Gator

Talk about cherry picking. Jones has been in the system and half of that time was rubbish. Cotchin has his faults but is a vastly superior player.

No, Cotchin is more talented and has performed at a better level over their careers. Given the choice of both footballers I'd take the one who has performed better and has a higher ceiling. You got caught out saying "Wow", etc. because you struggle to analyse basic concepts. Other posters then have to waste time spoon feeding you until the penny drops. You then complain that you're just expressing an "opinion". But no, you were ridiculing another poster who was using sound judgment free of bias. Let's look at another measure, i.e. Brownlow votes: Cotchin already ranks 5th on Richmond's all time list with 100 (153 games). Jones is doing quite well with 56 (201 games). Cotchin is second on Richmond's all time list for average votes per game. Jones ranks 36. Cotchin has 19 BOG's. Jones has 6. Btw, Jones has also only had one A-grade season and his first 5 years were crud. By any measure Cotchin has been the better footballer, but you keep deluding yourself.

Firstly, Jones played all of 2015 as a 27 year old. Secondly, 28 is STILL in your primes as an AFL footballer. It's peak prime. While I agree that Cotchin has played in better teams the Tiges are still bog ordinary. He hardly has this huge advantage when he's one of the first tagged every week. Deledio is never in the trenches with him and Martin plays high half-forward with occasional forays into the middle. They're still trying to improve their midfield. Cotchin has made AA on the back of one brilliant season. His team DID NOT play finals in the year he made AA. Jones has never made the squad of 40. Yes, I did point out that Cotchin is more talented. So what ? He is. That isn't "changing" a story, it's an observation. One you say you share. Seemingly stats don't matter when they don't favour your argument. Imo, there IS enough of a difference to show who has had the better career to date. It's not a huge difference, but virtually all the key stats favour Cotchin (virtually no difference in tackles). Cotchin is a B+ footballer and Jones is a B+ footballer. There's not a lot in it, but there's enough evidence on talent and stats for me to conclude one is better than the other. Especially when Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. I expressed a view that I'd take Cotchin ahead of Jones. Big deal. It's just MY opinion. Your reply was "Wow. You started out at least trying to use reason, now it's just getting silly." It was a stupid reply. But it was a reply befitting your standard contributions. I also agree that Jones offers intangibles from a captaincy point of view and he's improved his leadership over the last couple of years. My opinion was based more on football. The option to swap isn't realistic, so I didn't take captaincy into consideration when stating who I'd take.

Yep. If you can't perform in finals you're as useful as a cold pie. Cotchin should get more chances to redeem himself and Jones will get another taste of finals action, if not this year then next.

You do realise there's a reason for those stats and accolades ? At the age of 22 in 2010 Selwood won Geelong's B&F. It was in the middle one of modern AFL history's greatest dynasties. Have a look at the names in that side and how many games they played for the season. Jones was a chump for the first 5 years of his career. Yes, it didn't help playing for a rabble devoid of a strong senior group. But I don't know in what parallel universe you can claim Jones to be Selwood's equal. It's utter nonsense.

I knew it wouldn't be long before the gadfly popped up. The facts are Cotchin's best season is better than Jones' best season. Cotchin made AA in 2012 and he did it in a team that finished 12th. Cotchin averages more disposals, marks, goals and rating points (90 to 79) throughout his career with 50 less games (numbers usually go up as one's career progresses). Cotchin has also won 3 B&F's; and in a team that has been superior to Jones'. Cotchin has had one A-grade year and Jones has had one A-grade year. Cotchin is naturally a more talented and skilled player. I've already said Cotchin has been disappointing over the last 3 years, as I expected him to become a superstar, even then he's averaged more possessions, goals and ratings points than Jones. If Melbourne supporters prefer Jones that's great, but for you to utter the words "wow" and "silly" only confirms that you have an iq bordering on you know what.

The team aspect won't be quantified unless Jones plays alongside him at Geelong. My eyes tell me he's clearly a better player and stats and peer recognition suggest the same. You don't win B&F's playing alongside premiership players in Scarlett, Enright, Ablett, Bartel, Taylor, Kelly, Corey, Johnson, etc. unless you're a star. Selwood isn't just skilled and tough, he's also a superb reader of the game and decision maker. It took Jones a long time to improve these aspects of his game. Selwood won a B&F in his 4th year. It took Jones until his 6th season to play decent footy. There's no comparison. Unless of course you're a biased Melbourne suppoerter with blinkers on.

I was in two minds as to whether I responded or not, but I can't let it go. Selwood is unquestionably a couple of classes above Jones. Selwood has won 3 B&F's in a far superior team and alongside champions of the game. He has 4 AA. Jones has never made the squad. He's been named best captain in the AFL. Four times he's been named the AFL's most courageous player. He also won the Rising Star award in 2007. I appreciate it's harder to play well in a poor team, but on no level is Jones the equal of Selwood as a player and I find it one of your more baffling suggestions. Also, in 3 more games Selwood has 350 more tackles. You don't have to be a star to tackle. It's just that Selwood is driven to do everything well. And tackling is just one more area where he's superior to Jones.

Cotchin has more talent than Jones, but he's not a star. He has the potential to be a star, but he's disappointed over the last 3 years. Cotchin has had one great season and I'm surprised he hasn't gone on with it. He was brilliant in 2012 and has been disappointing ever since. He couldn't handle a tag at under 18 level and he's yet to show he can consistently handle one at AFL level. And 9 possessions in a final when you're captain is abysmal. That said, I'd take Cotchin over Jones without hesitation.

