hoopla

i am led to believe that his parents were big fans of frank Spencer.

Reminds me - can anyone confirm that Jake Spencer's middle name is 'Frank'?

Paul Hayes a Barrister with CAS experience interviewed by Tracy Holmes on ABC radio couple weeks ago.

He seems to know his "stuff"!

Thankyou for this link Deefrag.Noting it went for over 13 minutes, I'm not sure why I tuned in - but I'm pleased I did although the barrister's unwillingness to mention any names did make it a somewhat frustrating interview. What the interview did tell me was that this matter could drag on for as long as the parties have the funds to keep fighting.

At the end of the day I want to see the person largely responsible for the whole sorry mess - James Hird - thrown out of the game for good. As much as I dislike - no, hate, Essendon - I accept that further sanctions against the club will damage the code. Hird's outrageous statement that the AFL Tribunal found the players " innocent" and his pathetic self-serving comment after their thrashing yesterday that the WADA announcement had affected his players - only added to my anti-Hird stance on this whole issue.

Can someone explain to me why Worksafe have not taken action on the occupational health and safety failings which underpin all this ?

I had accepted that they had deferred any action pending the tribunal's finding. Are they holding off pending the CAS hearing - or is something else hindering their progress ? If not - then we must assume that despite club's governance failings, Worksafe do not have sufficient evidence to prosecute for administering drugs to employees without maintaining appropriate records? Surely the waivers the players signed prior to program do not protect the club from all its health and safety obligations ? How is it that almost 3 years down the track Worksafe has been deafeningly silent?

I've said it before but I wonder whether any thought is given to having membership tents outside the ground after games? With people riding high after a good win and perhaps a few beverages it could be the perfect time to get people in to commit for the year. Obviously would only be worthwhile after a win but I reckon if they had a tent or two set up outside the ground yesterday they may have got a few hundred extra sign ups.

Couldn't agree more.

In fact I saw a very frustrated Melbourne supporter at half time.Given the early start she arrived during the second term - and was most frustrated when she was told in the Demon Shop at half-time that they were "too busy" to sell her a membership ticket! Club volunteers give up evenings calling potential members : with a strike rate of one or two per hour - yet the club turns away supporters with credit cards in hand who arrive late at the first match of the season.

After a decade of abuse from frustrated fans following Round One drubbings , I can understand staff insisting on security guard protection at the membership tent - but you'd like to think that the membership department had a contingency plan in place to cover the possibility that one year we might actually be in front at every change !!.

Come on - where's the faith?

3AW's Sam McClure said well-respected Geelong CEO Brian Cook was shaping as a possible target for the Demons at season's end, and was a major factor in Bartlett offering Jackson just the single year.

"Bartlett has allegedly claimed he believes he has a very good chance of landing Brian Cook and has elected to keep his options open at season's end," McClure said on Sports Today.

"Given that Jackson's contract is in the region of $600,000 and is not far short of 50 per cent less than what it would take to move Cook, it's regarded as a bold prediction by the club President and a costly one for a club that receives significant funding from the AFL.

"Not all were happy with the state of play and it's believed it played a significant role in the resignation of two recently retired board members.

"Their view was that Jackson's performance and relationship with the AFL has been more than worthy of an extension and that Bartlett risks losing Jackson unless he relents and offers him a longer term deal by mid-season."

According to this it seems it was from the recent past board members 'Bob'.

I have no knowledge of this whatsoever - but make two observations

1. Given the critical importance of having a strong consistent CEO in place over the next 3-5 years - to stabilize the organisation through the Roos- Goodwin transition - any Chairman worth his salt would be looking hard at his options right now.

2. Where there's smoke there's fire!

Just hope that any fire is only a controlled burn off - which you need from time to time.

I still ask the question - what happened to the Essendon Football Club's records of what was injected into the players' bodies during 2011/12?

In the absence of a satisfactory response from the players then I am comfortably satisfied that they took TB4 but nobody seems willing to confront this dilemma.

Evans was - but Hird shafted him and has bluffed everyone since - except a couple of judges, ASADA - and hopefully the tribunal.

"How to bury your head in the sand, take a full salary ,swan off overseas and take a few blind fans with you!"

