Macca

This, just 2 posts back ... you didn't notice? Of course you didn't ... again, probably proving that you read in a selective way. Unlike you, I don't just talk about the problem ... one day, you might bother to stick your neck out and offer up some ideas. The post below was in response to rpfc's idea of lifting the draft age. Hope it's not too much for you ...

I agree and here's how I see things working if the draft age was lifted by 2 years ... just some random ideas ... Either an Australia wide under 20 competition being formed or just leaving the TAC as it is but lifting it to under 20's ... the national under age championships could be expanded though ... other interstate comps could stay as they are. I'd favour a nationwide under 20 competition though. The top 80-100 juniors to be paid a decent "youth allowance" (from a certain age) to offset those juniors being swept away by other sports. It should be remembered that the Sheffield shield in Australian cricket is heavily subsidised by CA - it must cost CA an absolute fortune to run that competition but it's vital money, well spent. The AFL is cash rich so it's a no-brainer in many ways. A certain amount of the under 20 players could be aligned with an AFL club - along the lines of an academy and/or zone ... these players could be "listed" by the clubs that they are aligned with at draft time ... they would still however all play predominately in the feeder comp until drafted. These players could simply be listed by the clubs at draft time instead of using an actual draft number to attain them (up to a maximum of 3-4 players) The actual draft could be reserved for those players who aren't aligned with an AFL club. These same pre-listed players could spend some time at their AFL aligned club before draft time. Perhaps a number of these players could play a certain amount of games with a clubs reserves team or such-like. We could also lift the draft age by 2 years in an incremental way ... say, 3-6 months at a time. Again, this could be done to offset the threat from other sports. There would obviously need to be other things done if the draft age was lifted by 2 years but the above covers the bare necessities. Whether the AFL actually acts or not is another question - there may be other ways of fixing things or perhaps we could just accept the way the draft is right now (flaws and all) Again, the above is not a template, just some random thoughts. Time for a cup of tea

A fine player who always gives his all - well done on your 200th Nathan.

You fly off the handle about anything and everything - constantly. That says to me that you lack experience ... I've given you some curry today because you continue to utter malicious lies about my drafting opinions. You chose that path, I'm just reacting. Now, you either lack the intelligence to figure out what I'm saying or you're just looking for an argument because of your misplaced anger. Which one is it? I don't even drink ... teetotal here. I've read your unfortunate thoughts on Toumpas so I can see your bias ... perhaps it's you that has the drinking problem. Casting aspersions is poor form - you've let yourself down badly. .

At least I have an understanding of how the drafting system works ... you lack experience and that's why your view is such a black and white one. You will continue to be distressed, angry, disillusioned, confused and bewildered by our draft choices whilst many others will come to terms with things quite quickly. My argument re drafting isn't shared by many here but that's ok - I don't expect to change anyone's mind. That's not my motive - my motive is to make people think ... I've done this sort of thing before - numerous times. Going along with the crowd is not my thing. We'll just see what happens in the long run.

I'm done arguing with you, it's a complete waste of my time. Wallow in your own misery for all I care. Oh, and make sure you go on to the Nathan Jones - 200th game thread and wish him your best. You know, strip him of the captaincy, trade him out and all that ... off you go mate, we're all waiting. I meant it in the sense that we ultimately picked him at no.4. "Decisions" are made with drafting - the hindsight heroes will scream 'mistake' if things don't work out but they rarely, if ever, say anything at the time. It goes something like this ...

Well, the cycle has probably already started to swing so my comments shouldn't be regarded as doom & gloom anyway. Watts is getting better Trengove might get back better than ever (fingers crossed) Hogan is well on his way Brayshaw can only keep improving Tyson can play and he was an original pick 3 Petracca may well be very good ... and it's not quite over for Toumpas anyway. I'm merely trying to point out that it's not a perfect system ... and once people come to terms with that, they may be less inclined to lash out at said player. I'm happy to go into bat for Toumpas on principle. Look at the treatment that Cale Morton received here ... in the following article Cale himself says that he was taken too early in the 2007 draft ... quite an admission but of course he had no say in what draft pick he was going to be picked at. At the time, he was just a kid with wild eyed expectations. We as a club attached a number to him and the rest is history. He may not be as good as his draft pick number might indicate though - that's where the draft can be flawed. We all know he was a gun junior - that bit can't be questioned. And you refuse to look at drafting from a bigger picture point of view ... one day you might take the time to look at the results from all the clubs points of view (busts and surprise champs included) so you and others might see things in a different light. Maybe. As I said previously, you get far too angry and upset about such occurrences. Don't worry, I get just as disappointed but I'm able to come to terms with it all because I don't share the same belief system as what you do. Again, it's not an opposite view, it's a scaled down view.

