OUR BEST 22???

[stueyspencer no12 73]

I am with you also.. I have been asking for a long time exactly what Rivers has done to be revered as some sort of club legend

if you'd seen Rivers play on Riewoldt in a huge game in 2006 after Riewoldt kicked about 8 goals in the ist half against Nicholson, you'd understand why Rivers is special and deserves some slack. Riewoldt was dominant but only kicked 1-2 goals thereafter. The St Kilda coach commented on the extraordinary effort of Rivers. Whether Riv can regain that form remains to be seen--if not he's not in the best 22.

As to Rhino's comment that he can only fit in 1 ruckman, surely you can't put together a side in which there's NO-ONE to provide cameo assistance in the ruck. I disagree with Rhino's comment that when Newton/Dunn have been playing this role we've been smashed in the centre--indeed in the Collingwood match an ex Collingwood player near exclaimed--'Geez Fraser--you can't even beat Newton" The point is that someone such as Martin will play a role if perchance Jamar becomes injured in the first quarter. The displays of Hawthorn surely demonstrate how hopeless it is trying to play out a match without a backup ruckmman. Indeed had they had a backup against Geelong they would have won. Poor Renouf couldn't contest at all in the last quarter.

As to Petterd I must agree that he has a place in our best 22. He's better, in many respects, than Bate in my view.

[CarnTheDees 52]

Based on the football that we know the players are capable of playing (i.e. assuming full-fitness and full-form):

B: Garland Frawley Bartram

HB: Grimes Rivers Macdonald

C: Morton Moloney Davey

HF: Green Bate Sylvia

FF: Petterd Jurrah Wonna

Foll: Jamar Jones McDonald

Int: Bennell Bail Martin Scully

Emerg:

Trengove (hasn't sold me just yet but potential is there)

Warnock (I prefer Rivers)

Bruce (disposal not up to scratch)

then

McKenzie

Watts

Jetta

Dunn

Edited April 20, 2010 by CarnTheDees

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

I haven't read the whole thread so forgive me if has been mentioned but would there be a place for McLean in our best 22? I tend to think he would struggle to get in.

Struggle to get more than a bench role particularly if you have Beamer and Jones in the mix

Best 22? I don't really care at the moment. I'm just enjoying the fact that it is harder to fit a player into the side than it is to drop another. Depth is a bloody nice thing to have and we should enjoy it while it lasts.

I'd rather enjoy the quality that develops that distinguishes our stars (and potential stars) from other good ordinary footballers. Depth is only good if you have quality at the top end. If depth reflects all players around the same mark then its an illusion.

And generally smugness about "depth" usually dissolves after one bad loss or two losses in a row.

if you'd seen Rivers play on Riewoldt in a huge game in 2006 after Riewoldt kicked about 8 goals in the ist half against Nicholson, you'd understand why Rivers is special and deserves some slack. Riewoldt was dominant but only kicked 1-2 goals thereafter. The St Kilda coach commented on the extraordinary effort of Rivers. Whether Riv can regain that form remains to be seen--if not he's not in the best 22.

Its a fair bit of slack you are cutting him. Its four seasons ago when he did that to Riewoldt. The Roo would slice him up today as he is a far better player than 2006 and epitomises how the game has changed. Rivers is struggling to get back to 2006 form. He needs to be better than that. Since 2006, we have developed or recruited Frawley, Warnoch, Garland, JoelMac, Martin, McNamara. We are not as bereft of defenders we once were and the names I given offer more than Rivers in a number of areas. I am not saying he finished like other posters but he needs to be able to perform at a higher level to survive in a competitive environment. The back 6 is looking reasonably settled and many are still young and developing. Now where does Rivers fit in and can he sustain a role within the back 6 that cant be provided by one of the other names.

As to Rhino's comment that he can only fit in 1 ruckman, surely you can't put together a side in which there's NO-ONE to provide cameo assistance in the ruck. I disagree with Rhino's comment that when Newton/Dunn have been playing this role we've been smashed in the centre--indeed in the Collingwood match an ex Collingwood player near exclaimed--'Geez Fraser--you can't even beat Newton" The point is that someone such as Martin will play a role if perchance Jamar becomes injured in the first quarter. The displays of Hawthorn surely demonstrate how hopeless it is trying to play out a match without a backup ruckmman. Indeed had they had a backup against Geelong they would have won. Poor Renouf couldn't contest at all in the last quarter.

