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What's in it for City of Melbourne??

I think this is a great idea. There are a number of precedents forit too. It is not new for Melbourne to be promoted at sporting events: think Grand Prix, Tennis Open, Melbournr Cup. Admittedly these are mostly international events held in Melbourne and therefore build the Melbourne brand internationally. But there is also a domestic brand building exercise especially targetted at migrants and interstate particularly positioning our city against Sydney.

Melbourne does havesubstantial dollars behind it as a brand, and I think an agreement with the demons would make sense for it. Afterall, it certainly seems to work Tasmania and the Hawks

Gawn at FF for our best team. Really?

You need to look at the criteria ie those who will make th difference in final series of the future, not now. I was thinking of how we can make up a tteam which will not be able to be matched up on, especially in finals - in the future from our current players. I think Gawn is potentially someone who is like that, a visionary pick IMO

looks like Sylvia for Scully for mine

the only other question is Newton for Spencer

Spencer certainly got great raps from

Casey last week

I touched on the importance of a club’s top 6 in another thread and thought that it would be a worthwhile exercise to evaluate the whole competition’s top 6.

For those that didn’t read the post in another thread let me expand. A few years ago Craig Cameron effectively denounced the widely held belief that “a team is only as good as the bottom 6 of its best 22”. He argued and conclusively proved to me that a team is only as good as it ‘best 6’. He pointed out that if one analyzed the end of year ladders over recent seasons there was a strong correlation between the ‘H&A’ ladder at round 22 and the quality of a club’s top 6 players. In most cases the ladder at year’s end mirrors the quality of the team’s top 6 players. Naturally, it won’t be absolute due to vagaries such as injury, but the pattern is undeniable. And it’s not to say that the bottom 6 isn’t important to a team’s flag chances, as we know that all great sides have good depth, but it’s the stars that determine how well a team can be built and how deep it will go into September. Carlton is a prime example that ‘no depth = average team’, plus I reckon their top 6 is currently overrated, despite Judd at the helm, as their young are still a couple of years away.

I’ve long held the belief that stars win flags and that our dearth of genuine top shelf stars has precluded us from ultimate glory even when we were regular finals contenders. Whilst our very best players since the AFL officially came into being in 1990 delivered sustained periods of success and many Finals appearances they fell short of being the games elite. More importantly, we haven’t had the champion midfielders that are almost always required to ensure a premiership. This gets back to the quality required in a team’s ‘top 6’.

It’s no coincidence that Connolly and Prenderghast have both earmarked in a recent article that it is players that have the ability to become “stars” that we would be targeting in the upcoming draft. It’s our lack of quality in our ‘top 6’ that more than anything else sees us languishing at the bottom of the ladder.

I’ve listed the players I believe to be the top 6 of all clubs below. It’s always a little subjective, but it won’t be far off. The players aren’t named in any particular order and I’ve included a couple of line-ball players of each team in brackets.

Would Geelong’s second ‘best 6’ be stronger than our ‘top 6’ ?

The clubs are in alphabetical order:

Adelaide - Thompson/Edwards/Goodwin/McLeod/Rutten/Bock (Vince/Porplyzia)

Brisbane - Brown/Black/Power/Adcock/Bradshaw/Drummond (Clark/Brennan)

Carlton - Judd/Fevola/Waite/Murphy/Gibbs/Simpson (Stevens/Thornton)

Coll - Swan/Didak/Davis/Pendlebury/Fraser/Lockyer (Cloke/Presti)

Essendon - Watson/McVeigh/Stanton/Lovett/Lloyd/Fletcher (Ryder/Winderlich)

Fremantle - Pavlich/Sandi/Duffield/Hasleby/Mundy/Schammer (McPharlin/Palmer)

Geelong - Ablett/Chapman/Bartel/Selwood/Johnson/Scarlett (Corey/Ottens/Ling)

Hawthorn - Hodge/Franklin/Roughead/Sewell/Mitchell/Rioli (Lewis/Bateman)