The information we have about a star junior footy player can be taken any way we want. There are those who are circumspect like myself and there are those who automatically buy in ... too many buy in considering the information can be dubious, all things considered. They say it's all above the shoulders but the talent still has to be there to begin with. There are so many facets to being a top AFL footy player but there's a lot of boxes that can't be ticked until that player is exposed to the big time. It's the same in any sport unless the exposed form is closer to the step up that that sportsperson is taking. Shield cricket to test cricket is way closer than TAC form to AFL level IMO. Others may disagree. And I agree on those who end up being stars after showing just average form at junior level ... how that can be identified is anyone's guess. Those unanswered questions will almost certainly remain unanswered ... unless the draft age is lifted and the feeder comp is ramped up - not sure that will happen in the immediate future though. Until such an occurrence happens, the draft is what it is. .

I'll say it again, the draft is an imperfect system and all the facts and data back that appraisal up. How you can honestly say the system is perfect is beyond belief. I see your view as totally weird and without logic. Do you really believe that all the recruiters are basically incompetent - they all miss out on the gun players and they all pick busts. Just remember that you're the one who keeps quoting me every time I express my views about drafting ... I usually only post my views on drafting without quoting anyone. Until recently. If one allows oneself to start having doubts about the drafting system for a decent length of time, then those doubts won't go away easily. It sounds like you've only ever thought one way without ever entertaining the thought that what you've been told is actually incorrect. Toumpas is just another example of how the draft is flawed - a gun junior who is struggling to make it in the big time. For what it's worth, I'd like him to make it ... I get the strong impression that you want him to fail. You only ever talk about him in a disparaging way - and don't forget, you were very pleased when we drafted him. Those words are yours - to keep. Strangely enough, I made no such big statement. about Toumpas. My view is to generally just let things play out with teenage draftees.

Actually, you did. I could re-quote you again with those ill-mannered and ill-conceived comments that you made a few months back ... but.let's face it, you've already embarrassed yourself enough. You've got some real anger issues and you're a complete novice when it comes to many football matters ... you've been an onlooker all your life and wouldn't know what it's like to be involved at a club. You're one those types that is forever complaining and you never offer any sort of solutions. Moaning about the past is your speciality - you even want to ditch the captain (Jones) and trade him out. Go away and bother someone else with your utter nonsense. We get it, you HATE Toumpas - congratulations. Does that stupid hate of yours somehow make you feel better? Grow up.

I'd argue that many of the top end draft picks (who were top rated juniors and not necessarily from our club) were just not going to make it even if they were developed properly. Of course it's not all luck but it's not all about development either. To me, it's always been about the age of the draftees. Many young players "self-develop" in different ways. Some peak early, others peak quite late. It's not one size fits all. Morton peaked early (probably at under 18 level) ... Watts is getting better. It's an extremely complex discussion point with no clear answers. I can accept the vagaries and grey areas quite willingly. I'm no perfectionist and maybe that's where the problem lies - those who can't deal with imperfection are doomed to complain forever more. I'd agree that our development levels at our club has previously been poor but McLean was never quick and Sylvia was Sylvia. Trengove busted his foot and Scully took off (and he is certainly not an A grader) Toumpas can't reproduce his SANFL form but the SANFL isn't the AFL. .