The issue with Newton/Dunn is that neither Collingwood or Richmond made us pay for having non rucks in the ruck. We rolled the dice and got away with it. I cant see how Newton can be best 22 when he has failed so often as a forward and was dropped by the footy dept for Richmond. Cant be that good. And we missed him so much against Richmond didnt we? Picking Dunn in the ruck is like picking Bennell to play on the gorillas. Ridiculous. Martin cant even get a game ahead of Newton so he cant be best 22. Picking a non performer and inferior option gives you little insurance if Jamar goes down. If Jamar goes down we are stuffed until Spencer or GAWN develop. I cant see the sense of weaking another area of the team to allow some nervous nellies to sleep at night. I have Spencer on the emergency bench hoping he improves.

[e25 5]

In reference to the OP, how can you possibly include Tapscott, but not Gysberts or even Blease..?

How the hell are we going to squeeze all this talent into the side??

I think it's inevitable that we will lose some players to GC17 or GWS or even another club and they will be guns there too.

There's not much we can do except make sure we let go of the right players.

[Guest Thomo]

I would have Martin in the best 22. Can play forward, back and back up in the ruck. The big problem at the moment is what happens if Jamar goes down, Martin could fill this spot, but unlike Spencer at the moment can also fill others.

Three years from now, maybe Watts will be the backup ruck?? I guess it depends on if he plays predominately deep in the forward line or runs like Riewoldt. If he is running, he will be needing a rest himself and would not be able to fill in. Any chance Jurrah could relieve in the ruck down the track? Probably a bit short and certainly does not have the body for it at the moment, but has a huge leap and in a year or two he should be able to do a better job than Dunn and Newton are doing, and they have been serviceable.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

In reference to the OP, how can you possibly include Tapscott, but not Gysberts or even Blease..?

How the hell are we going to squeeze all this talent into the side??

Unproven so far. I dont see how you can include any of them.

I would have Martin in the best 22. Can play forward, back and back up in the ruck. The big problem at the moment is what happens if Jamar goes down, Martin could fill this spot, but unlike Spencer at the moment can also fill others.

I could have sworn that's exactly why Martin cant get a game at the moment. He has not shown he can play any of those roles.

The problem is obvious, the solution is not so but will hopefully evolve.

[Guest Thomo]

Unproven so far. I dont see how you can include any of them.

I could have sworn that's exactly why Martin cant get a game at the moment. He has not shown he can play any of those roles.

The problem is obvious, the solution is not so but will hopefully evolve.

He Can play back, forward, or ruck. How well he plays them is up for debate.

I believe he is a better Forward/Ruck option than Newton at the moment, and I think we need one of these in the team. Until a better option comes along, for me, Martin gets the nod.

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

He Can play back, forward, or ruck. How well he plays them is up for debate.

I believe he is a better Forward/Ruck option than Newton at the moment, and I think we need one of these in the team. Until a better option comes along, for me, Martin gets the nod.

See your point. And I understand your dilemma. I cant see how Newton could get a gig so its Martin almost by default

[stueyspencer no12 73]

See your point. And I understand your dilemma. I cant see how Newton could get a gig so its Martin almost by default

well, I'll accept that reasoning.

But let's change this debate to one about the best 22 for Saturday night. Whilst I think Newton was serviceable in his 2 matches, I would unhesitatingly pick Martin for this match. Spencer might be the better knock ruckman, but we've agreed that in his presnt form Jamar will do most of the rucking. While Martin has kicked 6 goals over the past 2 matches for Casey, and that will give him a little confidence, he also brings to the team another big defender option, in case either Frawley or Warnock get killed [figuratively, not literally I trust]

And now Moloney is free to play I think Martin should replace Bate or one of the on-ballers--not certain which. Someone would be stiff.

2 other things to reflect on. We need a forward who can run with/harass, limit the effectiveness of Josh Drummond. Bate is simply not that man. And Brennan and Riccitelli? Who plays on them? That's a reason why I'd prefer Dunn to Bate

[Rhino Richards 1,467]

2 other things to reflect on. We need a forward who can run with/harass, limit the effectiveness of Josh Drummond. Bate is simply not that man. And Brennan and Riccitelli? Who plays on them? That's a reason why I'd prefer Dunn to Bate

If you want Martin to pinch in the ruck then I think Dunn has to go. Bate hurts an opposition up forward more than Dunn. I would make Drummond accountable on Petterd. Bruce on Brennan. One of the mids on Riccitelli.

[Guest Thomo]

well, I'll accept that reasoning.

But let's change this debate to one about the best 22 for Saturday night. Whilst I think Newton was serviceable in his 2 matches, I would unhesitatingly pick Martin for this match. Spencer might be the better knock ruckman, but we've agreed that in his presnt form Jamar will do most of the rucking. While Martin has kicked 6 goals over the past 2 matches for Casey, and that will give him a little confidence, he also brings to the team another big defender option, in case either Frawley or Warnock get killed [figuratively, not literally I trust]

And now Moloney is free to play I think Martin should replace Bate or one of the on-ballers--not certain which. Someone would be stiff.