Melbourne - Green/Davey/Sylvia/Bruce/McLean/Moloney

North - Harvey/McIntosh/Simpson/Wells/Rawlings/Petrie (Swallow/Firrito)

Port - Cornes/Cornes/Burgoyne/Cassisi/Boak/Tredrea (Chaplin/Salopek)

Richmond - Richardson/Bowden/Deledio/Foley/Tuck/Tambling (Cousins/Jackson)

St. Kilda - Riewoldt/Hayes/Goddard/Dal Santo/Montagna/Koschitzke (Ball/Gilbert)

Sydney - Goodes/Kirk/O’Keefe/J. Bolton/McVeigh/Jolly (C. Bolton/Shaw)

W/Coast - Cox/Kerr/Priddis/Embley/Lynch/Selwood (Wirrpanda/Stenglein)

Bulldogs - Cooney/Cross/Lake/Murphy/Boyd/Higgins (Johnson/Giansiracusa)

Some of those 'top 6' are ageing, some in their prime, some still on the j-curve, and some all three.

As at the end of round 14 the AFL ladder is as follows:

Saints

Cats

Dogs

Pies

Crows

Lions

Blues

Bombers

--------

Power

Swans

Hawks

Eagles

Roos

Tigers

Dockers

Dees

Other than Hawthorn, would there be much change to a ladder of ‘top 6’ quality ? Hawthorn are the odd ones out due to the vagaries of injury, a late preseason, players having operations too late last year, being the hunted, etc, but overall Cameron was right. If you asses the quality of all club’s ‘top 6’ players you’ll find that it won’t be far off mirroring the league ladder.

It’s another reason why a PP is a must at year’s end. Scully just isn’t enough. We need quality and then some. With Grimes, Watts, Morton, Garland, etc, the talent is coming through, but it can’t come quickly enough. And much more is needed.

This is my order of the teams ‘top 6’ ladder:

Cats/Saints

Hawks

Pies/Dogs

Lions/Crows/Port

Swans/Blues/Bombers

The rest

How far off the current ladder ?

So when supporters try and predict our rise up the ladder keep in mind how far behind we’re coming from. For example, when our ‘top 6’ is finally ‘Watts, Scully, Grimes, Garland, Morton, and Blease’ then we’ll be well on our way to sustained success. It’s some time away, as most realize. And yes, there are 40 players on a list and it’s not just about your best players but building a great team through quality depth. The point remains though; it’s stars that win flags. Just look at the ladder.

NB: Melbourne was just about the hardest ‘top 6’ to assess. I can understand why supporters that aren’t overly enamoured with Moloney, Bruce, or McLean would say “they’re not in our top 6”, but their present value to the team suggests otherwise. But before supporters lose the point and start saying “what about Rivers, or player X”, just remember we’re crud for a reason and have little top end quality at all. So by all means insert the player you feel should be in our top 6 as it won’t change our position one iota on the ladder of ‘top 6 best’.

Interesting post.

I'd distinguish between our top six as of this year, and project to say two years time. Then look at the next six.

I'd also define top six as bot only skilled players, but those who will make the difference to losing and winning a grand final. In other word those players who have something special which oher team would find extremely difficult to handle come grand final day

As of today based on current form and proven capabilities, I believe our top six would be:

JamesMac, Sylvia, Jamar, Jurrah, Grimes, Davey

Next six currently:

Frawley, Petterd, Green, Bruce, Morton, Maloney

But in two years time it will be very different. I predict it will be (based on those who will make the difference on flag day in 2014)

Top six: Watts, Trengove, Davey, Jurrah, Scully, Gawn

Next six: Jamar, Grimes, Sylvia, Morton, Petterd, Frawley

Thoughts?

My suggestions:

IN: Rivers, Sylvia

OUT: Bartram, Jones (this is getting much harder..)