He lived in Canberra at one stage didn't he

Just to push the boundaries a little...... If I was the AFL I would come down on Essendon like a tone of bricks. I would be urging, privately or publicly, that the maximum penalty be enforced. I would also be looking for club punishments and for as many as possible to be kicked out of the game. I would do all I could to make the club unworkable. Once it was on its knees I would then suggest they might like to move to Tassie. As a relocated team they could access a large fund to re-establish and get back on their feet..... Break them down, get them to do as I require and what I see as best forthe competition and then build them backup.

Tassie Bombers..... Got a ring to it....

Take a big picture view of this...

A prominent team in a high profile indigenous sport has breached the international doping code - and has attempted to avoid prosecution through a series of challenges to the legality of the investigatory process.

Should the independent Board of Commissioners overseeing that sport take a conciliatory view by imposing a series of short term measures designed to preserve the status quo - or draw a line in the sand and say enough is enough - we need to rise above this - we are withdrawing your licence and handing the 18th licence to a fresh new organisation?

That sport will lose friends - and money - in the short-term - but in the long-term it will be able to hold its head high as a pure competition which doesn't tolerate cheats..

Ultimately - and certainly if WorkSafe prosecute the organisation - that may well be the decision confronting the AFL. If - as we continue to hear - the other 17 clubs are united in their condemnation of the Little Herd Show - it must be getting closer to the Agenda.

The Tassie Bombers hmm....?

What continues to worry me about this whole fiasco is the difficulty involved in identifying the individuals who got each injection.

I have no doubt that ASADA has sufficient evidence to comfortably satisfy the tribunal that at least 30 syringes of a banned substance were emptied into the veins of a group of 34 Essendon players - but whether or not they can establish that all 34 got an injection and that not one syringe was lost or damaged is another matter.

If even just one syringe went astray the defence lawyers will have a ball arguing first one player , and then another ....and then another ... and etc,....... was the (un) lucky one to miss out!!

Surely the difficulty in this case lies in attaching dosages to particular individuals. Hird and his co-conspirators destroyed the trail to individuals long ago - which is why Worksafe should be queued up to prosecute the club regardless of the Tribunal's final decision!

Lane writes:

That the voice of cycling through much of the world was speaking in this way says much for the burden carried by anti-doping agencies in "big fish" cases. Successful sports stars attract loyalty to an extent that is often irrational. Many supporters will not countenance serious questioning of their behaviour.

He is spot on - just replace "big fish" by EFC or Hird.

I have long admired Tim Lane the broadcaster - but not always Tim Lane the journalist.

On this occasion he is absolutely right. His point is well made ... and well-timed!!

The Casey move seems to be another of Schwabs "build it and they will come" plans. I fail to see how training out there occasionally, visiting some schools and having a poor alignment with the local VFL side is going to recruit new supporters to the club. If it was a new area to footy we were targeting fair enough but this is only half an hour or so from the CBD. Unlikely to be too many unaligned people out there.

Unusual to see a post suggesting that Casey is too close to the CBD to attract new supporters !!

As I have said above the biggest problem with Casey is the continuing perception that it is a wobbly alliance - that Melbourne will walk away from as soon as it has the finances to do so.

Hawthorn has complete on-field control over the Box Hill Hawks ( formerly the Box Hill Mustangs).Do we aspire to have total on-field control over Casey ? If so we need to bury the unhelpful history of the Springvale "Scorpions" and lock in our claim to the growing gateway into Gippsland through a long-term investment in the Casey "Demons".

"What's in a name?" many of you may ask. In this case, I'd suggest quite a lot . Given a say in the matter why would Melbourne want its overflow players to play for a separately- badged club - and why would it use the logo of a separately-badged club as an entree into a community ahead of a jointly-badged option.

The Casey Scorpions website needs a bit of maintenance - but everything about it - including its Board - suggests that it retains control over all key decisions - including the brand. Although the Casey FC has struggled to survive we didn't have the financial strength to impose our own conditions on the alignment when it was first established. Is that still the case?

If not - launch the Casey Demons.

I must admit that while I went often to Sandy, Casey has really put me off.

It is quite far to travel, is cold and windy and has no atmosphere, even for VFL games.

I don't think the Casey experiment has improved our membership either.

If we were to have a stand alone VFL team, which seems to be the way most clubs are heading, then playing somewhere like Elsternwick/Prahran, with new facilities and reasonable ground control could have many advantages, not least of all, better attendances at VFL games.

