, I think a weight will be lifted. I genuinely believe that and I know some of what he's dealing with thanks to some inside info and I think a move would benefit both parties. Three, getting to your points about return picks and salary cap off the books. Like all trades, it's never about what you get straight back in return given the multitude of scenarios that are at a club's disposal through pick trading etc. But in short, I think it would allow us to further correct/balance the list either via trading up the draft or trading for a player.

Unfortunately for the fans, something has to give. It's a nice thought to be of the view that Trac and Clarry are getting back to their best. And even if they are, (I'm skeptical) their weaknesses as players too often highlight our issues as an entire side and too often it rears its head. Far too often. Not sure if I mentioned how often. TOO often. Take nothing away from our 2021 finals series and run to that incredible campaign. It was magic. But I think if supporters look through a broader lens at our issues from years 18-25, you'll see that not a lot has changed. Whether it's inaccuracy at goal, wasted inside 50's, bombing long, missed kicks or handballs, the theme is always the same. And they're all symptoms of an issue that we've always had. Composure. Across the board, too many individuals that we've persisted with do not possess enough of this trait. And it's been our Achilles heel for coming on eight years. Granted, Godwin's game-plan and our list build didn't require a great deal of compusure which is why we still see the lingering effects in our current on-field performance. If I'm going to be blunt, I don't think we can go into 26' with Viney, Trac and Oliver playing together. And I actually think the best move for the club going forward is to move Oliver on. For us and him. I think some supporters are still stuck in this vortex of the 21 finals campaign. As if we will still magically click and get back there, without realising that the game has changed, teams completely unravelled us not long after and our best players of that year are either coming to the end of their careers or players like Trac and Oliver have their own issues and there are absolutely no guarantees that either of those two will get back to their 21' form. Add to this what I've already pointed out about our list overall having an inability to show composure consistently and it's clear as day that we cannot continue to hold on to all of these players. And for the record, it's not that I think our players don't have any composure. It's that they don't display it anywhere near consistently enough. Which brings all the issues we see with inaccuracy, wasted inside 50's, missed targets, fumbles, etc. At the end of this year, we have an opportunity to make some hard but necessary calls and god do I hope Goodwin has the balls to make them. I fear that he won't but I hope he does.