B: James Frawley,Matthew Warnock, Jarrod Rivers

HB: James McDonald, Joel Macdonald, Cameron Bruce

C: Rohan Bail, Jack Trengove, Aaron Davey

HF: Brad Green, Matthew Bate, Lynden Dunn

F: Tom Scully, Ricky Petterd, Jamie Bennell

Foll: Mark Jamar, Jack Grimes, Brent Moloney

I/C: Colin Garland, Jordie McKenzie, Colin Sylvia, Michael Newton

I think we should move closer to our best side as the players become available. Personally I think both Sylvia and Rivers are in our best side.

Those who are not in the longer term side are IMO Bennel, Dunn, Newton, Jones and Bartram. It will depend on match ups, but on current form this would be my side but both ommissions are a trifle unlucky. But gee it is getting tougher, and as we keep winning and others come back it will only get harder.

My best side ie the one we will put on the park in the first final in September if everyone is up and running

B: Macdonald Warnock Rivers

HB: McDonald Frawley Bruce

C: Bail Trengove Davey

HF: Jurrah Watts Wonna

F: Morton Gawn Petterd

Fol:Jamar Grimes Scully

I/C:Garland Sylvia Moloney Green

Reserves: Jones McKenzie Martin Bennel

I believe by next year the AFL will allow 3-4 reserves on the bench to replace injured players to ensure there is nearly always 22 available for interchange (which of course will morf into team tactics). Gawn is going to be another Paul Salmon, but maybe not this year. If he is fit though and has played successfully a few games, i'd still play him in September for the intimidation factor alone. The other one i would consider is McKenzie for Bail, but because Bail is a bit older with a more mature body, a bit bigger, and a better kick, I'd go for Bail. Others who may put their hands up later in the year are Gysberts, Bleeze, MacNamara and Tapscott (if fit). I don't believe Fitzpatrick will be ready for a couple of years.

Thoughts?

MELBOURNE*

Daniel Bell (shoulder) - 3 weeks

Max Gawn (knee) - indefinite

Neville Jetta (groin) - 1-2 weeks

Liam Jurrah (shoulder) - 12 weeks

John Meesen (ankle) - indefinite

Cale Morton (knee) - 5 weeks

Jared Rivers (knee) - test

Colin Sylvia (jaw) - test

Luke Tapscott (hip) - indefinite

Austin Wonaeamirri (hamstring) - 2 weeks

Ah i forgot about the star woops....* Please note that Melbourne's list is from last week. It will be updated when available.

elsewhere on 'land, it has been mentioned Gawn has been training at Junction Oval, especially goal kicking and doing drills. if this is so, why is he on the indefinite injury list. Personally, I believe Gawn is one of the most important recruits we have made in the last ten years. One of the reasons Fremantle is on the rise is the presence and dominance of their giant mobile ruckman. Gawn is even more mobile and more skilled, and apparently is a great kick and mark. He could be another Paul Salmon. He and mark jamar and jack watts is a couple of years time cour dominate the competition like the bombers of old. if anything that combination is even more powerful than anything they had.

It would be nice to Max Gawn on the park and firing very soon. Anyone have an update on his current condition and when we are likely to see him?

Ditto ditto..

Was just thinking yesterday, The tiges will probably treat this as their 'grand final' game - as we have the queens b'day game for the last few years - and its a match that I'm suddenly not comfortable with..

Esp after their players suspensions, as a club i fear they'll come out all guns blazing and i worry it might catch us napping.

Still, we should win.

I'm very confident we will have a comfortable win. 60 points plus IMO.

You think. Sure the Tiges will come out firing but they lack skill and confidence and if we keep our cool we will not only wear them down but eventually thoroughly outplayed them. Our current side just has too much class and is playing with great confidence. I'm sure the coaches are well aware of complacency as theyhave already talked about publicly. If you remember there were many on here who had the same concerns about let down after the Pies game. Therewas nosign of it last week. Our skills were a bit down in the first half but not the intensity. Eventually our class told. We will be ok, and should have a good win. The tigers are on their uppers and will remain there for some time. IMO their young brigade are nothing like as good as ours and their older brigade do not have the class and current form as the likes of Jmac, Green, Bruce, jamar, petterd, grimes, Frawley.

