beelzebub

might well be that ( 750 ) front loaded at 900 but....who knows...only rumours

It's that 2-1/2 hours as you put it when push becomes shove. When theory becomes practice ...when anything actually matters.. We don't get graded or awarded premiership points for any other occasion. So as that's when it matters most; YEP !!

I think he should step down. Thats my answer to the question. There's no facility really for that to happen though as currently the coach of the moment prefers the dual cap model. My opinion is that is a flawed model. Do we have Co coaches ? No we have many but only ONE senior . So ought be with captaincy imho. Its all rather moot but its an avenue for comment by us.

Though I do understand the mechanics of may or may not be possible, thats not actually the question the OP proffers. Its ask should he. Not will he, not can he..but it is asking us, Demonlanders what we think. I think he should

The problem I have with using the injuries as a 'get out " to missing finals is that it's actually a furphy. On any given day you can only play with the personnel you have agaisnt the personnel they have at a ground where conditions are the same for both. It all comes down to the day. had we decided to turn up prior to some games its entirely reasonable to argue we might have won those games as we manged to win the rest of it ( just lost ). Other games we had the wrong people in the wrong positions for too long. Some games we just pushed shlt uphill needlessly ( entirely out of the box ) Despite these kpp injuries" many of these games were still there for the winning. I agree about the headspace though. Those on the ground were often , ...well not at the ground !!

You presume; then argue as fact. Sorry not the case Goodwin appoints co captains also Quite clear this was a decision by the club, not the players, as if it really ever would be. Tails dont wag dogs The Poll is about Jones's role. 50% suggest he ought not. I don't see the question about Viney. You are correct though , we have no say in it.. This is where we can comment though. Cheers

and Im the ones playing games ? Co Captains, that was the coaches decision Was the captain voted on ?

Can I suggest that this is a running appraisal. It's not to suggest he is either doing a bad job or hes a good coach...either or etc. Its where he currently sits. How is he going ? Are we satisfied ? are there areas of concern ? All of those can be answered independently. Without doubt season 2018 will put 2017 into perspective give a context to any further views as to how well Goodwin is going. None of that however, in my view, detracts form the ability to consider how it's all going to date. I have concerns. Others have same or similar. I also had concerns about Roos. Many in the football world and general populace consider Melbourne's list to be right up there. I'll stop being concerned the day more silverware is put into the trophy case. Not looking anytime soon right at this moment. Two steps forward and one back makes for a bloody long journey.

Deserves to be repeated here Hmm for some reason whole post doesnt seem to replicate...so here it is. "Most of the list probably had 6 ordinary games in 2017. Many of our list haven't improved their ball use over a few seasons. But that doesn't seem to matter - ball use clearly isn't something that we consider important. Nor does running off the ball, nor making intelligent leads, nor stopping your opponent from being third man up in the marking contest. Nor shepherding, nor blocking for teammates. It's all about smashing in for contested ball, or bombing it into the f50. "

It is actually probably the only reason to tell the truth. Pointless having No Captain out there. So circumstances again ( as often ) dictate the outcome. So we effectively have a person captaining by default. General opinion 50/50 Hardly a resounding endorsement.

a most pleasant surprise

How do we know a black hole exists ? It and of itself is almost impossible to discern so we look to how elements around it react in order to paint for ourselves a picture of what must be. How do we know good Captaincy is in effect ? We look around the team ( and for mine especially on game day ) and see how its reacting to leadership. A players own game is his own responsibility but how you meld within a group structured environment and participate is as much a result of the individual as it it external influence. Possibly one of the most damning and consistent observations about our games is how bereft of leadership we seem during our games. As the Professor would ask....why is this so ? There is only one logical answer.

If there's one peg i choose to hang my hat on here it's not to allow for injuries , preseasons etc .I simply adjudge his value in terms of how he took to his limited opportunities . He seemed to think he could just ease himself back into the flow of things. By all means do that at kiddyland level but at AFL you need to hit the GO button , pedal to the metal. He has some very entertaining skills but not the mindset to go with it. He has a few mates in this respect but #16...your time is up mate.

Funny, as reading that thought exactly that.

Apart from any other considerations I'm not a fan of co-captains. Id be preferring Viney captain alone for this reason alone. Again each to their own.

ahhh youre right Well, my thoughts were if he actually had the qualities many are to afford him then yes he ought to step aside and allow another to take the reigns. A good leader would actually encourage it and possibly offer thoughts from a distance as it were. Good management practice is to train your replacement. that said...I'll go with facetious

Im sorry...what ?

and yet, maybe its just me but that's a totally different thing to being Captain; the whole point of this thread. Ive not issue with him being noted as a very good contributing player ( in the main ) I just don;t see the real game day leading out there...rallying of the troops etc. Tbh sometimes I dont even see him for a whole qtr ( but then hes not alone there ) He comes across as one of the most intro-type players going around.It all seems quite surreal at times actually. I realy cant see him being a happy chappy if his badge is taken off of him, but there comes a time. No one thought less of Nick when he stood down, quite the opposite actually. Real leaders know when its time to allow another to do the job.