So it's ok for you to scream at me previously with your use of caps and abbreviated swearing ... and cast aspersions my way with your blatant lies. You started the ball rolling Wyl so stiff cheddar if you get a bit back. If you want to dish it out, learn how to cop it. The drafting system is flawed and there is some luck involved - there has to be in an imperfect system such as drafting. It's not all luck and I've never said it was all luck. Again, you have comprehension issues. I'd compare drafting teenagers more to the "favourites" in horse racing ... the large majority of favourites don't win and many don't even run a place. Any punter is armed with that information and should accept the consequences accordingly. Of course, many of us have known punters who like to moan and groan - those here who complain about top end draft picks that don't work out remind me of those "mug" punters. Complaining about it will get you absolutely nowhere - the outcomes are the outcomes. Maybe a career awaits you in recruiting - you should give it a try as you seem to know all the answers. Me, I can't explain why a number of top juniors can't cut it - the reality is, no one can. .

No I haven't - you're talking absolute rubbish. Go back and read all my posts on drafting carefully. What you see is someone who has a "different" view and as usual, you've jumped to the wrong conclusions. Diifferent doesn't = an opposite view ... so, stop painting me that way. I don't have an opposite view to those who have a strong belief system in the draft - it's a scaled down version. I would urge the club to continue to pick top rated juniors with our top end draft picks - including this season if needs be. However, we might end up picking another top rated junior that doesn't cut it - that's the chance you take. We could also trade those top end draft picks - that's entirely up to the club. Of course it's not all about luck - there are many truths to drafting ... for instance, the top 10 picks will generally be better than the next 10 and so on and so forth. But there are far too many busts to call it a perfect system (as you do) And too many top players aren't chosen in the top 10. Every draft has similar outcomes. One day you will see things clearly but only when you decide to stop venting in an indiscriminate way. Lose the anger on this issue Wyl and come to terms with an imperfect system. .

I never said it was all luck - get your facts straight I'm surprised you're not screaming at me with your abbreviated swearing and use of capital letters with your insane anger - you wouldn't last 5 minutes at a local sporting club. I have a scaled down version of your idiotic view on drafting. That's all. You are clueless and you don't know what your talking about - most of all you lack experience ... that much is quite obvious. But go ahead and blame the club, the recruiters, the player himself and prattle on about who else we should have picked with your twisted, stupid logic. By the way, you were extremely happy when we picked Toumpas - explain that.

Because they are luckier than us - it's that simple. If X amount of top juniors are not going to make it, it's entirely possible to continue to pick these types. It's a bit like tossing a coin, heads could come up 8 times out of 10. What is an absolute fact is that many top juniors fail to make it to genuine A grade status - the strike rate is astonishingly low but most haven't come to terms with how it all works. How big a sample size do people need? In terms of actual output ... just an opinion of course ... 3 - Sylvia ... C 5 - McLean ... C+ 4 - Morton ... E 1 - Watts ... B- 1 - Scully ... C 2 - Trengove ... E 4 - Toumpas ... D 3* - Hogan ... B- with a bullet 2 - Petracca ... ? 3 - Brayshaw ... C 3 - Tyson ... B- Every single one of the above players was a top rated junior - with no exceptions. We could nearly include Viney as well and if we did, he'd only get a B- as well (so far) Keep in mind that a number of the above can obviously improve and 1 or 2 may indeed achieve A grade status ... but it's still a sorry tale, all the same ... however, it's a tale that can be easily explained if one doesn't have a strong belief system when it comes to drafting. I've never bought in like many do If one is to take a "macro" view, a similar tale ends up being told. I'm just left wondering why so many people here need to be continually disappointed before they finally realise it's a system problem rather than blaming seemingly incompetent recruiters. All the psyche, aptitude, beep tests and draft camp analysis won't change a thing either. Many top juniors just can't cut it. Your opinion of Toumpas may be correct but in my opinion, you're apportioning the blame in the wrong area.

