Jara

Maybe my memory's playing tricks, but I seem to recall they also put a lot of money into the Western Bulldogs (not to mention $30 mill to Foxtel to increase coverage of women's sport) We're the oldest club, we started the league and haven't had a proper home for decades; should be able to mount a pretty good argument.

Hmmm...guessed as much. Lots of "anecdotes", precious few books.

Pro - You keep boasting about what an "expert" you are on Islam. You said back there your expertise was based upon your wide reading and "anecdotes". I'm not interested in the latter (which I presume is Pro-speak for unmediated rubbish you see on the Internet), but what is this "reading"? What are the books you've read? (I know you've mentioned the Koran, but using that as the basis for an argument would be like using the Bible to condemn the Christian West) By the way, I'm still waiting for your explanation of what you mean by saying you're "cause-based" and we're "side based".

im just home and having a quick look on my phone but i don't understand. Is this a picture of the Eid festival or something? Why are you posting it? Am i missing something or is it just a photo of people praying?

Thanks When was it? And i suppose it might be difficult to say but what did you mean "you've done your bit" in fighting terrorism?

Ethan Could i ask where and when that happened?

What's this! Pro doesn't do sides. He only does causes.

Yes, Earl, you're a disgrace. Your grammar is hopeless. Now off to bed. And Pro, congrats, you're the grammar king. Well done on picking up the "your". But you let the side down with that "absolving Islam with FGM". What's that supposed to mean? How do you absolve a religion with FGM? Sloppy work there Pro.

Hi Raf I think the world would be better off if one's relationship with the Divine was regarded as a personal matter. So I don't think much of any organised religion - they all seem to attract a few decent people, but the power-hungry wa*&#kers float to the top.(That said, I quite like Quakers)

Not the diplomatic corp, Earl. Pro's big regret is that he wasn't born in Austria in about 1890. He could have really made a name for himself then. Now go to bed and stop supporting FGM and Third World soot.

Now look Earl, I've been meaning to tell you, you really ought to do something about this mental illness of yours. You should see a doctor. Hang on - what am I talking about? I am a doctor. Let me help you. My diagnosis is that you've been spending too long trying to engage in "mature conversation" with knuckleheads like Pro, who, for example, boasts about being an expert on Islam but has never had a serious discussion with a Muslim or blasts us for doing nothing about soot, even though he's done nothing about it himself. This fellow has a serious case of Dunning-Kruger effect (i.e. too stupid to know how stupid he is - it's incurable). My advice: take a nice long holiday and read some Sufi poetry.

Sorry Pro, I'm another ignorant buffoon - I apologise - maybe I'm still in shock after Monday's game, but I've re-read your post and I still can't follow your line of reasoning. There we were, having a nice friendly argument about Islam in the West and then suddenly you throw in this stuff about soot. I mean - I'm as worried about pollution as the next person (in fact, when it comes to health effects from coal-burning fires I suspect I'm more experienced than you - I've spent a couple of years in China - studied in Beijing for a year in the early 80s - my god, the pollution from those coal stoves - we'd go for an evening stroll through the hutongs and come back with our faces ((and lungs, I presume)) covered in black soot - we've been back quite a few times - things still bad) So when I saw that initial UN report I was glad it was getting coverage and it reinforced my belief in alternative energy. But I don't see how it ties into the discussion we were having. Let's try a hypothetical. Say, we're having a discussion about a topic close to your heart - about, oh, I don't know - the terrible casualty rates among American Neo-nazis accidentally shooting themselves - you naturally, would think this was a disaster we should all be worried about whereas I wouldn't be too fussed. Now suppose you were winning the argument and I suddenly threw in something like: "Well you obviously don't care about the shot Nazis - there are 200,000 people killed in traffic accidents in India! What are you doing about that!" Can you see what I'm getting at? You'd be a bit nonplussed, wouldn't you? There are terrible things happening everywhere. We can't discuss them all at simultaneously. So if you really want me to follow your argument, you'll have to explain it more clearly.

Yoicks - Wrecker - not happy to see you getting involved. You're smarter than the rest of the conservatives on this site put together. That's a clever, if biased, explanation you gave, but it still doesn't answer my question. Pro keeps denigrating us, saying we're committed to a "side". whereas he's committed to a "cause". What's the diff? I'd have thought we were both just coming at the issue from our respective angles. Re your comment about facts - again, I don't get it. I asked Pro for facts (example, the number of kids killed in the Iraq invasion) and all he says is he couldn't care less. I looked at that supposed survey of Muslim women and could find no facts in it at all, just unsubstantiated generalisations.

Hi Earl - it's a tricky business, trying to have a rational conversation with Pro. You think you see what he's getting at, then he throws in soot. His latest thing seems to be that - what is it? he's arguing for "a cause" and we're arguing for "a side". What's the diff?