A very interesting observation. Shows how important it is to maintain a core of players together as they evolve through the years. Always be afew that come and go but we've a desert ( currently ) Hopefully will change.

Im not the greatest 'Jones for captain' but i would say it was his efforts after half time against the Suns that rebooted things and got us there. That's a good thing. However it also highlighted to me his and out team's most notable failing. We get going too slowly and too late on many occasions. I dont mind Jones as a player and we missed some of his better attributes when injured but thats as a contributing player. I just dont see a lot of Captain's game about him. I never have. Others perfectly entitled to their view and vote. Id pass the baton in 2018.

Again it's an interesting thread . A subject I broached with RPFC a little while ago as he seemed to , like myself have a couple of reservations about how the team's been coached in 207 and that Goodwin like any of the players is in fairness subject to review. There will always be the inclination of some to edge towards polarisation. Either he's good, or he's bad. All very black and white but this Melbourne and we ought to do things differently. When approaching a subject as coaching and indeed its main protagonist Goodwin I suppose there are many level of metrics one can ( and ought ) apply. I would think the overbearing barometer is: are we any better ? I think we are. Many will roll out the barrow hauling injuries and suspensions as a sort of cause failalible. So what's been good , what's been fair to midly ? what's been somewhat regrettable ? It was suggested by powers upon high that this season ( 2017 ) we would play finals. we missed it by a cats whisker but truth be told that may well have saved us an embarrassment of sorts. In the context of season achievement how should we judge the coach? It's his first season !! give him some slack!! might be sentiments echoing around AAMI. It is however not as if he has stepped in off the street and taken up the baton. He's been around a whiles and will have taken on board much ( Id presume ) from watching Neil Craig , if from a players perspective , ingesting the methods of Thompson ( whilst hopefully forgetting everything about H**d ). He was chosen specifically and mentored by Roos. He's not a noob in the normal sense. It's simply his first official season. He won more than he lost. Not too bad at bat there, at first glance reversing the previous seasons 10W 12L for 12W 10 L. Some may well be pleased at this further climb up the ladder if only a small step.. All in all it really goes to describe the box and not the contents. Boxes are often misleading. If only marked against the season prior then it must be said Goodwin is going along ok. If however you overlay what we did upon what we might have done with reasonable expectations then the picture is not so glossy imho. There are glaring inadequacies in our game style and execution which can only in the end be the responsibility of the coach(es). Our starts to a lot of games was beyond poor to the point of not being measurable. That a joke( meme) would start that we only show up at qtr time is both damning and worrisome. Its the coaches job to prepare teams and get them in a state , physically and mentally to GO the second that first whistle goes. We were often Flinders Street platform 9 , this train is not going ( though arguably full of passengers !! ). These things can happen but that it should persist through the season and often against teams we ought to have punished from the get go raises for mine many questions. It's the Coach(es) job to get into the players' heads and prime them. This needs some very serious change. Roos was far from perfect as a game day strategist and often lethargic to respond. it's noted that Goodwin does indeed have a bag of tricks but Felix's it isn't, not just yet. As many note the"coming off the back of the square" was mildly brilliant. It's good right up until it isn't as they say and fairly soon that advantage become a crutch. You have to know when to hold them , know when to fold them, so says the gambler and it applies in any game really. You need to adapt. You need to do so not just from week to week , or from qtr to qtr but you have to be paying attention and when the mood and tide of a game switched violently against you you need to CHANGE it up right there and then. This can only happen if the underlying tactics and abilities are available and understood ( read practiced ). Good teams morph. To manifestly stick to a particular gamestyle when it's failing is possibly obstinate , arrogant or just plain stupid. It might also indicate a lack of any such game B's . I hope that's not the case This lack of response was seen on any number of occasions but it really came to bear ,somewhat coincidentally, at the two games where weather played a crucial part. As others note the Wind was no friend to the Demons. As long as Ive ever played footy or watched it rule 101 of "crap weather day" footy is keep it simple. Against the wind and rain , keep it low , keep it out of the corridor and most importantly keep it ( the ball ). If you have to play the scrum game to inch up the field you do that. With the wind , absolute opposite let the wind be THEIR enemy. Let it sail, let it fly...kick the bloody thing and no stupid short passing. The north game was like a lesson in dumb footy.Yes we almost pinched it but couldnt and often through poor setting up ( for the day ). That should