You're all tip and no iceberg, BBO.

I just had a thought. Amongst all of your bravado and chest beating, a picture of a 4' 11", balding, wafer thin, sad old man sprang to mind (fully clothed, thankfully). Is that the real you, Bitter Butt?

Delete the optimistic part from your name. It's just not you.

your dreaming of KB, Moon...

BBO surely would be all Dorsal Fin,,, nil dido

as much as I would love to read all 150+ posts in this thread, I have a cheese grater and a bottle of vinegar, and applying them to my sensitive areas seems more appealing, so i'll just add my 2c based on the OP

I agree with your general position in that our results/ladder position and the response from the media and our own supporters is an exaggeration of how bad we actually are. However, the thing I cannot get past is this: ever since Daniher got cooked in mid 2007 we have been looking towards the future on the strength of young draft picks. I take the following list back a few years prior to that, because clearly the fruits of earlier drafts were supposed to form part of this equation:

2012 3 Hogan
2012 4 Toumpas
2012 26* Viney (F/S)
2011 12 Mitch Clark (via trade, originally drafted at pick 9 2005)
2010 12 Lucas Cook
2009 1 Tom Scully (deserter, but were reimbursed through compo)
2009 2 Jack Trengove
2009 11 Jordan Gysberts (Brock McLean trade)
2009 18 Luke Tapscott
2008 1 Jack Watts
2008 17 Sam Blease
2008 19 James Strauss
2007 4 Cale Morton
2007 14 Jack Grimes (Travis Johnstone trade)
2007 21 Addam Maric
2006 12 James Frawley
2005 12 Nathan Jones
2004 13 Matthew Bate
2004 15 Lynden Dunn (D.Jolly trade)
2003 3 Colin Sylvia (Priority)
2003 5 Brock McLean (later traded for pick 11)

So what's the wash-up of all that? It's 10 drafting periods with 21 players taken at pick 21 (26 inc viney) or earlier. In that 21 there are 8, 9 if you count Viney, taken in the top 5! OK so you can leave out Hogan, Viney and Toumpas for age and also Scully because of what we were reimbursed through his departure. That leaves five: McLean, Sylvia, Watts, Morton and Trengove of the 'top-shelfers'. Two of those are write-offs and the other three remain 'big potential/still waiting for delivery' players. On top of that, we have got an extra 12 players into the club who were late-first/early-second round draftees. By my reckoning we have 2 success stories in this group, in Jones and Clark, with the jury still out on Blease, Tapscott, Strauss and (hatetosayitbutitstrue) Frawley and Grimes.

So what am I getting at? Well, we have had an exemplary ride in terms of our pick of talent for a long time, by virtue of the fact we have been continually belted 6 years in a row (and parts of the 4 years before that in the Daniher 'yo-yo' era). With 9 top-shelfers and 12 on the next rung down we should be looking at a powerhouse list. Instead we are looking at 2 genuine players with another 10 on whom the jury is still out and 9 players who have ended up being total busts for the club.

What this says to me is not tht we have some knack of 'picking the wrong blokes' but the machine of the MFC is incapable of developing its talent in the same way that other clubs can and do. I don't think a single person here would dispute the notion that in order to be a successful club, you need, amongst other things, to be led from the front by a group of players who are amongst the best in the league. There is no 'champion team' BS, you need these league-leaders and a supporting cast of players that are worthy of playing AFL footy*.So.. until I see some real evidence of how we are going to start getting the best out of our talent rom here on in, it becomes fundamentally impossible for me to have any confidence whatsoever in the future of the club.

..and that my friends is a conundrum if ever there was one.

* this is evident from so many other clubs, the one that springs to min most prominently is Richmond, who are going very nicely at this point. What's the difference between them and us? well, Martin, Cotchin, Delidio, Riewoldt and Vickery are all high draft picks who have actually developed into the good players they were supposed to become when they were drafted.

* this is evident from so many other clubs, the one that springs to min most prominently is Richmond, who are going very nicely at this point. What's the difference between them and us? well, Martin, Cotchin, Delidio, Riewoldt and Vickery are all high draft picks who have actually developed into the good players they were supposed to become when they were drafted.

I think they got the picks right. Finally. Remember, they were considered a basket-case in terms of recruiting under Wallace. Martin and Cotchin's recruitment helped their team unequivocally. It enhanced the delivery to Riewoldt and the reasonably unexceptional Vickery. Get our drafting right at the end of this year and all of a sudden a lot of those whose jury's are still out, become potentially just as valuable as players like Delidio have become since the drafting of Cotchin and Martin.

* this is evident from so many other clubs, the one that springs to min most prominently is Richmond, who are going very nicely at this point. What's the difference between them and us? well, Martin, Cotchin, Delidio, Riewoldt and Vickery are all high draft picks who have actually developed into the good players they were supposed to become when they were drafted.

Vickery is an okay player, not in the company of the others listed. Also, if you look at why they are doing well, its because of their trading. Houli,Chaplin,Maric, Grigg, Knights among others is what has helped them progress and cover the cracks of their drafting.

I think the the drafting since Neeld came on board has been solid give the challenges of getting both youth and experience while turning over a stagnant and under-performing list.

Clark, Hogan, Viney, Toumpass, Dawes, Terlich, M Jones, Byrnes have all been good pick ups (too early to call on a couple), and all recruits have fully engaged in lifting the fitness level (according to pre-season reports). And have got Casey firing such that there is real pressure on places in the MFC team.

If you intend to be a hard team you need to recruit and develop hard players. Losing Morton, Gysberts, Martin, Cook and replacing them with the above boys can only improve us.

I think the the drafting since Neeld came on board has been solid give the challenges of getting both youth and experience while turning over a stagnant and under-performing list.

Clark, Hogan, Viney, Toumpass, Dawes, Terlich, M Jones, Byrnes have all been good pick ups (too early to call on a couple), and all recruits have fully engaged in lifting the fitness level (according to pre-season reports). And have got Casey firing such that there is real pressure on places in the MFC team.

If you intend to be a hard team you need to recruit and develop hard players. Losing Morton, Gysberts, Martin, Cook and replacing them with the above boys can only improve us.

we have had a few young players get a good crack and show abit this year, that's always exciting, we just simply need the time, most of our list needs another 4 years before they will be getting close to their best football, Mark Neeld is not overstating how inexperienced we are.