I'd agree it does take longer for some players these days given the nature of how the sport is played as compared to a dozen years ago. As a sort of a comparison, Sylvia may well have had a much better career if he'd played his footy in the 70's, 80's or 90's. Positional one-on-one footy suited him to a tee. The faults he had might have been glossed over if he could have consistently beaten his man on matchdays. Back to Jimmy ... it's looking quite clear that he isn't going to be a gun footballer and A grade seems a pipe dream really ... however, what if he could attain the ability of a C+ to B grade player by the end of 2017? Would we take that? Say, along the lines of Dunn or Jetta (last year) ... it doesn't have to be A grade or bust. Nor should it ever be regardless of how a player is attained. I tend to agree but maybe a 1 year deal is also an option. The club may decide to trade him if the right offer came along though. There's plenty that I'd rule a line through before Jimmy though. There's at least a possible upside that wouldn't cost the club a lot in salary cap space. Many others have well and truly max'd out.

It could be argued that it's harder to excel at SANFL level (playing against men) than it is playing against other juniors in an under age comp. Hogan had quite a good year at VFL level but could have quite easily gone absolute gangbusters if he'd played another year at TAC level.

The draft is an ass. These kids are too young when they're drafted and that's the reason why things will often not work out ... nothing is going to change unless they change the system. Getting "better" recruiters won't make an ounce of difference either when we're talking about top end draft picks. The number of top juniors (who are usually picked in the top 5 or top 10) who don't make the grade backs up my point. I'd say at least half of these "top" juniors don't get to play 100 games and most (80-90%) never attain true A grade status. Yet there's an assumption here and elsewhere that a top end draft pick should be an automatic A grader. Either all the recruiters are basically incompetent or the system is a bad one. Take your pick but logic and common sense should find one leaning heavily towards the latter explanation. We pluck these teenage kids out of high school and continue to place totally unrealistic expectations on them. Many base their opinion on the number attached to these kids and that number is often altogether inaccurate. It's grossly unfair. .

I reckon Toumpas is almost certainly trying his absolute best. Right now, he's just not that good a player. He may get better with maturity but who knows? Many will continue to judge him according to his draft pick number but I'm left wondering why so many still have so much faith in drafting high school age kids.

In my opinion the clubs greatest asset is it's members and supporters. So why would those in charge want to poke the bear?- however flippantly they might have done it.For what its worth I do cut those in charge some slack - constantly. I'll always allow people to make some unforced errors. I'm more thinking of those members and supporters who might end up being disaffected by the unfortunate comments. As always, it's about the bigger picture. .

Perhaps Jackson and Roos shouldn't have made any references to the members and supporters at all. If that happens, this conversation doesn't exist. Anyway, it's out there now and no good will come of it. Lets hope it blows over but the team will still need to be at their best in the next 2 games regardless. .

Regardless of skill level, there's no excuse for fully paid professional sportspeople not bringing effort, energy, application and their best attitude to matchdays.

I agree - and we all seem to have been lumped together on the back of a few emails from a few disgruntled supporters. All up, there's probably at least a hundred thousand Melbourne supporters (Australia wide) so the emails he receives doesn't seem to be much of a sample size anyway. Again, it's just silly stuff that a senior coach shouldn't be bothered with. Whether it's true or not is irrelevant too - he quite simply should not be talking about such matters. His job is to coach the football side - not to be reading and/or answering emails from supporters. Many of our players still have many fundamental issues that need working on ... that's where his focus should lie (amongst other areas where he should be focused) .

Why is Roos even reading supporter emails? ... I would have thought coaching this team was time consuming enough. I want him coaching the team, not wasting his own time reading and/or responding to emails. He should be above that sort of thing. And why is he prattling on about the habits of supporter groups ... the Richmond stuff was just cringeworthy. He's obviously frustrated as are many of us but to lose focus like this is concerning. To be honest, I'd rather not hear from him at all ... I've always judged the coach on how the team actually plays on matchdays. We're better than we were but we were coming from a ridiculously low base. We're still quite mediocre in the whole scheme of things and we've got a long way to go before we can safely say we're on firm ground. The real issue is we still have far too many C & D graders on our list. That's been said every year for the past number of years which makes it doubly important that we draft and trade well ... and, we need to start embracing free agency - big time.

Roos' comments about the supporters are possibly the silliest and most ill-informed comments I've ever heard from a senior coach. He's running out of things to blame and is really struggling now. It's a comment that you might expect from a ferel opposition supporter or from someone of primary school age. Maybe he's been having a few chats with Dr Who. .