A flag is all I care about. To win a flag you need "stars". Jones isn't and never will be a star. If we're to win a flag we need players like Brayshaw, Tyson, Viney, Oliver, Salem and Petracca to become stars. Clearly not all will and maybe none will, but if you want to see a flag you'll need 2 or 3 to become elites of the competition and certainly better than Jones. That's not a knock on Jones it's just reality. Hogan will be a star and if Weideman can reach 60+ goals then the makings will be there to get a chance at a flag if 2 or 3 of the above reach the required level. Why do I have a sixth sense Stu's head will bob up with some inanity ?

If he's only half as good as Jones I'll be devastated. If he's as good as Jones I'll be disappointed. I fully expect Oliver to be a better player than Jones. We need him to be a better player than Jones.

I suspect young Viney towed the company line when he had a pretty fair idea what was going to go down. I wouldn't put much emphasis on his comments.

Stringer was being touted as a strong candidate for pick one prior to the leg injury.

Paul Roos on Oliver this preseason: “Young Clayton has come down from the country. He’s got a good size AFL body, which gives him a bit of an advantage over some of the first-year players. He looks like he’s going to be a good runner too – he burst out of the blocks in a 300-metre run. But he’s learning good habits, like all of the young kids.” – Paul Roos They're just sifting through Roos critique and putting their own slant on it. They're offering nothing original or new. In other words, it's complete guesswork. The following is what that article says about Josh Wagner: Joshua Wagner: "Knows what he is doing, has a good left foot but needs to improve his running." This is what Roos said about Wagner on the club website: "he’s a nice left-footer with good skills and he knows what he’s doing.” – Paul Roos

You should be punch drunk by now. Your position has no merit.

I don't share Curry's view that he shouldn't be anywhere the MFC, because I'm more interested in the best possible playing list and a flag. I'm not that pious. However, I have very little sympathy for the players, because they knew the were pushing the boundaries and as a collective they deliberately lied to ASADA.

Of course we got Melksham for the "long haul", but only Stu would think that the club and AFL industry as a while wasn't very surprised by this outcome. The club rolled the dice and got burnt.

Google the benefits of some minor warming to the planet and higher CO2 levels (even though CO2 doesn't drive temperature). Interestingly, the only query you made about my post, which identified that 'climate change' is socialism dressed up as GW policy, was about warming being more beneficial than cooling (which is true).

No disrespect mate, but on a scale of 1 - 10 your knowledge of AGW is in the negative. Learn the difference between weather and climate.

Climate change has nothing to do with the climate. It's a new form of centrist socialism. At the UN's Agenda 2030 there's a list of “Sustainable Development Goals” (SDGs). Goal number 10 calls on the UN, national governments, and every person on Earth to “reduce inequality within and among countries.” To do that, the agreement continues, will “only be possible if wealth is shared and income inequality is addressed.” Christiana Figueres, the Executive Secretary of UNFCCC, warns that the fight against climate change is a process and that the necessary transformation of the world economy will not be decided at one conference or in one agreement. “This is probably the most difficult task we have ever given ourselves, which is to intentionally transform the economic development model, for the first time in human history“, Ms Figueres stated at a press conference in Brussels: “This is the first time in the history of mankind that we are setting ourselves the task of intentionally, within a defined period of time to change the economic development model that has been reigning for at least 150 years, since the industrial revolution". And you think it's about the climate ? The planet heating would be more beneficial than cooling. CO2 levels are not dangerous. The planet is not warming "dangerously". This is about wealth distribution.

It was only an early glimpse, but I liked the look of him at training. He reads the play really well at a stoppage and loves bursting clear. A nice touch was Jesse wandering over under his own volition and joining in two or three stoppage drills with the newbies and Brett Allison. After one of them he had the groups attention for 30 seconds or so as he gave some tutelage. He then wandered off somewhere else. He has an unmistakeable leadership quality.

There's no doubt you're right, however, I've always been excited by young players coming to the club - finals or no finals. It's the regeneration of a club and a glimpse into the future. I'll never tire of seeing quality players start their career.

It's Knightmare's comparison, not Jason Taylor's.

Not sure you'll get much of a response. The alarmists round here seem to be weather beaten.

Firstly, I changed my view on Oliver in the space of 24 hours (Nov 19). The draft was 5 days later and there were no leaks from Melbourne. Anyway, I'm not swayed by club selections, although I have faith in Taylor and reckon he's earnt the benefit of the doubt. Secondly, recruiters watch highlight clips all the time. Do you recommend they not waste their time ? Obviously you'll say it's an adjunct to what they've already witnessed "live". And just as obviously, highlight clips give you an idea of a players ability, such as speed, style, courage, skill, aggression, etc. No-one has insinuated it paints the whole picture, so I'm not sure why you need to state the bleeding obvious. He didn't look "really slow" as you attest and other views that I've quoted are at odds with yours. Thirdly, Boyd and Weideman are not similar types. Snoop Dog even uses Boyd in an analogy to explain why he's not like Boyd. "Sam is a natural forward unlike guys like Boyd etc who have been drafted high in previous years. I think coaches really value key forwards that haven't got their success camped in the goal square clunking marks but rather kids who understand how, when and where to lead. He has real speed and many will find it hard to close space on him once he is ahead of them." Here's Knightmare's bio: 10. Melbourne (via trade) – Sam Weideman (VIC – KPF) Height: 196cm, Weight: 91kg, DOB: 26/06/1997 Recruited from: Eastern Ranges Range: 3-10 Profile: Explosive marking power forward. Reminds me of: Josh Walker I concede that the bolded is stretching it. This from Chris25: "I don't think it's out of the question that he would have performed better than Schache at the Championships. I think he's a smarter player and a better kick. I don't understand those saying he gets by on strength alone. That's so far from the truth." You won't change your view and I won't change my opinion of it.