If by "takeaway", you mean did I learn anything new, sorry, that was about it. For most normal human beings, the takeaway would have been your callous comment about the number of casualties ("I don't know and I don't care") - but given that you've already demonstrated a similar viciousness on the other thread (what did you say there? - something about not caring about dead Palestinian kids because you know what they'll grow up to become") I wasn't surprised.

Are you also against age pensions and universal health care?

Ah, you've got me there, Pro. I surrender. Can't argue with facts. The proof is there for all to see - Rafiki's aced it: three quarters of Muslim women in Paris wear "masks" out of fear. But wait! - how reliable is this survey? When was it carried out? 2012 or 1789? The article doesn't say. By who? Benjamin Netanyahu? What methodology did it use? How many subjects did it survey? 5 or 5 million? How did it allow for survey response effect? And it says the 3/4 were motivated by fear, including fear of violence - what does "including" mean? - could be .0001%, could be 99%. Then I asked myself - who would write an article based on such vacuous information? So I looked up the author on Wikipedia (yeah yeah, I know, playing the man, not the ball - but in this case, I'll make an exception, since he's such an exceptional man). Ezra Levant is a Canadian right-wing fanatic who make Andrew Bolt look like Stalin. He's so far to the right, he's against such things as universal health care, public pensions and the minimum wage. Anyway, since you're such a big "facts" man, maybe you can answer the question Ethan is obviously unwilling or unable to. How many children died as a result of our (meaning US, Britain and us) invasion of Iraq?

Im not surprised you've seen em at the Gold Coast - there's a strong subculture of surfing among the burqa set. Just joking, but i swear this is true - i met a Saudi woman last year (not in burqa but was wearing niqab) who told me her hobby was skydiving. I lack culture? My wife agrees with you (although she thinks it's because im always wasting my time at the footy rather than going to concerts)

A beautiful post. Time stood still. Watching those highlights makes me regret more than ever how much we've allowed the game to become so cluttered.

Im curious. What do you mean by not often? When was the last time you saw one? (I presume you'd remember, since you seem so afraid of them )

Congrats Pro - you must be thrilled. And I see your point - the burqa is a huge problem in Australian universities - so huge that I haven't seen one in twenty years of working in them. You still haven't answered my earlier question. When was the last time you actually saw a burqa? (I'm not denying they're out there - I probably just live in the wrong part of town).

Thanks Faulty - only time for a quick reply. Might answer at length tomorrow. 1. Not sure why you're criticising the Medical Association. I simply asked Ethan (Mister Statistics) a fairly simple question. I just quoted the Physicians as an example. He can quote the Hare Krishnas for all I care - any reputable organisation will do - I simply wanted him to tell me how many kids were killed as a result of the invasion of Iraq. Pretty straightforward request, I'd have thought. 2. You keep saying Islam is "at odds with Aussie culture". It's "beyond debate, mate." Remove or reform. What is your plan for doing that? How do you propose to remove the ones born here? How do you "reform" a religion? What do you do with those who don't want to be reformed? Who decides whether somebody's reformed - George Pell? More detail, thanks. 3, You still haven't answered my questions about your strange post - the one about mystical fathers and evil blood. This makes no sense. In fact, it sounds like Catholic theology, something I've no truck with at all. Is it something you picked up in the Philippines?

What are you talking about? What are these mystical sins? Who is this "Father"? I presume I'm one of the "lefties" you're referring to, but I don't understand what you're saying. How can blood be evil? What is "human" culture, as opposed to "individual" culture? Is there any culture that isn't human? What have you been smoking? Of course everybody realises there's conflict between Muslim fundamentalists and the rest of the world (btw, it's not just Western countries of course - see China). I'm more than happy for terrorists to be dealt with with the full force of the law. My main concern, however, is to maintain good relationships with the overwhelming majority of Muslims in our country who want nothing more than to get on with their lives in peace. You don't get that by dragging up every negative thing you can find about jihadis on the Net and posting it on a football website.

A fine example of the - what was it? "mature conversation" Pro promised us at the start of this thread. Ethan, I'm still waiting for a reply - how many children were killed in as a result of the illegal invasion of Iraq? I'm not asking for much - a simple figure from any independent body will do (I notice in this morning's Age the Medical Association for the Prevention of War estimated that around a million died all up) Or do your statistics only go one way?

Ok , I admit it, you've got me there - I'm not that smart (although, to be fair, I can, at least, spell "you're") Personally, not that anybody cares, I'm an agnostic. I take my creed from that great American moral philosopher, Iris Dement (youtube Let The Mystery Be) People can hold whatever religious beliefs they want. No skin off my nose. But if you look back at my post, I was referring to people who tell other people they are going to hell. If you tell me I'm going to hell, be you Muslim or Christian, then you are, in my humble opinion, a [censored]. Of the first order. I'll defend to the death (hopefully not mine) your right to say it, but I'll also defend my own right to think you're a [censored]. By the way, Emblem, who are you? I haven't noticed you before. Have you been here in another guise?