2 other things to reflect on. We need a forward who can run with/harass, limit the effectiveness of Josh Drummond. Bate is simply not that man. And Brennan and Riccitelli? Who plays on them? That's a reason why I'd prefer Dunn to Bate

I thought Martin for Dunn, but now when you sugest Dunn to follow Brennan I'm not sure. Glad I'm not picking the team.

[big tuna 0]

I would have Martin in the best 22. Can play forward, back and back up in the ruck. The big problem at the moment is what happens if Jamar goes down, Martin could fill this spot, but unlike Spencer at the moment can also fill others.

Three years from now, maybe Watts will be the backup ruck?? I guess it depends on if he plays predominately deep in the forward line or runs like Riewoldt. If he is running, he will be needing a rest himself and would not be able to fill in. Any chance Jurrah could relieve in the ruck down the track? Probably a bit short and certainly does not have the body for it at the moment, but has a huge leap and in a year or two he should be able to do a better job than Dunn and Newton are doing, and they have been serviceable.

Would hate to see either Watts or LJ in the ruck with their light frames (even in 2 or 3 years). Certainly could help out with boundary throw ins up forward... but in the middle with big bodies crashing into them it would be a matter of time before they were seriously injured. Either no back up ruck at all or use Martin coz he has the size, speed and jump & gives you options at both ends. Martin is the best option until Gawn develops in a few years time.

[red and blue 0]

Wonna has not played in 18 months but at least we know what he was capable of. What has Watts done to deserve a spot? Is that any more than what we know of Wonna? Based on what we have seen and not predicting what a player may do my 22 would be.

Backs Bartram Warnock Garland

HB MacDonald,Frawley,Grimes

Mids Trengove, Moloney, Davey

HF Sylvia Bate Morton

F Bail Jurrah Green

Rucks Jamar McDonald, Scully

Int Bruce, McKenzie, Bennell, Jones

Emerg Rivers, Martin, Dunn

I absolutely disagree, have you been watching the same games as us or are you just an avid bate fan and avid petterd hater? petterd has done a lot better than a lot of those forwards and deserves a spot. he has kicked a lot of goals and has done some pretty spectacular stuff. no matter what you can say about that last little bit against colllingwood his magic, goal-scoring, courage and leading almost won us that match. He kept us in it. I know bate has been playing well but petterd would come ahead of him AND bail. jayceebee31 i think you're totally right about bruce, ive seen every match on tv this year and all he knows how to do is handball and give it straight to the opposition.

Backs: MacDonald Frawley Garland

HB: Morton Rivers Grimes

Mids: Trengrove Moloney Davey

HF: Sylvia Bate Petterd

F: Wonna Jurrah Green

Rucks: Jamar Mcdonald Scully

Int: Mckenzie, watts, bail, Jones

I do know where you're coming from but i think you're being awfully unfair on him. I dont know how warnock, bartram, bennell, dunn and bruce could possibly keep their spots. Disposal is the main problem with bruce. i think who we need most out of all of those guys is jurrah coz we've lacked a tall target up front. hopes we can beat brisbane this week

[ickey_11 145]

Backs Bartram Warnock Garland

HB MacDonald,FrawleyGrimes

Mids McKenzie,Trengove,Morton

HF Sylvia Watts Petterd

F Davey Jurrah Green

Rucks Jamar McDonald, Scully

Int Bruce Bate Moloney, Bennell

Emerg Bail Rivers Spencer

This team is missing a second ruck. And from what I have seen during pre-season, Jurrah cannot play full forward (maybe swap him with Sylvia or Petterd).

[2014-Flag 0]

Only Jurrah,Watts and Morton would be best 22.

I struggle to see JoelMac being unseated for Rivers. Particularly on recent form.

Wonna has not played for 18 months and needs to establish himself. Bennell has more runs on the Board can play up the ground.

I am not sure why Bartram is out as it leaves us with no one to cover the small forward. Bartram has been good in the past two weeks as well. And he is leading the grabs for that role.

Backs Bartram Warnock Garland

HB MacDonald,FrawleyGrimes

Mids McKenzie,Trengove,Morton

HF Sylvia Watts Petterd

F Davey Jurrah Green

Rucks Jamar McDonald, Scully

Int Bruce Bate Moloney, Bennell

Emerg Bail Rivers Spencer

Not a half bad team. Indeed a top 4 team IMO