Demons by 65.

why are people calling for strauss to be dropped? I thought he showed signs of improvement against the pies, plus he's all ready a year behind in his development (like so many of our players). He's played two weeks of senior footy, no including the pre-season - surely he doesn't need a rest yet?

I don't think it is a matter of being dropped as such. It is a question of which 22 is most likely to win us games on any particular day. IMO I do not think Strauss is yet in the class of either Garland or Rivers - both experienced players and better able to match it with more high performing teams. If I had a criticism of Strauss it is that I do not think he yet has the physical strength to play a pivotal role in defence. I also think he tends to be a bit loose in defence. I think he is very skilled, but not yet mature enough to be in our best 22 who this year are after winning games - every week.

During the year, no doubt we will have to rest Scully and Trengove who I have noticed already are sometimes out muscled by opposition. This does not apply so much to Bail or MacKenzie who are that much older and have bigger bodies. Indeed, MacKenzie's tackle count for the first two games has been outstanding, which alone might make a case out for his longer term retention in the side.

Gee it is getting really hard to pick the side. Everyone will need to be on their game to stay in, as discussed in today's Australian

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/sport/demons-chasing-a-rare-double/story-e6frg7mf-1225851124688

Here's my go for this week:

In: Sylvia, Rivers, Garland

Out: Strauss, Bartrum Jones

Proposed Side

B: Bruce Warnock Rivers

HB: McKenzie Frawley Joel Mac

C: Davey Maloney Trengove

HF: Bennell Bate Sylvia

F: Green Newton Petterd

Foll: Jamar Junior MacD Scully

Inter: Garland Bail Grimes Dunn

Who is going to go for Watts, Jurrah, Wonna, Morton? At this stage, with all those available as described in the Oz article. I'd go for:

B: Bruce Warnock Rivers

HB: Morton Frawley Joel Mac

C: Davey Maloney Trengove

HF: Wonna Watts Sylvia

F: Jurrah Green Petterd

Foll: Jamar Junior MacD Scully

Inter: Garland Bail Grimes Dunn

In: Wonna, Watts, Jurrah, Morton

Out: Newton Bennell Bate MacKenzie

Terrific forward set up, so many avenues to goal. Very talented on-ball brigade, especially if the Russian keeps up his form.

One issue in this side is the second ruckman. With Newton not there (he did a reasonable job at the weekend standing in for the Russian), i guess it falls on big Jack. This is a potential weakness if we get double teamed by for instance Geelong or the Saints. (In the longer term i'd like to see Gawn in there as his skills develop and his body matures). Another possibility is Bate for Dunn but agin depends on form. On last saturday's form you would have to go for Dunn IMO.

I still think though this is our strongest team, but Bennell, Bate and MacKenzie are extremely unlucky to miss out, as well as up and comers Bleeze, Tapscott, Gawn, Fitzpatrick, Gysberts, Jetta, Cheney, and of course Johnson. Not doubt it will come down to form, and the competition for places will be intense, but what a great problem to have. Also we are never without injuries so these players will get their chances.

It will be a terrific team when up and running. Certainly worthy of a finals birth either this year or next.

As I keep saying, premiers in 2014!!!

He wouldn't be on GCs radar and by the time he might be they will have their full quota of forwards.

GC can have anyone (willing) they want. No disrespect to Petterd but he would be well down that list. The fact that he comes from Gold Coast (if that's even correct)is a seperate issue all together. GC have to recruit best available and the players town of birth has absolutely nothing to do with that at all!

Petterd is not the Melbourne player they want - Miller is, also a Queenslander. That is why he is on a one year contract. We are obliged to give them one senior player next year and Miller will be it.

It is also interesting to contemplate how that will affect selection policy re Miller for the rest of the season. If we don't play him at all they m may not consider him valuable enough to poach, and therefore they may go after Petterd. On the other hand, will he (Miller)get in our best 22 as we surge towards the finals?

I hate Newton and wish he was delisted. His performance that evening was up with the single worst performances in AFL history.

