old55

OK, thanks for that. I mistakenly thought it was you who started the rumour on here but it was @Still Waiting who hasn't come back and explained how the Saints give us an "early 2nd round pick" that they don't have. Cheers!

Where are these Watts to Saints rumours coming from?

It's not a rumour. It's what I would like to see happen. Pick 10 + 2018 1st rounder for Lever + Crows 2017 1st (17?) Crows 2017 1st + Kent for Gaff I'd sweeten both deal with steak knives (e.g. later pick swaps - ours are earlier than theirs) if necessary.

Agree with that. Otherwise hang on to him.

Starting to sound like you're making scenarios up as you go along. Do you actually have inside knowledge of Saints interest in Watts? FWIW I wouldn't do that deal. I expect we're going to trade our 1st rounder and I don't think it's going to make much difference to the deal whether it's 7 or 10 so it's really Watts for Saints 2018 2nd rounder which is a poor deal. A deal I would do is Watts and our 2nd rounder for pick 8, then we could use 8 and 10 in deals for Lever and Gaff.

Scott Selwood, Ty Vickery, Daniel Wells, Chris Mayne - all 2nd round compo Gaff will be valued higher than that - end of 1st round minimum., so for WC to bring forward a trade to improve on that it's going to need to involve our pick 10 (or some other 1st rounder we can import), and there's not much comparative value to them in 2018 1st rounders either. That was my original argument.

I think he would be in the top 5%. It takes a substantial offer to get him to move and there would be a competitive bidding war. Prestia went for pick 6 (and 2nd round swaps) on a reported 5 year x $700k deal.

If Gaff stays at WC next year and leaves as RFA at the end of 2018, WC will get a 1st round pick compensation. A trade this year would have to better that - pick 10 absolute minimum.

Why would he come cheap now? He'd get a FA contract that would net WC a first round compensation pick next year so we'd have to pay more that that this year to make it worth their while, i.e. pick 10 minimum.

Saints don't have a 2nd round pick - they have 7, 8, 43. Maybe you can clarify with your source?

Wow, just half a day to get a trade done if a club matches the RFA offer but the player still wants to go.

Great wins: Crows (A), Eagles (A) Good wins: Saints (E), Essendon (E), Dogs (E), Port (MCG) Respectable wins: Collingwood (MCG), Saints (MCG) Ordinary wins: Carlton (MCG), Gold Coast (TP), Carlton (MCG), Lions (MCG) Honorable losses: Cats (E), Tigers (MCG) Expectable losses: Swans (MCG), Crows (TIO), GWS (A) Poor losses: Freo (MCG), Hawthorn (MCG), North (MCG), North (A), Collingwood (MCG) There's more "Great" and "Good" wins than "Poor" losses. I think the former show that we can compete at the highest level (including the losses to the Cats and Tigers) - we defeated 4 of the top 8. But the sheer number of the latter show that there's an ongoing cultural problem at the club. Goodwin rightly says he's not interested in ancient history and that this group is writing their own story. There's some good chapters and bad chapters in that story already.

I didn't see the side's steel and composure in the winnable matches against North x2, Freo, Hawthorn or Collingwood. For a player of Lewis experience and credentials, there is no try, only do.

I think Goodwin is a very good coach with a game plan that can win finals. He shows a lot of flexibility and creativity at selection and on match-day and seems to have a very good relationship with the players. The players he brought to the club - Hibberd and Melksham - they were there when the whips were cracking and both have been good pick-ups. I like his handling of the press conferences, he knows what we need to improve and he'll make inroads. We've got some game play issues - inability to make and stick tackles, inability of most of our players to reliably hit easy targets, inability to compete in the air around the ground. Some are easier to fix than others with personnel upgrades. Culture and on-field leadership clearly remains a problem - we lost 5 very winnable games this year, we need the new generation of leaders to come through.