have been a massive lesson. I can only guess the club suffered from group amnesia and learnt absolutely nothing going in against a much much better rival ( than the Roos ) in the Giants. Here two worries surfaced ( for mine ) Firstly we just did all the dumb things again but to me more importantly we can't have done much research into where we were playing. It's like we brought a knife to a gunfight. More so was that we ignored any advice as to local conditions or considered our knowledge superior. Another lesson. Though these have been noted before it must raise a question as to how well we do actually learn anything. Goodwin is still learning (we all should be still learning til we push up daisies ) so he might get a hall pass on the first but the second abomination of a game beggars belief. Did NO oNE look at the winsocks/flags ?? Thinking on your feet is a hallmark of astute awareness. Goodwin did indeed at times demonstrate that he could actually change to suit. Both prior to games and during he was /is prepared to move certain players around back and front to alter effectiveness. This is a good thing. That we had to cover injuries to some very key personnel forced inventiveness and it came. Our roving brigade of pinch hitting ruckmen acquitted themselves with merit.. Halfbacks became forwards. KPD became KPF. Al positives for mine as it was horses for course stuff ( as it should be ) What then mystifies this writer is if you can think this way in one area why not others. We play a zone defence. We play the marvelous Demon Diamond of death.All well and good but it isnt that deadly. It will not work nor can if an opposition takes you on full frontal and mans up ( and more ) in their forward 50. Cattle dogs may herd sheep but a handful of defenders come unstuck mightily if the opposition wont play "our" game. The coach needs to be able to morph the defence if he holds any hope of stemming an onslaught. The most recent instance was the first qtr against the filth. Buckley knew exactly what he was going to face and exploited it to perfection. It boggles my mind that a team that can play such a wonderful attacking game that brings good ol run and carry through the guts relying on catching defending napping or out of position can itself no see it' is vulnerable to exactly the same . In this sense you can't claim to not understand the mechanics of this style of play so why allow yourself to be bested by it ? There's a lot of work still to be done here. Maybe Goodwin is waiting for better and more able soldiers ? Hopefully theyre doming then. Our forward structure.....I could just leave it blank here as I'm buggered if I know what it is. We seem to work best when we suddenly have the ball into our forward 50 and players are running and things just happen. As to any Structured attack or ploys, well , youve got me !!. cant be kicking to presenting forwards, cant be kicking to practiced marking with intent of crumbing, cant be lowering eyes to anyone 40 out dead in front. I'm sure it's not any of these because we just dont seem to do it. Why not Simon ? Sometimes we just happen to get something right but it really seems more fortunate accidents than design. This all goes to another area Im confused about. Why we persist with players who just arent up to it( or out of form ) Some selections at the table seem mystifying at times and positively bewildering when repeated after failure the following week(s). Simon the quiet one. Like it or not in this day and age it befalls the Coach to front the media in most instances when a representative is required to explain the goings and shortcomings of a team.Whilst we cant all be as accomplished and media savvy as Roos ,Simon will hopefully learn to utilise these opportunities to advantage. Whilst I cant stand the whinging of the Scotts I can understand their use at times of pushing an agenda or setting a scene for discussion in their favour. Gawn was be mercilessly killed by the umps but I didnt hear you say much Simon. Just some cryptic tweets from Max. Im going to end it here or it could go on for a while and its not my intention to maximise word use but just to convey some frustrations. All in all I give Goodwin a pass. I'll give him much benefit of doubt. We had a rubbish year of injury and yet for all of that I feel we gave away games through poor design and execution. Someone much shoulder that. I suppose the opposite side to the coin is that all the areas we did poorly in become opportunities to do better next year. If we are still discussing the same areas of failure this time next year Id be scanning the horizon for a new coach because it means we have learnt nothing. We all can make mistakes and that of itself is not failure. To repeat it is. Go Dees

Just a quick note on this..I doubt he would. he seemed to most certainly have his nose out of joint when Viney was made co-captain. If at all possible I too would like to see Jones hand over the mantle and generously allow the team to evolve to where it will.As valiant a player I dont think he that man for this job going forward. ( much reading of posts still to go) very interesting thread . Thanks RPFC

That Rioli goes alright eh. Shame we couldn't have got him ............

Hardly hindsight bias as that invokes the notion of selective review. It in the main is the opposite, looking at an overview of goid and bad results where thered seem to be much to suggest not's all as rosey as might be portrayed.

A good read. Many salient points. Might wait for a keyboard to add/respond.