However, if he is ever going to berry his demons (for a lack of a better word) he has an opportunity this weekend. A match winning performance would be a fairytale and would go a long way to setting up his career.....

Ok maybe I am dreaming...... but the opportunity of a fairytale exists and that opportunity does not present itself every week.

Dare to dream.

having watched the replay yesterday of lastweek, Newton wasn't bad. He certainly provided a target upforward and used his leap effectively when in the ruck. The most frustrating thing about his game was his inability to take pack marks, something in the past has been one of his fewstrengths. If he can get that right and go harder at the ball, he could be very effective particularly if we continue to deliver quality ball into the forward line like we did last week. He just mightsurprise us all asthe overall team improves often individual players improve with them

ame='Hell Bent' date='07 April 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1270638156' post='316651']

I've met him too and endorse all of this, an absolutely top bloke. Top family too. Does a lot for the African community in Melbourne too, usually behind the scenes, never to blow his own trumpet. It's a great story about him going back to DRC (Congo) to find out about his father's family. Makes me sick to think a guy like him is copping racist carp from anyone, but if there's even the slightest chance that he's getting it from supporters of the team he plays for ... words fail me.

last year Barrie Cassidy from ABC's Outsiders program 10.30 Sunday mornings (incidently the best sports show on television), and a famous Magpie fanatic, said that he hears regularly racial abuse from members when O'Brien gets the ball. He said when he and others challenge them about it, they aparently say "I've paid my membership and I'm allowed to do and say what I like". Just appalling but not new for that lot - remember nicky winmar and michael long? The AFL stamped it out on the field, maybe they need to look to the members' stands?

ame='Hell Bent' date='07 April 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1270638156' post='316651']

I've met him too and endorse all of this, an absolutely top bloke. Top family too. Does a lot for the African community in Melbourne too, usually behind the scenes, never to blow his own trumpet. It's a great story about him going back to DRC (Congo) to find out about his father's family. Makes me sick to think a guy like him is copping racist carp from anyone, but if there's even the slightest chance that he's getting it from supporters of the team he plays for ... words fail me.

last year Barrie Cassidy from ABC's Outsiders program 10.30 Sunday mornings (incidently the best sports show on television), and a famous Magpie fanatic, said that he hears regularly racial abuse from members when O'Brien gets the ball. He said when he and others challenge them about it, they aparently say "I've paid my membership and I'm allowed to do and say what I like". Just appalling but not new for that lot - remember ricky widmar and michael long? The AFL stamped it out on the field, maybe they need to look to the members' stands?

ame='Hell Bent' date='07 April 2010 - 10:02 PM' timestamp='1270638156' post='316651']

I've met him too and endorse all of this, an absolutely top bloke. Top family too. Does a lot for the African community in Melbourne too, usually behind the scenes, never to blow his own trumpet. It's a great story about him going back to DRC (Congo) to find out about his father's family. Makes me sick to think a guy like him is copping racist carp from anyone, but if there's even the slightest chance that he's getting it from supporters of the team he plays for ... words fail me.

last year Barrie Cassidy from ABC's Outsiders program 10.30 Sunday mornings (incidently the best sports show on television), and a famous Magpie fanatic, said that he hears regularly racial abuse from members when O'Brien gets the ball. He said when he and others challenge them about it, they apparently say "I've paid my membership and I'm allowed to do and say what I like". Just appalling but not new for that lot - remember ricky widmar and michael long? The AFL stamped it out on the field, maybe they need to look to the members' stands?

Every great team has a few lower order picks that turn out to be stars - look at James Hird (pick 93), Dane Swan (pick 58) and Matthew Boyd (rookie). And that's just from instant memory. There's two I can think of for Melbourne - Aaron Davey and Jordie McKenzie.

And I'm surprised Bartram is actually still on our list. I don't rate him very highly and I don't think there are many that do.

And Cameron Bruce

O'brian is not only a star but one of the fairest players in the AFL.Onr of the most brilliant running back I have seen.

