He is an enigma, at times I feel like I want to put number 34 on my jumper, but i also think that you cannot afford to carry players who can't kick. Can you teach yourself how to kick? I'm not so sure. Worth persisting with for now at least, would love to see him develop into a good player.

Its the same with any skill it can be improved though practice

the problem is its hard to replicate pressure on the training track as your chance of injuries is much greater

It is not just a matter of kicking the football in what most people consider their comfort zone

Todays players are running flat out when disposing of the ball by hand or foot

Under conditions such as tiredness or exhaustion let alone the pressure put on by an opponent what looks like a simple skill can test your mental capacity to do it consistently well

Good players can do it somtimes

Elite players can do it most times

At present most of our players are lucky to do it once a game

No doubt we are getting better though

As far as Martin is concerned i think he is a definite worth keeping player going forward

What i like about him is he is a hard match up which is probably why Connolly states his future utility role

Swampie, it is his flexibility and rate of improvment that facinate me - I overlook his kicking too much at times.

I was just rapt with his efforts, applicaiton and outcome against the Bombers.

Having watched most of the replay last night I am even more dumbfounded by the criticism of Rivers here. I think during his injuries people developed false memories that Rivers was a 30+ possession defender who averaged five goals per game.

He's a defender, his job is to stop forwards and he has been doing that.

On Martin, at the game I thought he looked OK but on TV it showed he was much better than I had thought.

Hmm sounds like a similar plan our former coach had with one Brad Miller - that worked out well didn't it?

Give him a position and let him own it, we already know he has what it takes to play back if he's not required there then leave him as a forward so the bloke can learn the trade, chopping and changing positions 4-8 times a game won't help his development IMO.

This is the other side of the argument. We screwed around with Miller, to no avail, and I worry sometimes that switching Martin from one end of the ground to other within the course of a quarter of football isn't allowing him to learn enough about either end of the ground.

Don't know titan. He seems to ahve been used this way throughout his time at Sandy - at least i remember seeing him ruck and play KPB. I think that he'll end up being a Mr fixit for us but the weakness is as you called it - that he never learns to 'stick' one position much less three.

This is the other side of the argument. We screwed around with Miller, to no avail, and I worry sometimes that switching Martin from one end of the ground to other within the course of a quarter of football isn't allowing him to learn enough about either end of the ground.

The thing with Stef is that he's already a competant defender... I don't think he needs to learn too much more down there to be a good backman for us... Obviously he'd get better at things like running off his man and attacking with more practice down there, but we've got others like Chip who can do that... He won't lose what he's got there by playing in other positions.

If he's going to be a forward, then he needs to get lots of practice down there. He's shown us how agile he is, kicking two fantastic goals for Melbourne, with limited time down forward. Ideally he plays down forward for most of a game, with stints in the ruck if required.