In the initial negotiations with Casey we committed to a 20 year arrangement. I'm not sure whether the commitment was purely a commitment to use the property ( for summer training etc) or a commitment to support the Casey Scorpions. If it is the latter I can live with it as long as we control all on-field decisions. I would like to re-badge the team the "Casey Demons" to make it very clear that we intend to stay.

There is significant development taking place in the area - and it is the gateway to the growing Gippsland region. Given our poor on-field performance over the last few years, we would have struggled to grow supporters from a VFL presence anywhere in the State especially in the Eastern suburbs where Hawthorn has its stronghold.

Us Demonlanders don't particularly like driving out to Casey. The question is how many '000's of footy fans 20 years from now will enjoy the short drive in to Casey to support Melbourne!.

If the intention is to retain the Scorpion logo as a throw back to the Springvale roots of the club - and as a sign that Melbourne has only a "loose" affiliation which won't outlast the minimum contractual obligation, then I'd back a move back towards the city asap.

I'm very keen to know Jackson's view of the Casey arrangement.Surely It is fundamental to our player development program. Are we committed - or are we just biding our time until we have the $$$ to field our own team?

. All I am saying this is a strong test for the integrity of the Andrews Government given the Premier's very strong personal interest in the subject, and subject to all the propaganda which has come out of his club for the last three years.

I hope he doesn't fail the test.

All I am saying is that the political odds must surely weigh heavily in favour of him passing the test. A significant chunk of the public expect Essendon to be punished !

That article sums up the Hird supporter camp position: everyone is against him because he is great and there is no evidence otherwise.

I'd suggest he should be sacked purely for his involvement in the "uncontrolled pharmaceutical experiment" that was identified in the initial report (and in Essendon's own internal report).

He was in charge. He failed a duty of care. Isn't that all he needs to lose his job?

Agree with that.Surely Hird's only defence against a WorkSafe action is that others - the CEO and the Board - were responsible- and that he was just following orders - which just doesn't wash

I know he has to stay right out of it, but the question is will he? This is totally different from ASADA/WADA, WADA in particular is a totally independent body completely divorced from the Australian mainstream.

Worksafe (Vic) is not. The pollies can and do interfere with it as is their wish. My bet is that Andrews will kill the investigation into ESSENDON stone dead. Any political fallout will be minor compared to his hero status at EFC. I know Worksafe is supposed to be independent, but given the behaviour of the building unions and what they have been able to get away with under previous Labor Administrations, I wouldn't count on much independent action.

WADA will prevail. No credit to anyone in Australia though except the outstanding work of ASADA.

You paint a very unflattering picture of politicians - particularly Labour politicians!!

Not sure you can say that the "political fallout will be minor compared to his hero status at EFC". Not only will he alienate supporters of 17 other clubs- but also the non-AFL section of the community who expect cheats to be punished. There is also a relatively quiet ( to date?) - but not insignificant group of Essendon supporters who expect those who have dragged the club's image through the mud to be called to account for their actions..

Can't see his Labor friends at Fairfax Media condoning any interference designed to spare Mr and Mrs Hird !!

Ask anyone in the VAFA - and they'll tell you that Elsternwick Park is a crock. The drainage is appalling - and the" landscaping" has created a wind tunnel which seems to affect the game even on relatively still days. The changing rooms etc are very average. For a number of years A Grade Clubs were rostered to play one or two games a season at the venue. Three cheers echoed around the clubs when that practice was stopped a season or two ago !! The area is dominated by the golf course - and any development of the oval and its surrounds would cut into space the golfers would probably like to see converted into a carpark.

I reckon the Age article is picking up two genuine issues. St Kilda's desperation to find a suitable venue - and the failure of the VAFA to maintain a quality venue at the site. A fair chunk of the crowd for this year's VAFA finals watched the game from a temporary scaffold grandstand erected in front of the main building . The VAFA are clearly struggling to take advantage of the facility.

Might help St Kilda's case to throw Melbourne into the mix - but I cant see any logic in Melbourne getting involved - for all the valid reasons noted in this thread

It is one thing to be against Hird's return (most of the more astute Essendon powerbrokers are) it is another thing entirely to support appropriate and substantial penalties on players, management (including Hird) and Directors. They will all fight to the death on that one. The question is - will Andrews?