Pity there is a rump in the Mapie members who have a very racist attitude to him (just ask Barrie Cassidy). They apparently are unbelievably feral every time he gets the ball...

Ricky will kick 25-30 goals,

He's a quarter there already after two games, games in which he could have easily kicked a total of 10.

He will kick at least 50, maybe 73.

Green if he stays at full forward will also kick 50+. liam jurrah with half a season will kick 30.

Jack watts with 12 games will kick 15

Why close the gameday thread and start a new one?

Last week we had 175 kicks and 176 handballs at a 1:1 ratio which was a huge mistake by Bails and i'm glad he tweaked the gameplan today for 198 kicks and 154 handballs (TICK).We were so much more direct coming through the corridor and the stupid 2 foot handballs didn't cost us as much as last week.Strauss was relieved of the kicking in duties today (TICK) and as i said a first gamer shouldn't be under that pressure and giving up 3 goals.Newton in for Miller (TICK) Newton was never going to be a matchwinner in his first game but he reads the play better and is a better kick.Spencer should be dropped (TICK)no where near ready at this level.Drop underperforming players and put every player on notice and watch the intensity rise (TICK).Play Pies man on man,shoulder to shoulder and take their space away (TICK)

Everthing i wanted after Rd 1 was done,I'm happy.

the use of the corridor was outstanding- it is a long time since I have seen the demons bethat direct. And by the way, Green has to be our permanent FF. He set the game alight in the second half and was mostly responsible for our getting back into it.

Honorable mention for Dynden Dunn as well. Often highly criticised on here, after watching the replay again he was veryinfluencial in the second half.

Ricky Petterd has kicked 6 in two outings, and could have easily kicked 10. How many will he kick for the whole year.

I'm predicting 75, making him the best since Neitz in full flight when he was the Coleman Medalist.

What do we think?

If you look at the ladder and think about how all the teams that lost their first two games, tell me how many of those teams we can't beat. My guess is none of them. West Coast have shown a bit but two fourth quarter fade outs don't have me worried in the slightest. Essendon showed us that a fast placed game freo played like us on Saturday can beat them.

So without further ado to the fixture:

Richmond x2

North x2

Adelaide x2

Essendon (at MCG, home game)

West Coast (at MCG)

That's 8 wins. Maybe we lose one or two of those but win 2 or three of the other games. I don't want to get carried away with one game, but we showed something. Something very, very exciting!!

I suggest we can also beat PA at TIO, The lions at the g, Swans at the G, Crows at the G, Blues at G. That makes 13 wins, just about in the 8.

Go Dees!

and by that time the black and white faithful will be braying for Malthouse's head

I'm game.

Demons by 45 points

Watts 5 goals

Pettard 4 goals

Scully brilliant with 35 possessions

Trengove next, with 23, but most influencial

Davey, 30 possessions, 3 goals

Score:

MFC: 20.15.135

Coll: 14.6.90

Best MFC: Trengove, Scully, Watts, Green, Bruce, Pettard, Grimes, Bleeze

And by that time the blsack sand white faithful will be calling for th coaches' head

With the same attitude we can beat Adelaide next week, right now they are 7 goals down at AAMi.

At least after yesterday the boys know they can play-next week its all about whether the team is switched on upstairs.

Maloney was Great yesterday.

THE test is whether they can deliver. You watch, 90% of the pundits next week will tip us. The challenge will be to deliver in that environment. Even when we werev a top four side we struggled with that. We need to not get carried away.....

He's copped a bit of a whacking on here the past week but he played out of his shell today. Well done.

Agree. We need to nurture some of these talents. Lyndon Dunn is clearly one of those. Let's watch him develop

i've just watched the game from end to end on foxtel and i've got to tell you all - DON'T CRUCIFY JAMIE BENNELL. He is a star in the making, and he is not soft. The mark he took in the goalsquare was one of the more courageous marks i have seen at the G. Give the kid a break and he will be a star.

We are at the start of a very exciting lead up the the premiership in 2014 - enjoy it, it will be the first of many. And get used to it...