Lewis played consistently decent football at the end of the season and was among our best 5 or 6 which is good. But let's not kid ourselves - the expectation was that his on-field leadership would influence a different outcome in exactly the situation we found ourselves in on Saturday. Maybe it surprised him - after all it was only the fifth time a similar thing happened this year. It is measurable because we lost when we should have won. His playing limitations are well documented in this thread and his capacity is declining. Will he even be in the best 22 this time next year to be able to provide that influence? I'm not calling his recruitment a fail, but I'm not calling it a success either.

The proof of the pudding ... Jones has led by example for years. I expect more of Lewis, that's what we recruited him for. We failed at the final hurdle and really that's exactly the situation I expected him to be able to change. I can't call it a success.

I love Bernie, but Melksham has gone past him in the midfield/tagger/forward role. If Lever comes Bernie will be pushed out of the backline. Bernie said he loves playing footy, wants to play on and is willing to play at Casey. I definitely think we should extend him - it's a long season and while he may struggle for a regular spot in the 22, Bernie is pretty good depth

Lewis' influence was supposed to prevent this from happening.

Thanks Drunkn - hopefully all those listed MFC players can play and don't need to be sent off for surgery. I really hope Brayshaw plays - he has missed a lot of footy and needs games - and has the opportunity to play as a starting mid and develop in that role.

I think the core are: Hogan, Jones, Petracca, Viney, Brayshaw, Gawn, Oliver, Hibberd, Melksham, TMac, Hunt, Garlett, Jetta. Delists: Lumumba, Trengove, Garland (contract pay out, staff job), Hulett, Spencer (UFA), Kennedy, White (R) Rookie elevation candidates: Keilty, J.Smith, Maynard (but only if we have to). Looks like we're going to retain T.Smith, Filipovic. There's other players I'd persist with who are still developing (e.g. Hannan, JKH, Weideman, OMac, ANB, King, Johnstone, Harmes, Wagner), have limitations but are depth (e.g. Pedersen, Bugg), have been injured (e.g. VDB, McKenna) or are experienced and have some limited footy left (e.g. Lewis, Vince) Needs: We need quality, not more role players - Inside/Outside mid (like Gaff, Zaharakis, I.Smith), Lever. I don't think another ruckman is vital - we can provide cover with King, TMac, Pedersen - maybe rookie a journeyman. Tradeable: we'll need to give something with potential value - pick 10, 2018 1st, Tyson, Stretch, Kent, Frost I'd like to retain Salem and Watts - despite their limitations they are just about the only players on our list (apart from Hibberd and possibly Weideman) who can kick the ball consistently well, but if it took trading them to close the deal on a real need then I'd do it.

We did a great job to put ourselves in a position to play finals in a tough season with injuries and a young developing side. But to fail to deliver the final blow like that was pathetic and inexcusable - can't make or stick a tackle, can't hit a short target and can't create a contest in the air. Really that was a disgraceful performance and very few players could hold their heads up - ironically two of them are former Essendon players. It's going to be a very long summer.

I've supported Jake's retention up to now but he needs to move on. Try his luck elsewhere. If Max were to go down this week, I would prefer to go into the finals with TMac/Pedo/Watts ruck combo that served us well this year - that's where Jake's rating has fallen to. Mitch King will have another pre-season under his belt - we may not need another back-up ruck option - we probably want King to be Casey #1 ruck next year for his development. Filipovic backing him up.

That's the form 22 for this year excluding Viney. Plenty of incentive for the team to play finals and plenty of pressure on individual players to perform. Casey will play finals next week but AFAIK none of this 22 can play - the criteria are "not play for MFC in R23" OR play 6+ games for Casey. That means their selection rivals will have two matches to make their case if there are any form or commitment stumbles this week. And hopefully Viney automatic in.

Suggested in the Dec thread .... Could be that we want to name Dec as an emergency so he needs to be on the list. Could be that TMac is out for Frost and they want a tall emergency.

Agree with that!