The independence of the judiciary is paramount .

As proper legal mechanisms - through both ASADA and WorkSafe- can ( SHOULD) attack Essendon - Andrews has to stay right out of it. Supporters groups are separate from the club - but Andrews would be well advised to step down as Chair of the Spring St Bombers before a perceived conflict a least ,arises. As Premier he can easily say that he'll be too busy. He should do it now

ill tell you what - if it turns out hirdy has been as negligent as we all think, and is proven so in court (Ie worksafe or the CAS), hirdy will find himself absolutely friendless. cant imagine any essendon fans with any power supporting him in any way.

Courtesy the EFC ( or is it Little Paul?) James has spent the last 12 months developing his international cv and his international business network. So he and Tania won't be completely sunk when their cred in this town disappears completely!

It will be interesting to see whether the new Premier Daniel Andrews (a life long ESSENDON supporter and I think I am right in saying is current President/Chairman of the "Spring Street Bombers", a cross party parliamentary lobby/supporter group set this year by Paul Little in the Victorian parliament) will seek to influence a Victorian Worksafe investigation into this debacle.. No doubt Little and the AFL will be lobbying him hard to do so, and will be a very good test of his leadership.

That's an in interesting pick up Dees 2104.

No wonder Little Paul has a reputation as a tough street fighter who isn't easily beaten. You've won the election Dan - suggest you resign as Chair of the " Spring Street Bombers" while you're ahead!

I just don't believe that is how WorkSafe Victoria operates. And nor should it. They might use evidence collected elsewhere but to completely outsource an investigation is in breach of its charter and dereliction of its duty.

There is a difference between outsourcing an investigation and following information trails laid by others.

I presume the reason WorkSafe haven't acted already is not that they are waiting to collect evidence from the court- but because any action they take would be seen to prejudice the ASADA case. As they do not need to establish that specifically identifiable illegal substances were involved - I'm not sure that any WorkSafe statements would be prejudicial - but I guess Little Hird's lawyers would argue that they were.

We've waited this long - I guess we can wait a bit longer!

The 2014 VFL fixture came out during the week.

Highlights:

The Casey Scorpions will start the season at home against Frankston in Round 1.

Round 6 will see the Scorpions host a night game against Richmond at Casey Fields.

New coach Justin Plapp will not have to coach against his old club Williamstown till Round 18.

Casey plays 11 games against 2014 finalists.

With Bendigo Gold out of the competition, there will be a bye every week and each team will have two byes for the season with the Scorpions' byes coming in Round 7 & 11.

Really keen to know KC.........

Is there any possibility of a name change to the Casey Demons ?

Until and unless there is - many will continue to regard the Casey- Melbourne affiliation as a temporary one.- which is no good for either club.

The suggestion that Melbourne's VFL-affiliate might play at Punt Road is an illustration of that temporary mind-set.

Does Shannon Byrne's appointment reflect stronger oversight from Melbourne than may have been the case previously?

I have no affiliation with Gutnick but this view is mis-worded or just wrong. Either way it gets up my frock.

If Joe had not thrown $3 million into the ring we would not exist. He didnt cheat or make the wrong decisions. He hired the executives he was advised to and they seemed to be competant. Nobody then knew how how badly they phoned in their work.

Dont forget a few here who still pot Joe were behind Szondy. Money talks and BS it seems stinks forever. /end rant

Not mis-worded - and definitely not wrong. Many here who backed Szondy were really backing Robbie Flower.

Men like Ian Dicker, David Evans, David Smorgon and Peter Gordon managed to donate considerably more to their respective clubs than Szondy's predecessor ever donated to his. - without arranging even one headline article. But then of course, their principal motivation wasn't self-promotion

2.7 million.

Correct - and a fair chunk of that was "in kind" - like free access to underused properties..

Love this extract from Rita's article:

She is of course absolutely right on the money.

Ever since the day Hird effectively drove his long-standing mate, David Evans, out of the job - allowing Little to come in - Eseendon's behaviour has been shambolic.

Of all of Little's irrational decisions, the decision to fund Hird;s international studies is the most bizarre. Here he is underwriting Hird's business future outside football. Where was Essendon's coach for 2015 on the day of the rookie draft ? In Europe securing a few letters after his name! What does Hird - or is it Tania (?) - have on Little Paul ?

I keep saying it - but surely Workcover is going to trump everyone else on this eventually?

I believe it was in the Gutnick era and it was decided that it would put us too much in debt although I stand to be corrected.

If true could be seen as a wise decision at the time considering what was to come or not.

I have it on very good authority that when Gutnick prevaricated - Eddie jumped in. In no sense could it be called a wise decision.It is one of the reasons I shudder whenever anyone mentions the "Gutnick era".

It was an opportunity to cement our future in the MCG precinct - and we let it go to the enemy.It may well have led to seemingly crippling levels of debt - but the AFL would have kept us afloat and the MCC would have had reason to re-embrace us even more fully than they have.It would have given us the profile necessary to attract far greater corporate support than we have obtained.

Anyway this thread is about Casey. Let's hope we continue to build the alliance.

I would like to think we could work with Casey as the Casey Demons - with Demons replacing Scorpions on the club logo. Casey might see this as weakening its local identity. But the Scorpion ties it back to Springvale as much as to the wider region Casey now represents.The tag " Demon" gives the alignment a more permanent feel - and might help change the divisive perceptions that surround decisions to send Melbourne listed players on holiday at VFL finals time

I would have thought that if they are all found guilty of the same offence, then they would all receive the same penalty... anything else and I would think that WADA would have something to say about it.

I would think that the first year players could reasonably argue that - having been grilled to buy into team routines etc - they just followed the leaders. They could hold out for a lesser penalty on the basis that they assumed that what the established group did was normal - legal- practice at an AFL club. The tribunal could go some way to appeasing the "innocent victims lobby" by recommending leniency for the new recruits etc.

Regardless of the PR war, I actually think that the Tribunal ought to come down especially hard on the leadership group. As senior professionals charged with responsibility for leading their teammates - and with heftier contracts to boot - they cannot reasonably argue that they were duped by the "club"

In all this I could live with some players wearing some penalty - even a discounted penalty - as the basis for hitting Hird with the sledgehammer he deserves. It is absurd that through all this Little has funded an international training course to set Hird up for a life without football. I'm not sure that a sanction for a breach of the ASADA code would disqualify him from accepting directorships etc - but it would surely make it hard for him in this town.

Even a one month penalty for one player would sink Hird - and that would be justice!!

Then I'd like to sit back and watch Workcover do its job!!

I seem to be in the minority that think the Essendon players and coach will not be found guilty by the AFL/ASADA investigations for taking banned substances. I just don't think the link or evidence is strong enough despite believing personally that the doping took place.

Essendon will, however, have the book thrown at them by Workcover Victoria who will give a more crippling penalty than ASADA/AFL could ever give. Essendon will get what they deserve it just wont be the way the general public expect.

I don't understand why the media aren't aren't all over Workcover's relevance to all this. Failure to maintain a safe workplace is a criminal offence.Subjecting your employees to an experimental drug regime is unsafe even if your employees aren't professional athletes - with an obligation to steer clear of a list of particular performance-enhancing drugs.

IF essendon get smashed come afl tribunal and ASADA's evidence is released, making it clear to one and all that its clearly negligent governing (in addition to other things), then workcover would be a disgrace if they didnt get involved.

The Little person should be saving his ammo for the Workcover Warriors - they could obliterate the whole place!!

In terms of penalties that will REALLY hurt those responsible, the ASADA action is really just a warm up. Waiting in the wings is Workcover - with undeniable evidence that Essendon did not provide a safe workplace for its employees through 2012.

The Essendon Board are spending time and money trying to protect themselves from a couple of balsa wood gliders when several squadron of fully armed swing wing jet fighters are fuelling up just over the horizon preparing to escort a long line of nuclear powered armour-plated missle launchers into Tania Hird's little protectorate..

Big men take longer to mature physically - and to coordinate their movements. Anyone who's done what he's done has extraordinary willpower and determination. If he's the no 1 ruckman in the SANFL, he must be able to play.

For the balance of our list I reckon we need to take a punt with a big man and a quick small forward in the rookie draft.

Sounds just like pick no. 2 to me.

Did he jump or was he pushed?

Almost certainly the latter - don't think its in his DNA to shy away from leadership challenges. Either way I think its in the best interests of both Jack and the club.

Hope he has a bumper season !!